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Jesus and Murder

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posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:00 PM
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I may have mentioned something similar in another thread, but it is something that bothers me about my views on Christianity. Christian's say if you repent sincerely and truly believe in Jesus all your sins will be forgiven and you get to go to heaven.

Now my problem with this is that most serial killers, rapists, murderers, skum of the earth all repent and in their mind they sincerely accept Jesus before being executed.

Now I cannot accept that Jesus will forgive these people and let them into heaven. Personally I would not want to be in a heaven with those people, I never committed horrible deed, doesn't the good get rewarded?

Jesus believers please explain to me why Jesus would forgive these people and allow them in the same heaven as you, the good Christian?

and if you don't think Jesus would forgive them into heaven, then isn't that against your idealogy? Does not Jesus say he died for your sins?


Convicted Killer of 10 year Old Girl he Impregnated is Executed
Maintaining his innocence, a convicted killer was executed Wednesday for a 1991 triple slaying in which one victims was a 10-year-old girl pregnant with his child.
"I just want to say I am not sad or bitter with anybody," Edward Lagrone said in a brief final statement. "Like I've said from Day One, I didn't kill them. But I'm no better than the people that did."

He concluded by saying: "Jesus is Lord. That's all I have to say."

ap.tbo.com...


[Edited on 2-11-2004 by worldwatcher]




posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:22 PM
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worldwatcher?
First off, please take no offense to this, for none is meant....
Are you a Christian?
Or are you just highly critical of Christianity because you haven't really taken the time, though, argumentitively, you may feel or think you have, to understand the pretexts and concepts of "forgiveness", as accorded in the Bible?

In such, there are multiple interpretations, views, and beliefs on this concept of Christian "forgiveness". IMHO, untold amounts of scripture can be quoted in relation to this but I would simply encourage this:

Read the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard .




regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-2-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:26 PM
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Well according to my understanding of how things happen, it's not that you would be "forgiven", but you'd have to learn from your mistakes. When you do ANYTHING, it basically alters your frequency and slightly changes your "allignment" each time, either towards the light or the dark. The light represents knowledge. The dark represents lack of it.

If you do selfish things out of emotions, and basically serve self, you are lacking the knowledge that would otherwise prevent you from even wanting to do any of this. You will also begin to align yourself with other influences that follow the same path. Like attracts like. You will continue to learn lessons until you LEARN that knowledge and no longer have to do any of this, however "long" it takes you. You do things because you don't "know any better" because if you did, you wouldn't do service to self stuff. It is always a choice, and there is no "right" or "wrong", just choices and consequences. There is no "God" that will punish/reward you for anything... you get exactly what you ask for. Play in the dirt, and you get dirty!

Some people say, well God doesn't send you to Hell! You send yourself to Hell by being "evil". Not entirely accurate. The "Hell" that's being referred to is just continuing existance on the same level until you learn all the lessons of that level. If you are stuck on some lesson, you'll have to do it over and over until you learn. Who creates these lessons? You'd ask, why do you NEED to learn them to advance to a different level of existance? Well, the same reason you NEED to sit down and learn how to ride a bike to be able to race bikes professionally. It's just a natural way things work... to know something, you must learn. It is KNOWLEDGE that allows you to access higher forms of existance, nothing else. No "divine magic" or something
That's silliness!

No 2 people have the same exact path, but all have the same ultimate destination. But don't think of it from a linear perspective of a chain of events and a time frame. There is no time, and all happens simultaneously and in infinite variety.

Anyways, this is what my learning has thus far brought me to understand. It can change, however. I don't like to stagnate



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:27 PM
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you dont get into heaven by just believing in jesus, theres more to it then that...go by the ten commandments...and like you said (i dont really understand it either) they repent, so to answer your question, i have no clue.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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liblam, please elaborate on what you mean by

" is KNOWLEDGE that allows you to access higher forms of existance, nothing else. No "divine magic" or something
That's silliness! "

I think you have a strong point of view but that last sentance seemed cloudy to me.


Perhaps its the tea i've been drinking tonight


[Edited on 11-2-2004 by thedarkprojekt]



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:36 PM
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i take no offence. I am not Christian. I am not highly critical of Christianity I am highly critical of all organized religions. It could also be that I am on the fence about accepting Jesus and this is the issue that will decide it for me.

My point for the asking the question is that the Bible, The New and Old Testament are both very contradictory.
I am curious about all religions, right now I am focused on this issue because of the article I read and the and because I want to know how Christians feel about this....and that this particular issue bothers me about this religion.

I read your parable and I don't see the correlation to murder. It a moral story about fairness not about forgiveness for a sin.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:37 PM
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For God to accept a serial killer or sinner into heaven, he must repent. However, this must serious repentment. You cant just say the magical words "God, Im sorry, please forgive me." Its not that easy. You have to let God consume your body and soul. You have to truly deeply be sorry for the sins you committed. I think God can differentiate between the people who are truly sorry and the people that just want to get into heaven.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by TekNo88
you dont get into heaven by just believing in jesus, theres more to it then that...go by the ten commandments...and like you said (i dont really understand it either) they repent, so to answer your question, i have no clue.


