The vile rants of the Koran

Originally posted by Freeborn

Islam has regressed in the last century or so and is something similair to what Christianity was during the Dark Ages and The Spanish Inquisition.
Fortunately, most Christians have progressed slightly since then.

Very true.

Would you know why it might have degressed or what the factors involving the degression were 100+ years ago?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Oh, if only I could answer that with conviction.
I would be noted expert and would be actively involved in addressing the problems by providing viable solutions.
I have never stated that I have the answers to the world's ill's.

I suspect the reasons are many and varied:
Oil.
Globalisation.
Envy.
Lust for power and control.
Nationhood.
Israel.
Lies.
Inequality.
Suspicion.
The desire to conquer.
Cultural differences.

I guess the list is endless.
To summarise; all the human frailties that have handicapped mankind since the dawn of civilisation.

The wheel will continue turning and in a hundred years time our values and perceptions will have changed again and there will be another threat hanging over our heads.

History teaches us that we seldom learn, just the circumstances change.

reply to post by Freeborn


Well, thats rather a general listing there. I was hoping for some specific trigger-event or conspiracy, because the change in islam compared to 100+years ago is apparent. But I guess life isnt that simple.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I certainly think that the British handling of Israel / Palestine helped stoke the fires so to speak and the subsequent governing of the Israeli nation has contributed.
I think that this in turn has been exploited by fanatics into turning the Palestine question into a cause celebre and thus giving Muslims something to rally round.

I also think that it has been a reaction against the preceived "decadence" of western civilization and the "moral decline" in some Muslim countries.
As western influences increase, do does the reaction against it.
"To every action force there is an equal, but opposite reaction force".

Obviously Afghanistan and both Gulf Wars were definig moments.

I honestly think that we come from two completely different viewpoints.
Western civilization is based on free will and free thought.
Middle East civilization is based on adherence and obediance.
Obviously these boundries are becoming blurred.
However, we insist in imposing our views upon societies that do not want to understand them.
The Middle East does not want democracy.

As I said, I think the reasons are many and varied.
I'm no expert and have barely scratched the surface of the contributing factors that I am aware of.

Unfortunately, I haven't got the answers either.
Better men than me have sought solutions.

Me, I'd start with banning organised religion.
Universal education, (but no religous education).
Integration of all schools.
Wealth distribution.

Sounds like a recipe for absolute carnage doesn't it!

reply to post by Freeborn


Thats more like it. Thank you.

I think youve actually pinpointed the causes as-they-are.

Reply to Freeborn

Sharia Law supports honour killings.

Sharia law Islamic Sharia is based on the Quran and I have and continue to study the Sharia and there is no mention of honour killing. Our Prophet(peace be upon him) has said that if there is any report from me that contradicts the Quran to disregard it. If some fool shows you a law then he has to show the reference and if it's not from Quran nor from the Prophet it can't be followed. It is very easy to confuse religion with culture even for those who practice the religion.

In the Glorious Qur’an, Allah, Most High, says, “Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom.” (An-Nisa’: 93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community." (Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

There is no such concept in Islam that is called “honour killing”. Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments. Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized society cannot be run by such laws.”

The so-called “honour killing” is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law in their own hands, for it’s the responsibility of the Muslim State and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society.

In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law other than the officers who are in charge.

Honour killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment.

Sharia Law supports women being punished for being raped.

Rape victims are victims and their statement is automatically accepted unless there were clear signs of Lying.
The rape victim gets no punishment al all, why should they? The rapist gets the same punishment as adultery. The punishment differs if he was married or not married. if the Rapist is married i believe he gets the death penalty (stoned to death) but if he's not he gets lashed about (100 times).

Sharia Law supports the subjugation of women.

The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never hit any of his wives according to the Islamic tradition. The following ahadiths and verses from the Qur'an justify this fact:

The prophet (peace be upon him) said: 'the most perfect believer in faith is the one whose character is finest and who is kindest to his wife' (Tirmidhi and Nasa'i cited in Maqsood 2000:32).

'You shall not enter paradise until you have faith, and you shall not have faith until you love one another. Have compassion on those who are on earth, and he who is in heaven will have compassion on you' (Hadith in Bukhari cited in Maqsood 2000:19).

