The vile rants of the Koran

Originally posted by Freeborn
It was with much thought that I joined in on this thread.
I have done so on other one's and they too degenerated into slanging matches.

I know I have contributed to this.
But to enter into a civilized debate and discussion both sides must be prepared to listen and consider the other viewpoint.
Unfortunately that seems impossible with kangjia.
His blind acceptance of Sharia and the teachings of the Koran proves infuriating and eventually causes me to reply in kind. :shk:

Then adress your points to the other muslim here...babloi. He seems more capable of explaining aspects of islam to us westerners. On the other hand he is careful to conceal the more outrageous claims of islamic thought whereas kangjia does not hide his fervor.

reply to post by kangjia57


Sorry but I think you misunderstand me.

What I want your comments on is this part of the post:

'You shall not enter paradise until you have faith, and you shall not have faith until you love one another. Have compassion on those who are on earth, and he who is in heaven will have compassion on you' (Hadith in Bukhari cited in Maqsood 2000:19).

"Isnt this a little contradictory to the way you treat homosexuals? "


As for those links you sent me, i looked through a few of them. interesting to say the least, but i find a lot of it relies on interpretation of the passages. Thats not to say there aren't some interesting correlations, but to be honest, Id be more convinced if there was a picture of the double helix

reply to post by kangjia57


As for the new article you just linked, id like to post a few exerpts.

The discovery is so significant because the skull has a mixture of both ape and humanlike features."From the back the Toumai skull looks like a chimpanzee, but from the front it could pass for a 1.75 million-year-old apeman," said anthropologist Bernard Wood of George Washington University.

This is your article dont forget.

I find it intersting that you refuse to recognize the obvious link we have with primate when it is right there, in your article.

Now, the scientists can counter by pointing out that I cannot scientifically prove human beings were created by God and not evolved from apes. This is true. Yet, the evolution of human beings also has not been proven scientifically, either. It is still just a theory.

I thought it was very interesting that this author/doctor would relate the obvious theory of evolution (obvious that it is just a theory and not established fact) to his belief in Creationism. I find it interesting because, when you look at the wording, i think he is saying more than he means too. What is he saying you ask? In essence, he is saying, Creationism is no more established fact than evolution; it is a theory.


Furthermore, i found the comments left by readers/users to be just as interesting as the interpretation of the article.

Specifically, some of the comments suggesting intelligent design rather than creationism or evolution alone.

I remain agnostic when it comes to the ultimate answers, but i do have my idea's.

Reply to InSpiteOf

"Isnt this a little contradictory to the way you treat homosexuals? "

Loving one another doesn’t mean that you start having gay sex.
In Islam its clearly stated that homosexuality is not allowed.

The Prophet(peace be upon him)was once asked about the deeds which would surely lead one to Paradise.
He replied, “Fear of Allah and upright behavior.’ On being asked about the deeds which would lead one to Hell, he said, “their sayings and their sexual behaviour.’” (Tirmidhi)

The Prophet(peace be upon him) also said, “ I can guarantee Paradise to whoever can guard his mouth and what is between his legs.” (Bukhari)

Allah has prohibited people from committing all sin, whether their behaviour becomes exposed to others or not. He has prohibited the violation of the honour and dignity of others and has made these sine lead to great punishment. The way to happiness involves endurance of much patience, hardship, self-restraint and avoidance of sin and vice. On the other hand, it is easy to collapse before temptation and submit to one’s drives, but in the end, it ultimately leads to self –destruction. Indeed, there is no meaning to life without religion and one cannot gain satisfaction without committing to strong principles.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Loving one another doesn’t mean that you start having gay sex.
In Islam its clearly stated that homosexuality is not allowed.

You mis-understand what i ment. The tennant you quoted from the Quran can be summed up as "love one and other". A good idea, but how can you love one and other when your busy stonning homosexuals. Dont you see the contradiction here?

On one side you have allah saying love eachother, on the other you have him saying, kill gays. (those words may not be used, but that is the jist of what im getting from you)

Indeed, there is no meaning to life without religion and one cannot gain satisfaction without committing to strong principles.

