Jesus and Murder

Originally posted by jammerman
lilblam, it seems very apparent to me that you "believe" that knowledge is "the way". But at the same time you say that people shouldn't have beliefs. I'm confused by this... it seems contradictory.
Could you please clarify how you define "belief"?

You're right, language is a big pain in the ass
Belief in my understanding, is a conviction that something is true, when you don't REALLY know it. For example, do I know that I'll wake up tomorrow if I go to sleep tonight? No I don't. I may HOPE to wake up, and I may have a high probability of waking up, but is it not pointless to just BELIEVE that I will? That would mean I "pretend to know", which would not be true. Anything can happen overnight, any robber can get into the house, any cataclysm, a meteorite, you name it... so no one really knows. So belief to me is to be convinced that you know something, without actually knowing it to be true. It may help in socializing situations like "I believe I deserve this bonus" etc... but it has no merit in reality from my perspective. The reality is, your opinion is that you deserve it, but that's your personal view based on your own personal evaluation... but you're not the one giving the bonus, are you So belief isn't necessary, it seems to replace actual knowledge. So the actual knowledge would be to ASK your boss if you will get it, have the answer be "yes", then you KNOW he at least means to give it to you (unless he's a pathological liar).
Having a probability of something, still doesn't require belief. Just leave it at a high probability. Belief makes it seem like a certainty, when it's not.

Belief is a perspective from a given point in space in time by consciousness IMHO. Why is that bad? Do you not "believe" that when you go to sleep you will dream? or wake up? Why? Because that is your level of understanding given your place on the path.

Belief and knowledge are not mutually exclusive.

Please read this and tell me if it makes sense. Like I said, language is a big pain in the ass but see if the explanation on this site makes sense.

www.jovialatheist.com...

On the contrary, both are necessary to move forward for if you did not have knowledge, you would have nothing to base your "beliefs" on. If you did not have belief in the knowledge you have acquired to be true, then you would not act on it. Our actions ARE the culmination of our beliefs as well as the knowledge we have obtained up to this point in time and space. Wouldn't you agree?

I'm wondering if your perspective on "belief" is stemming from your "belief" that "belief" is acceptance of dogma or following without seeking or knowing or accepting. Am I close?

As for belief in Jesus. I believe in Jesus. I believe that because he has transcended this world, that he is Lord over it and hence has the power to accept or absorb the karma of those of us who choose to accept that gift that he offers: Grace. He represents the perfect sacrifice for the karma of the world. Why do I "believe" in Jesus? Because I have obtained enough knowledge to lead me to openness of the "experience" of forgiveness and grace. Through that experience I have been transformed. The news of the Gospel is NOT Hell and Brimstone... it is forgiveness and grace. The Roman Catholic Church which is NOT the same as the church that JESUS' Disciples started. Don't get them confused. Catholicism is an "Institutionalized" version of Christianity created by Constantine around 300BC.

Did you mean 300AD? (just wondering, I dunno).

From there on many of the teachings of Christianity have been distorted and fear of God was used by the RCC as a means of control. Replace fear of GOD with LOVE for GOD and fear will never have to enter the equation again.
I'm ramblin now as I'm tired so g'nite.

In peace,

+Jammer

Well, do you understand that if you have enough knowledge, you would have nothing to forgive? The only reason you hold a grudge or are angry, is lack of knowledge. You simply act on an emotion. But no one can hurt you in any way if you have the knowledge... and you wouldn't let emotions control you. So therefore, forgiveness is instant. You simply understand the lack of perception of the person who is attempting to do you harm, you can put yourself in their place and understand their possibly confused state of mind and mental process, and you obviously cannot get angry. You do not care if someone steals from you. So what? You don't care if someone attacks you... your physical body is of no consequence. But don't get me wrong, if you have enough awareness/knowledge you would easily anticipate any attack and if you chose, it would never succeed. For example, the knowledge of Kung Fu. Or what Jesus probably had, the knowledge to see both the past and the future, so he'd know ahead of time what, if anything, anyone is planning against him. He can choose to let it happen, or choose to calmly walk outta the way WAY before it occurs.

