The vile rants of the Koran

Originally posted by babloyi

* If this is not what you meant, I sincerely apologise. I've been rather cynical lately.

No, I was actually trying to say something nice for a change. Nevermind.

Reply to kacou

As a historian, Ibn Ishaq, isn't the most reliable source. However, though some of his works may include authentic reports and some false. There are in fact two opinions regarding things as to how Revelation is received.

The first opinion comes from Hadhrat Aisha (RA) who believed the first revelation came down as a Dream, at least the from my understanding just as she did believe Isra and Miraj was also in a Dream format, though we have evidence for the other opinion regarding Isra and Miraj that it was physical, since there were Witnesses in Jerusalem.

The other is that it is the "Divine Decree" is physical and there is proof for that, just as the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) who physically saw Gabriel (as) in human form.

I don't have an answer regarding what exactly happened on the first revelation, whether it was in a Dream or a Physical thing.

At-Tabari also relates the following hadith, on the authority of `Abdullah ibn Al-Zubayr:
The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: "While I was asleep he came to me carrying a case of a very rich material in which there was a book. He said: "Read". I replied: "I am not a reader." He pressed me so hard that I felt that I was about to die. Then he released me and said, 'read'. I asked: 'What shall I read?' (I said this only out of fear that he might repeat what he had done to me before.) He said: 'Read: in the name of your Lord who created. It is He who created man from clots of blood. Read! Your Lord is the Most Bounteous, who has taught the use of the pen. He has taught man what he did not know.' I read it. He stopped. Then he left me and went away. I woke up feeling that it was actually written in my heart."

Keeping in mind that this is the first time Prophet(peace be upon him) has seen the Angel Gabreil could be the fact that he got Overwhelmed.

If it was Physical encounter than i wouldnt say he was forced or the angel Gabreil was being Harsh as you stated.Here we are talking about a Teacher teaching a Student to RECITE.




[edit on 17-1-2008 by kangjia57]

Reply to Skyfloating

This is craziness, really. In my post, I wasnt talking about homosexuals, nor do I believe we are descendant from animals.

I assumed that you agreed with the Views of InSpiteOf

My Bad,I Apologise.

Coming back to what you said.

Ah yes...so happiness is equated with hardship, endurance and restriction.

My response in previous post (Edited);

These rules and laws are there to stop people from taking part in evil actions.

Its there to hold the Moral Values.

Why don’t you understand that? We Muslims will never let our morals collapse no matter what day and age we live in. That’s what makes us different from you.

Understand?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to kacou
The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: "While I was asleep he came to me carrying a case of a very rich material in which there was a book. He said: "Read". I replied: "I am not a reader." He pressed me so hard that I felt that I was about to die. Then he released me and said, 'read'. I asked: 'What shall I read?' (I said this only out of fear that he might repeat what he had done to me before.) He said: 'Read: in the name of your Lord who created. It is He who created man from clots of blood. Read! Your Lord is the Most Bounteous, who has taught the use of the pen. He has taught man what he did not know.' I read it. He stopped. Then he left me and went away. I woke up feeling that it was actually written in my heart."

[edit on 17-1-2008 by kangjia57]

This is exactly my point.
True teaching is delivered to the heart by ways of understanding with no power been apply.
I cannot accept a God that shovels his command in this manner, in retrospect it shows the weakness of God to reach his messenger.
I hope you can acknowledge this dilemma, after all he is God all knowing and all powerful why didn’t chose a more spiritual and peaceful way to reach Mohammed.
Something is definitely not right there.

Kacou

reply to post by kangjia57


May I ask why you think being critical of islam is the same thing as "liberalism"?

Is kissing my girlfriend on the cheek in public "liberalism"?

reply to post by Skyfloating

I'm really very sorry. I hope you don't kill me if I ask....what exactly did you mean?


And kacou, as I said before, while the Sira make very nice stories, they haven't been held up to the same rigorous tests as the hadith, so I'd be hesitant to take any of them at face value. I'm also hesitant about accepting many of at-Tabari's hadith unless they are matched with some somewhere else, because I'm not a hadith scholar, and I cannot tell which narrator is reliable and which is unreliable. Gulliaumes sent me on a wild goose chase, until I found Guillaumes . A small (perhaps seemingly insignificant?) example from the passage you quoted that strikes me as odd: Muhammad really didn't like silk, so it seems odd that he'd be using it as a coverlet.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
I'm really very sorry. I hope you don't kill me if I ask....what exactly did you mean?