I strongly disagree with this. Religion is hardly the end all be all of life on earth. Religion is a set of guidelines, spiritualism is the interaction of spirit and the infinite. (what the infinite is to you may be called God, the Creator, The Light, etc)

Reply to InSpiteOf

The discovery is so significant because the skull has a mixture of both ape and humanlike features."From the back the Toumai skull looks like a chimpanzee, but from the front it could pass for a 1.75 million-year-old apeman," said anthropologist Bernard Wood of George Washington University.

The Quran claims that Allah transformed certain Sabbath breaking Jews into monkeys and pigs:
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." S. 2:66

"Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!" S. 5:60

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "A group of Israelites were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But I do not see them except that they were cursed and changed into rats, for if you put the milk of a she-camel in front of a rat, it will not drink it, but if the milk of a sheep is put in front of it, it will drink it." I told this to Ka'b who asked me, "Did you hear it from the Prophet?" I said, "Yes." Ka'b asked me the same question several times; I said to Ka'b. "Do I read the Torah? (i.e. I tell you this from the Prophet.)" (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 524)

It was illegal for the Israelites to eat the meat or drink the milk of camels while they were allowed to eat the meat and drink the milk of sheep. The Prophet inferred from the rats' habit that some Israelites had been transformed into rats.
[2] Later on the Prophet ... was informed through inspiration about the fate of those Israelites: They were transformed into pigs and monkeys.

Narrated Abu 'Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash'ari:
that he heard the Prophet saying, "From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.' Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v)


*[Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.]* (Al-Ma’idah 5: 60)

As a Muslim that’s my view of monkeys/apes.
You claim that apes are very simillar to humans.Maybe the reasons i have stated above tell us where apes come from.

Reply to InSpiteOf

You mis-understand what i ment. The tennant you quoted from the Quran can be summed up as "love one and other". A good idea, but how can you love one and other when your busy stonning homosexuals. Dont you see the contradiction here?

Where is the contradiction?

You love and respect one another. But when ONE turns into a homosexual than you kill him.

Islam has 0% tolerance for evil desires. Every evil is killed before it spreads like a disease and lowers the moral values of the society.

reply to post by kangjia57


Accept the primate fossil record predates any human fossil record. by about 58 million years...

The earliest known primates in the fossil record belong to the genus Altiatlasius and are dated at 60 million years. The primates probably originated during the Early Paleocene or the Late Cretaceous.

Source

How could Allah have made the isrealites into the first primates (thus creating the close relationship to humans both in behavior and in DNA) when the isrealites wouldnt exist for millions of years?

Edit to add source

[edit on 16-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

Originally posted by kangjia57
Where is the contradiction?

You love and respect one another. But when ONE turns into a homosexual than you kill him.

Islam has 0% tolerance for evil desires. Every evil is killed before it spreads like a disease and lowers the moral values of the society.

I see then.

Tolerate and love your fellow man so long as he is exactly like you.

How interesting that religion (both yours and christianity) ignore biology in favor of ruthless blood letting.

Reply to InSpiteOf

How could Allah have made the isrealites into the first primates (thus creating the close relationship to humans both in behavior and in DNA) when the isrealites wouldnt exist for millions of years?

I said: Maybe the reasons i have stated above tell us where apes come from.

That doesn’t mean that all apes/monkeys are Israelites.

The human race started from Adam and Eve not Adam and Ape or Adam and Steve.

Reply to InSpiteOf

Tolerate and love your fellow man so long as he is exactly like you.

Yup you have finally got it. Well done matey!

Once humans start thinking they are animals and start behaving like animals than indeed they cannot be tolerated, loved or respected.

Originally posted by kangjia57
I said: Maybe the reasons i have stated above tell us where apes come from.

That doesn’t mean that all apes/monkeys are Israelites.

It was not my intention to make you think that I thought all Isrealites became apes. Rather, I was pointing out that Apes came before Isrealites, therefore, Allah changing the Isrealites into apes could not have marked the creation of the first ape.

The human race started from Adam and Eve not Adam and Ape or Adam and Steve.