Heaven being a higher form of existance? If so, knowledge gets you there. Without knowledge, nothing exists, right? Knowledge implies consciousness... as things lacking a consciousness cannot really "know".

Belief is stagnation. It's a termination of progress... you find something that sounds appealing and decide to "believe" it. Why not research it until you have enough understanding to KNOW something? Let's take the 10 commandments... why follow them and expect some future reward? Can you honestly say "because God said so"? Did Jesus ever command or order anyone around? So why the 10 commandments? Sounds more like a form of control, even if they do seem to make "sense" in terms of being good.

Isn't it really up to the person to discover WHY one should do anything, instead of having someone COMMAND them to do it? If your mother forces you to do homework, and you do not want to, will you not object but submit yet still remain pissed off?

On the other hand, if you don't do the homework and fail classes etc and then realise that it is important to do in order to achieve your future goal... would that not be more beneficial? Can you see how a system of control actually stops learning and creates confusion and confrontation among other things?

Jesus promoted self-searching... understanding of SELF and of reality. He taught you things, but not as "this is how it is"... but more of a "this is how I know it to be, but it is up to you to find answers and understand them". He taught those who ASKED, not created a doctrine and commanded people to follow/worship it.

Do you understand the importance of sovereignty and FREE WILL? Do commands/orders not remove free will to LEARN at your own pace? Think about this very carefully... because this is what most religions are based on! Seems more like a way to control people, even if the teachings ARE potentially beneficial... unless the people learn things themselves, they will be just like the kid who is forced to do homework...



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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lilblam is that in the bible somewhere??

if anyone is going to quote Jesus and the Bible on this issue, please give me directions as to where to find it.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

Let's take the 10 commandments... why follow them and expect some future reward?


Well, i'm just going to and hope for the best...if it turns out i was wrong my whole life, at least i'll know i tried



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by thedarkprojekt
liblam, please elaborate on what you mean by

" is KNOWLEDGE that allows you to access higher forms of existance, nothing else. No "divine magic" or something
That's silliness! "

I think you have a strong point of view but that last sentance seemed cloudy to me.


Perhaps its the tea i've been drinking tonight


[Edited on 11-2-2004 by thedarkprojekt]


Well, you should spend time to maybe think about the word "knowledge" and all its implications. Do you think a ritual or a religion gets you anything? Are those not short cuts that offer no actual knowledge, but instead doctrines to memorize and follow? How does one LEARN and really understand this reality and everything that encompasses this world? How does one learn the SELF, and who he really is?

Do you obtain knowledge by following orders out of fear, or by exploring, and learning? Mistakes are part of learning. Religion tempts with future "pleasure" aka Heaven, and scares with fear tactics aka "Hell". But why submit to such silly control systems? Why not say, I will get to any higher existance at my own pace, as I learn from every possible experience and assimilate them all into my "knowledge" base. When you've learned all the lessons, nooks, and cranies of this world... then it will be time to move on.

It is always your free will choice to learn, and to progress. Others prefer to stay human, for the distinct pleasures etc that humans have. That is their choice. It is always a choice, and if someone comes along and somehow attempts to impose things on you, they are violating your free will, your initiative to learn at your own pace. Knowledge can only be accessed through your OWN initiative, not by being spoon fed and forced.

Read my first post here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

To get the idea of what I mean by "knowledge". Take your time thinking about the concept, as assumptions or jumping to conclusions can really bite you in the ass one day



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by TekNo88

Originally posted by lilblam

Let's take the 10 commandments... why follow them and expect some future reward?


Well, i'm just going to and hope for the best...if it turns out i was wrong my whole life, at least i'll know i tried


Right.. but tried what? Tried to do as you were told in fear of being sent to Hell? Why let anything play on your fears of the unknown? Of course it's your choice as always...

You can analyze these commandments and see WHY they are what they are, and decide which of them should be followed in what situations and for what reasons. This is how you learn. You question, you research, you THINK and discover. You trip, fall down, get up, and keep going....

Not by receiving a list and following it...



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by JustAnIllusion
For God to accept a serial killer or sinner into heaven, he must repent. However, this must serious repentment. You cant just say the magical words "God, Im sorry, please forgive me." Its not that easy. You have to let God consume your body and soul. You have to truly deeply be sorry for the sins you committed. I think God can differentiate between the people who are truly sorry and the people that just want to get into heaven.


Being sorry doesn't take away what you did. Besides, why would you be SORRY after you did those things anyway? Maybe it is because you think God will send you to Hell if you don't repent? So fear would be the motivation. You will not have learned a THING!

Don't be sorry for GOD, just look at what you did, and the consequences of it, and see if it was really worth it and why. You learn things gradually and step by step, not by being "really really sorry" for it.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
lilblam is that in the bible somewhere??

if anyone is going to quote Jesus and the Bible on this issue, please give me directions as to where to find it.