Imagine knowing ahead of time what your opponent will do, what punches he will throw, and every single possible attack he does.. you know in advance. You can stand there blindfolded and your hands tied behind yoru back, and he'd not be able to even touch you! That's what knowledge and expanded awareness can do... if you strive for it.

Oh yeah, he is not your "opponent" either, enemies are an ignorant concept anyway

So read that website that I gave the link to above and lemme know if it makes any sense to you.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
thanks for your bible quotes Sarah.

and thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this, however I am still very much confused about this.

I want specifics from the New Testament or the Bible that says what you guys interpret it to say. Don't just say the bible says or Jesus says....give me a reference to see these things for myself.

Anyone can interpret the bible to suit their views. I want to read specifics for myself to better understand how these interpretations are made.

Truth, thanks for your input and offer, can you tell me where in the bible it says what you quote. again I want to read these things for myself.

fyi I read the bible before cover to cover, and this is my 6th attempt to study it and understand the message. I certainly believe a man named Jesus lived on earth and spread a very wise message...but that is about it.

Deep and Lilblam, I totally understand your points of view about knowledge and I realize that the bible is a story open to interpretation. But I am trying to really understand the issue of Jesus and Murder.

The bible says it's okay to stone rebellious children to death (see oxmank's thread) but then again in the 10 commandments it says "Thou shall not Kill". These are the type of contradictions that have me confused.

Don't try to rationalize it, or your head might explode

It has been written by many different people for many different purposes, most of them to control. Why would ANYONE be surprised that there are huge contradictions and issues there? Oh yeah, because they "believe" otherwise. Damn there goes belief again...

Did you really expect it to be completely uniform? Who do you think wrote it, the Holy Spirit? Well it says it was written by the Holy Spirit (I think it says it, u can check), but since when do we take every invisible entity's word for it? But that's already a BIG assumption that some invisible entity dictated the whole thing... considering the tons of contradictions and inconsistencies. That must be the most confused, and bewildered holy spirit ever...

Mem wrote it llblam, and wrote the stories of accounts they had of God.


worldwatcher, let me give you asincere response, since it does seem as though your searching as hard as possible with a sincere tone.





They ordered stonings in the old testament times for capital punishement, like the death penalty now but with stones, much less technology. they would put a person through trial, find witnesses and see if they were guilty and convict them.


If any prophet killed a person on their own judgement and acount then they would be commiting unlawfull judgement and commit sin.


Today it still exist with the death penalty althoug I don'tbelieve in it, becase after Jesus came it is the time of mercy and forgiveness. These are the times to repent and forgive. this is why Jesus manifested his new sacrafice prophecied throughout the OT, and baptism which cleanses us from original sin, and told us to forgive everybody as I have forgiven you.



Jesus died for the very sins that would get people put to death, and these sin do not equal a death sentence anymore if they ask for forgiveness through christ.




peace

Seems rather naive to expect someone else to pay for YOUR "sins". You want Jesus to be responsible for what you do? Can anyone honestly stand there and say, it doesn't matter what I do, because all the responsibility rests on Jesus?

Personally, I am responsible 100% for every little thing I do, not anyone else. I don't care what the "Church" tells me, they are guessing based on their own ignorance and desire to avoid responsibility.

This responsibility is your own creation, as you learn from your own actions. You won't learn anything if someone else "saves" you or mitigates the direct result of your mistakes. You only learn if you suffer the consequences of your action, whatever they may be. But the "church" is not known for spreading knowledge... they spread dogma and encourage belief. Enough said

Also, you said men wrote it from their experiences with God... but it's just their experiences with something they THINK is God.. don't confuse truth and opinion.

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by lilblam]

The obvious is right in front of you people the Cassiopaean Cult is responsible for the death of Jesus in the past.

Originally posted by Truth
Mem wrote it llblam, and wrote the stories of accounts they had of God.

worldwatcher, let me give you asincere response, since it does seem as though your searching as hard as possible with a sincere tone.

They ordered stonings in the old testament times for capital punishement, like the death penalty now but with stones, much less technology. they would put a person through trial, find witnesses and see if they were guilty and convict them.

If any prophet killed a person on their own judgement and acount then they would be commiting unlawfull judgement and commit sin.