Its interesting that we as a species are slowly filling in the gaps in the theory of evolution (with the discovery of the skull linked in your article) but we have yet to find any evidence of Adam or his 1 ribbed partner.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to InSpiteOf

Tolerate and love your fellow man so long as he is exactly like you.

Yup you have finally got it. Well done matey!

Wow....So much for the Word of God being the Word of Peace. Seems more like the Word of God is the Word of a Despot.

Once humans start thinking they are animals and start behaving like animals than indeed they cannot be tolerated, loved or respected.

If humans are not animals, then why do we have the same animal insticts as our earthly brethren?

Surely, as one of Allah's creation, the animals recieve the same love that humans do? Or does Allah selectively choose which of his creations to love and which ones to dispose of?

Reply to InSpiteOf

If humans are not animals, then why do we have the same animal insticts as our earthly brethren?

Humans speak and write language, think complicated thoughts, can remember the past and project themselves into the future, have imagination, enjoy planning and seeing themselves as parts of the universe. They are self-conscious and other-conscious in ways that no other animals are.

Despite the superficial similarities of anatomy (based upon a common plan of economy in the mind of the Planner) and physiology (based upon the common needs of mammals in atmospheric breathing, digestion, defecation, reproduction), man is in a class apart, both physically and mentally. But man has original ideas; he can create new things and does so constantly.

Eg.“the beaver (which constructs dams) does not and cannot construct an imaginary blue print of his future accommodation, where this is something of which even the most ‘primitive’ human is capable.

Man is aware of himself, he can objectify himself and his own action. nimals are happy so long as they have health and enough to eat. But man feels fear, anxiety, and death awareness.

According to the Qur’an, the human’s special attribute of being created “in the image of God” (Al-Hijr 15:29; Ghafir 40:64; At-Taghabun 64:3) is reflected not only in speech but in such matters as personality, will, God-consciousness, and morality. Animals lack the capacity for moral agency. Man alone experiences a sense of guilt when he does wrong, as he is a moral being (Ash-Shams 91:8–9). Being a moral agent means being able to choose between right and wrong and being able to act on that choice.

“I have thought that it would be more convenient to treat the subject separately, especially as so wonderful an instinct as that of the hive-bee making its cells will probably have occurred to many, as a difficulty sufficient to overthrow my whole theory.” (Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 233)

Surely, as one of Allah's creation, the animals recieve the same love that humans do? Or does Allah selectively choose which of his creations to love and which ones to dispose of?

The Holy Prophet(peace be upon him) puts it in these words: "All creatures are like a family (Ayal) of God: and he loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family. (Narrated by Anas. Mishkat al-Masabih,3:1392; quoted from Bukhari.)

The Qur'an states: "There is not an animal on earth, nor a bird that flies on its wings, but they are communities like you…". (Qur'an 6:38).

The Holy Prophet(s) used to say: "Whoever is kind to the creatures of God, is kind to himself."(Wisdom of Prophet (peace be upon him)



[edit on 16-1-2008 by kangjia57]

Originally posted by kangjia57


The Prophet(peace be upon him)was once asked about the deeds which would surely lead one to Paradise.
He replied, “Fear of Allah and upright behavior.’ On being asked about the deeds which would lead one to Hell, he said, “their sayings and their sexual behaviour.’” (Tirmidhi) The Prophet(peace be upon him) also said, “ I can guarantee Paradise to whoever can guard his mouth and what is between his legs.” (Bukhari)

Love and sexuality are some of the most beautiful and spiritual experiences given to mankind. I recall not even being allowed to show affection to my girlfriend in public while in an islamic country (by giving her a kiss on the cheek).

The repression of sexuality as practiced in islam is yet another seriously wicked method to keep humans in chains.

great punishment. The way to happiness involves endurance of much patience, hardship, self-restraint and avoidance of sin and vice. On the other hand, it is easy to collapse before temptation and submit to one’s drives, but in the end, it ultimately leads to self –destruction. Indeed, there is no meaning to life without religion and one cannot gain satisfaction without committing to strong principles.