What I meant is that while I completely disagree with the tactics of your religion, I appreciate your expert input on the topic. Good journalism always includes both sides.

What is your opinion of the sunni/shiite split?

Reply to Skyfloating

May I ask why you think being critical of Islam is the same thing as "liberalism"?

Most of the people who are critics of Islam have liberalist (open-minded) Views because their ‘Freedom’ apparently will be taken away according to Islamic laws and regulations.

Is kissing my girlfriend on the cheek in public "liberalism"?

In a Muslim country it is. In a Western country its not.

reply to post by babloyi


I appreciate your view in this matter.
I am not a scholar in Koran related documents also, but this doesn’t prevent me to take in consideration all view…which I deed.
You see one problem with theology what ever the religion studded, it is not partial.
He or here that study a religion will be confronted with his or hers own faith therefore a protective instinct dictated by faith will usually shadow all questionable or dubious issue in the related religious documents.
The debate is hosted by a conspiracy forum; I for one see a conspiracy in all religious scripture. Why I can see it? Just look a round you, we as human are good if only left a lone by our self to reach any spirituality we choose. Too many religions, too many interpretations, too many self proclaim prophets, and very little peace or love. That is a fact of this world to day and yesterday.

Kacou.

reply to post by kangjia57


You see, me stating above that i appreciate the input of muslims to this thread, is a way of acting "liberal". Is that such an evil thing?

reply to post by Skyfloating

There isn't really anything to opine about. It is a very sad thing to have happened, and while I think that if Ali had been chosen earlier as Caliph, some of these problems may not have occured, or if he had not been assassinated, some of these problems may not have occured; hindsight is 20/20. Still, history is history, and there isn't much that can be done about it. While I disagree with the shia notion that the Caliphate should be a hereditary office, the offences committed against the Shias are huge, and I'd have thought there might have been a better way to resolve them.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by babloyi]

Reply to Skyfloating

Coming back to the title of the thread ‘The vile rants of the Koran’ has been answered for in this Site.

www.islamic-shield.com...

reply to post by kangjia57


And how do you view the sunni / shiite split?

Did you know that not banning muslim preachers of war and hate is a form of liberalism?

Reply to Skyfloating

Did you know that not banning Muslim preachers of war and hate is a form of liberalism?

Which Muslim preachers are you talking about?

Islam doesn’t allow Muslims to preach War and Hate.

reply to post by kangjia57


Alright, lets put it differently: Without that "liberalism" which you disapprove of, islamic practices wouldnt be allowed in non-islamic countries.

Text

Alright, lets put it differently: Without that "liberalism" which you disapprove of, islamic practices wouldnt be allowed in non-islamic countries.

I disapprove of everything that conflicts with Islam.

Islam does accept the existence of other thoughts/religions but Never adapting them to bring an Innoevation in Islam itself.

It’s simple if Islamic practises weren’t allowed in non-Muslim countries than I wouldn’t be in a non-Muslim country.

Liberalism might have positives about but it also has a lot of negatives that conflicts with ISlam.

Islam has 0% tolerance for the Negatives.

reply to post by kangjia57


you are very lucky that we dont preach 0% tolerance for what we perceive to be negative (islam).

[edit on 17-1-2008 by Skyfloating]

Reply to Skyfloating

you are very lucky that we dont preach 0% for what we perceive to be negative (islam).

Its not that you don’t. Its because YOU CAN’T.

Understand matey? Keep that in Mind.


[edit on 17-1-2008 by kangjia57]

Sure we could preach 0% tolerance for islam. We could ban the books and jail those who call out for war in the name of allah. But most often we dont because we live in what you call a "liberal" (read: respectful) society.

I have yet to see a muslim that truly respects anything other than his own little world.

End of discussion.

Reply to Skyfloating

I have yet to see a muslim that truly respects anything other than his own little world.

And I have yet to see a non-muslim that TRULY doesn’t hate Islam.

Yes END OF DISCUSSION.