Today it still exist with the death penalty althoug I don'tbelieve in it, becase after Jesus came it is the time of mercy and forgiveness. These are the times to repent and forgive. this is why Jesus manifested his new sacrafice prophecied throughout the OT, and baptism which cleanses us from original sin, and told us to forgive everybody as I have forgiven you.

Jesus died for the very sins that would get people put to death, and these sin do not equal a death sentence anymore if they ask for forgiveness through christ.
peace

Truth I understand your beliefs, but you are not answering my question, where in the bible does it say that????? also if stoning was a form of capital punishment, approved in the bible, why are so many Christians now against the death penalty???? Please give me Bible or New Testament references...I cannot accept someone's words without collaborating text, especially when the text is what Christians base most of their beliefs on.

rofl oh hey who decided to drop in and make some noise! Hi Dreamrebel!

Great Denver Airport mural!

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by lilblam]

Its like talking to a microphone, once you say what you say, you have explain what you say over and over because soeone cant understand for themselves.



you are either being sincere lilblam, or are trying to catch me in something.




But Jesus pays for sin as a sacrafice. He (sacraficed his body so that our sins may be forgiven. But we will pay for every sin we commit, as the bible explains many times and I could go over a few passages that state we will pay for our sins as christ did.




we will not get off free. you cant sit there and say that Im forgiven so I can sin all day, it don't work like this.






also how do you know men wrote what they thought was God? Do you know for certain?





peace.

Hello Lilblam. Good morning and yes I am here to counter your non-sense again today.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I may have mentioned something similar in another thread, but it is something that bothers me about my views on Christianity. Christian's say if you repent sincerely and truly believe in Jesus all your sins will be forgiven and you get to go to heaven.

Now my problem with this is that most serial killers, rapists, murderers, skum of the earth all repent and in their mind they sincerely accept Jesus before being executed.

Now I cannot accept that Jesus will forgive these people and let them into heaven. Personally I would not want to be in a heaven with those people, I never committed horrible deed, doesn't the good get rewarded?

Jesus believers please explain to me why Jesus would forgive these people and allow them in the same heaven as you, the good Christian?

and if you don't think Jesus would forgive them into heaven, then isn't that against your idealogy? Does not Jesus say he died for your sins?

Convicted Killer of 10 year Old Girl he Impregnated is Executed
Maintaining his innocence, a convicted killer was executed Wednesday for a 1991 triple slaying in which one victims was a 10-year-old girl pregnant with his child.
"I just want to say I am not sad or bitter with anybody," Edward Lagrone said in a brief final statement. "Like I've said from Day One, I didn't kill them. But I'm no better than the people that did."

He concluded by saying: "Jesus is Lord. That's all I have to say."

ap.tbo.com...

If this guy did infact impregnate this girl, he is guilty of the exact same sins as Semjaza et al who were judged just prior to the Flood. Jesjuah says about such people that it was better for them if they had been thrown into the sea with millstones around their necks.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Truth


Mem wrote it llblam, and wrote the stories of accounts they had of God.

Uh there you go.. you say it yourself! They wrote about what they thought came from God! You said it first, not me

Also, how can anyone else ever sacrifice themselves for anyone else's problems? Can you explain to me what you think that means? You're saying Jesus died for our sins, please tell me exactly what this means to you. To me it means he took away our free will and tried to remove our important lessons by removing the "negative" results that are created by "negative" actions from other people. Everyone is responsible only for themselves, and no matter how much you think your death will make someone else's existance easier, you'd be fooling yourself in your wishful thinking Do you agree?

World Watcher:
your welcome for the scriptures, it makes it easy to find what your looking for if you have a 'teen' bible, or a bible that is made for teens. (thats how long its been since ive looked at one). there are topic indexes and things that make looking up scriptures to answer your questions alot easier.
I did a google search, and found this website:
bible.gospelcom.net...
It is pretty much an online bible.
I typed in murder, and got a heck of alot of scriptures. I sure do hope that you find what you are looking for. Good luck, and I'm sure you will be happy with any path that you choose.

Sarah: Did I hear you laugh?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

lilblam,

Knowledge does not atone for karma. Knowledge still requires belief at the most fundamental levels. You act on your belief that the knowledge you have is true do you not? I agree that knowledge is very important to growth and understanding what we experience, but it cannot substitute for the experience itself.