Ah yes...so happiness is equated with hardship, endurance and restriction. :bnghd:

Just like in most other religions, happiness is postponed to "later", to "paradise". This has all the hallmarks of brainwashing. "If you do this and this and this and this and this, THEN you will find paradise". Read up on "sales and marketing 101".

Reply to Skyfloating

Ah yes...so happiness is equated with hardship, endurance and restriction.

If happiness makes you think you’re an animal and that having sex with all kind of sexes brings eternal Peace than you can carry on matey..
Maybe one day having sex with animals will be seen as Normal.

These rules and laws are there to stop people from turning into wild animals..

Its there to hold the Morals.

Why don’t you understand that? We Muslims will never let our morals collapse no matter what day and age we live in.Thats what makes us different from you.

Understand?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by babloyi

 

Thanks for the firm and quick answers. I apologize for current and future beatings of fundamentalist islam.

You know, I had the dandiest time trying to figure out what you meant in this post. At first I thought you were apologising for how people are always attacking the fundementals (core) of Islamic thought. It seemed a little odd that you'd say something like that, so then I thought that maybe you were apologising for all the times YOU would attack fundemental islam. This still didn't seem like you though.
Then I thought, how can I get a negative connotation from what you said? Then it finally hit( ) me. You were talking about people of fundementalist islam beating me for my beliefs*. I'm sorry shatter your idea of muslims, but that has never happened in all the time I've spent in many islamic countries. I discuss islam with learned (as far as islam is concerned) individuals, and as long as I stick to the hadith and scripture, they can't deny what I say. I discuss islam with learned people (who do not specialise in learning of islam, necessarily), and I can have an interesting discussion too.

It is a very rare thing that I meet someone who has been 'brainwashed' to such an extent that they'd beat me because they don't think my ideas match up with islam. Even then, I'd put it down to lack of education, not excess of islamic knowledge.


As far as concealing outrageous claims, Islam is Islam. I cannot hide it or change it. Ask me something if you think I'm BSing.

* If this is not what you meant, I sincerely apologise. I've been rather cynical lately.

Reply to babloyi

As far as concealing outrageous claims, Islam is Islam. I cannot hide it or change it.

It would help if they start understanding that. If it hasn’t changed for past 1400 years so what makes them think that it will change now or in future. IMPOSSIBLE!

I have joined this forum because I have seen enough of Islam bashing and NOW I will Drop like a BOMB on all the bashers. I wont let them get away with there hate filled paragraphs or one liners.

Its time to answer BACK.

reply to post by babloyi


The quote about the circumstance how the prophet Mohammed was approached is been extracted from A. Gulliaumes translation of the original biography of Mohammed founder of Islam, the earliest of the Hadith, published in 1955.
The original Arab version is authored in Bagdad ca. 750 AD, and later restructured by Ibn Hisham.
Some passages which depict an unattractive image of Muhammad have been removed by late Arab historians and also Ibn Hisham, and have been lost to history, except when quoted by the early Islamic historian Tabari.
My point is that, we should always verify the source of any message from God so to give it all credibility for the lesser educated (another way of restricting blind faith).
And don’t think that only Islam as been targeted, all religion go threw this kind of processes in our modern age. I could also tell you about what many historians now have found about some controversial aspects of the life and teaching of Jesus, which also bring Christians to questions.
I am also aware that many people view this as a Christian missionary's twisted translation of a book that Muslim scholars consider inauthentic because of lack of asnad (chain of narrators).

Kacou

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Skyfloating

Ah yes...so happiness is equated with hardship, endurance and restriction.

If happiness makes you think you’re an animal and that having sex with all kind of sexes brings eternal Peace than you can carry on matey..
Maybe one day having sex with animals will be seen as Normal.

These rules and laws are there to stop people from turning into wild animals..

Its there to hold the Morals.

Why don’t you understand that? We Muslims will never let our morals collapse no matter what day and age we live in.Thats what makes us different from you.

Understand?

This is craziness, really. In my post, I wasnt talking about homosexuals, nor do I believe we are descendant from animals.