Jesus implies a service to others being. All beings with such orientation have learned the lessons of service to self, and are above it.

You must understand, that service to others just means "Service to self THROUGH others". What goes around, comes around, does it not?

You serve others, and it comes back to you 1000 times...

But if all just served themselves, it would be an immense imbalance of energy, no one would ever LEARN anything, and progress/nature/universe would come to a halt and collapse upon itself in a massive black hole. When you serve self, you suck energy towards yourself, as you are your FOCUS point.

When you serve others, you share and spread your energy to others, and in turn, it is reflected back to you as others give back


[Edited on 11-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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worldwatcher,

"I read your parable and I don't see the correlation to murder. It a moral story about fairness not about forgiveness for a sin."


The key to understanding and interpreting the Bible is taking into account the historical, literary, and contemporary contexts for which it was/is given in. In such, the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard can be interpreted in a multiple of varied ways and meanings.
In contrast, the workers in the vineyard are paid the same amount, no matter when they started work. One of the symbolic concepts behind this parable is that no matter if a man or woman asks for "forgiveness" 20 years ago for a particular "sin", or just asks for "forgiveness" before he or she dies or is killed or, as with your article, is executed for a particular "sin", according to many Christian interpretations, he or she will be "forgiven".



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-2-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 10:08 PM
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but seekeroff, that is my problem with the Bible, it can be interpreted to push the Christianity religion when it perhaps was just a story to instill morals. You take it to mean forgiveness of sins, I really really have a hard time interpreting in your way, I still see it as a moral about fairness and equality in life.

but I appreciate your input.

lilblam, i understand your interpretation however I don't see that being expressed verbally in the bible. your interpretation sounds very much eastern philosophy. correct me if I am wrong

justanillusion...i certainly hope God can tell the difference, but under the premise that these evil people were sincere when repenting, I still cannot accept being in the same heaven as them.



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 10:13 PM
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Believing in Jesus does not mean you get into heaven. One of the basic rules, made at the Council of Trent, says that, "it is just as important to believe in God and Jesus as it is to do good deeds and help your fellow man" Obviously murdering someone means you failed the second part, meaning, you failed that. You would probably be sent to purgatory. Now, the man that claimed his innocence, we do not know. If he was truly innocent, then he did nothing wrong, now did he? He died unjustly, so he would, like many martyrs, enter into heaven. My Opinion.

-wD



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 10:15 PM
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worldwatcher.....that was not my own personal interpretation. It was just one of many upon many given Christian interpretations.




regards
seekerof



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by TekNo88

Originally posted by lilblam

Let's take the 10 commandments... why follow them and expect some future reward?


Well, i'm just going to and hope for the best...if it turns out i was wrong my whole life, at least i'll know i tried


Right.. but tried what? Tried to do as you were told in fear of being sent to Hell? Why let anything play on your fears of the unknown? Of course it's your choice as always...

You can analyze these commandments and see WHY they are what they are, and decide which of them should be followed in what situations and for what reasons. This is how you learn. You question, you research, you THINK and discover. You trip, fall down, get up, and keep going....

Not by receiving a list and following it...


when i read that it made me wish that life wasnt so damn complex with religion and all that stuff out there...



posted on Feb, 11 2004 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
but seekeroff, that is my problem with the Bible, it can be interpreted to push the Christianity religion when it perhaps was just a story to instill morals. You take it to mean forgiveness of sins, I really really have a hard time interpreting in your way, I still see it as a moral about fairness and equality in life.

but I appreciate your input.

lilblam, i understand your interpretation however I don't see that being expressed verbally in the bible. your interpretation sounds very much eastern philosophy. correct me if I am wrong

justanillusion...i certainly hope God can tell the difference, but under the premise that these evil people were sincere when repenting, I still cannot accept being in the same heaven as them.


Sorry I didn't say this in the beginning... it's not my interpretation of the Bible at all.

It is simply what I've come to learn from life, and is really common sense! Unless one is hypnotised or mind-programmed to not think, it is rather obvious. But considering most of our society is under heavy hypnosis (remember, we're consumers, NOT people!), it saddens me to say that it may be "sense" but it's not very "common'


Eastern philosophy is so easily called "eastern philosophy" to not worry about it. Why worry about what one calls ideas/thoughts and label them as something? They no longer become valued as ideas and understandings... but are simply something shelved as "this philosophy" or "this guy's law" or "this religion".

Stuff is either true, or it's not. Do you think you can do more progress with devotion/belief in some entity, and a bunch of commands to follow? Or by thinking on your own, figuring things out on your own, and experiencing all the lessons that life has to teach? Do you learn something if someone tells you "do this cuz I said so, and cuz it's good"? Or when you do the opposite and then it hurts you and others around you, and you LEARN and UNDERSTAND WHY you do what you do, as you come to your own conclusions? Seems like common sense...



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