The Jovial Athiest perspective puts its "faith" in the physical. "The mind is the greatest creation of the universe" Perhaps the physcial universe or lower dimensional levels, but Love supercedes knowledge and the mind and the physcial IMHO.

Before I forget, thank you for pointing out my error. 300 AD is correct. I was very tired last night.

Yes, we should question everything. That is natural to learning and believing without investigating is probably not the best path (at least for myself), but it isn't necessarily incorrect either. Because we cannot "step into another's soul" and experience everything from their perspective we should not judge other's points of views. But challenging them to test of knowledge and understanding I "believe" is healthy in all aspects of growth and development.

What is belief? What is Faith? Faith IS belief in something that cannot be known as you stated earlier. Why is faith so important? Well, what is the fundamental aspect of Faith? Trust. The pentultimate TRUST. Trust is the fundamental component in relationships. It is what binds two together and makes them more unified. I put my Faith in those I Love, but God first. I have never felt let-down by God. And I "Believe" that I never will.
I have to go for now as I am at work, but thanks for the stimulating discussion.

Peace Always,

+Jammer

Originally posted by Hamilton
Sarah: Did I hear you laugh?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Laugh? about what not looking at my bible in forever??? yeah probably!! It's been so long, but im not a strong beliver like i used to be, and i never will be again. I just remember lots of scriptures, and can be of some help, in these types of debates, and or questions, lol.

Originally posted by smilingsarah82

Originally posted by Hamilton
Sarah: Did I hear you laugh?

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Laugh? about what not looking at my bible in forever??? yeah probably!! It's been so long, but im not a strong beliver like i used to be, and i never will be again. I just remember lots of scriptures, and can be of some help, in these types of debates, and or questions, lol.

Naah, just saw your name and wanted to see if you remembered when Ralph, Gabe and Mike visited Abe and Sarah, and Ralph channeling God, heared Sarah laugh inside when he told Abe that his wife would beget a son one year later. "Yes you laughed!" he said after she denied having laughed.

Just for fun

Blessings,
Mikromarius

ooooooooh, lol, sorry, didn't relize thats what you meant. NOW im laughing!!!

You got it jammer man.


Its about trust, but it goes beyond trust, its a matter of him leading you into the perfect places at the perfect times, guiding your life, telling you in your head how to bcome a better person. have you ever heard a vvoice in your head that teaches you how to become moregracefull? Hes always watching and listening, leading your life into perfect situations until
we all reach his kingdom as a family. Ive sen him guide my life everystep of the way, through miracles aand stuff i cannot explain and to watch him work in my life and in othrs I know is simply amazing.


Its hard to believe hes there, but he is and I know it, an hur doesn't go by whee I don't talk to him in silence, and he listens and hears every word your saying.




This is faith, not craziness as athiest want you tobelieve, but real faith.





peace.

Originally posted by smilingsarah82
ooooooooh, lol, sorry, didn't relize thats what you meant. NOW im laughing!!!

Hehe. The bible can be quite fun. For instance, did you know that Adam didn't eat from the Tree of Wisdom? He did infact eat from the Tree of Life. For he was wise enough to call his wife Eve, which means Life. Therefore he ate from the Fruit of Life (and beat the Serpent at the same time, and earned supremacy over womankind in the same move), quite interresting. Jesjuah was the Second Adam. Adam vol. 2 so to speek. An upgraded Adam so to speek, Adam (Man) turned 'Yeshuwah (YHWH).

And did you know why the Serpent was the most cunning beast in the garden? It was because a serpent is the easiest thing to draw on the night sky. Most of the constellations, however, needs intelligence, knowledge and love to be drawn. And what do you know. God is the wisest of all of us, and he has decided there isn't any serpents in the Heavens anymore. Just ask Michael

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Truth
This is faith, not craziness as athiest want you tobelieve, but real faith.

Yes indeed it is, and don't listen to the people who says you are nuts having voices in your head. It's perfectly natural, and it has been like this since day one. For me it's as natural as normal speech. Infact, I believe that we communicated telepathically before we opened our mouths.........

Blessings,
Mikromarius