'A believing man must never hate a believing woman; if he dislikes one trait in her, he will find another trait in her with which to be pleased' (Hadith in Muslim cited in Maqsood 2000:53).

Allah says: 'O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness' (4:19 Qur'an Trans Y.Ali). 'Live with them on a footing of kindness and equity' (4:19 Qur'an Trans Y.Ali).

On the one hand you dismiss such actions as cultural yet you also admit that you support Sharia Law.

Cultural Practises are illegal according to Islam and Sharia Law is legal according to Islam.

I think it's pretty obvious that the culture of the middle east helped shape the Islamic religion and through the years Islam has also helped shape the cultural development within the region.

No culture and religion don’t go hand in hand.
You either follow cultural practises or religious practises. You cant mix them both and say they are ONE thing.

You fail to recognise an explanation on homosexuality which certainly educated me, (I would describe myself as tolerant, at best, of homosexuality).

You fail to give me scientific evidence to prove your point.
No evidence = homosexuality (not a natural occurance) = evil desire

Understand?

Islam has regressed in the last century or so and is something similair to what Christianity was during the Dark Ages and The Spanish Inquisition.

Islam has progressed not regressed in the last century.
Christianity has decreased majorly.
Most Christians have started to progress by adapting atheist beliefs.
Beliefs like all humans are animals and also tend to behave like animals.

I will actively resist any attempt that you or anyone else makes to impose
their beliefs and opinions upon me or my country.

How am I imposing my beliefs on you?

reply to post by kangjia57


I usually never get my self involve with this kind of debate because none of the party wouldn’t let the opposite side accept a compromise because it infringe the duality that the debate regenerate.
Saying this I would like you to consider the point of view of one of the greatest Muslim leader of the past 2 century. I am talking about Emir Abd-el-Kader. (Born 1808. deceased 1883)
He was the opposition leader of the French colonisation of Algeria.
His lifetime’s work devoted to global human interests, speak for themselves. He was and continues to be, a symbol of tolerance, spirituality, reconciliation, with a strong emphasis on innovation and reform. He was a futurist and an initiator – as is confirmed in his commitment to the rules governing the treatment of prisoners of war, amongst others. His works reflect his belief that religion did not exclude science, that science did not exclude humanism, that faith did not exclude tolerance and that pragmatism did not exclude spiritualism.
This Muslim didn’t take what you take from the Koran as absolute proof but wanted to reform all the religions that where link together by the patriarch Abraham. He back then understood more then many Muslims today that only human together can unit below the symbol of peace and love threw reform and acceptance.
I don’t know if you ever heard of him, but the point is that, this man was a humanist before any other designation (cultural or religious).
He had corresponded with one of his best friend Monseigneur Dupuch, “êveque” of Alger, for many years. The letter those now are available for public shows a spirit open and tolerant in a nevertheless difficult time.
He had considered some thing that many Muslims will not contemplate in today world, that the Koran is too complex to be followed literally and a humanist interpretation is in deed needed to over come the slavery of blind faith.

Kacou.

reply to post by kangjia57


I take your point on honour killings.
I am pleased that you recognise these as an unjust.
It is unfortunate that some people use religion to justify / vilify these actions.
I stand corrected.
en.wikipedia.org...

Unfortunately I can not say the same for the rest of the points you have tried to make.

To say that culture and religion do not help shape each other is naive.
The culture within which Mohammad lived is reflected in the very tenets of Islamic law.
The same can be said of most, if not all, major religions.
If you look at the similarities between halal and kosher foods you can see that it is culture defining religious beliefs.
Both religions originated from a common source within the same cultural background; hence cultural practices being passed off as religous dogma.

The imposition of Sharia Law is a stated goal of various interpretations of Islam.
Sharia Law itself differs depending on which denomination an individual believes in.
Sunni Muslims follow different Laws to those practiced by Shia Muslims.
In addition, Sharia Law was not codified until approximately 200 years ago.
en.wikipedia.org...

I have no intent to discuss the way Islam allows women to be (mis)treat.
Other's far more eloquent and qualified than I have done so within this thread.
Yet still you refuse to acknowledge the proof presented to you.

As I stated in previous posts; the religion and culture that I was raised in, (but no longer follow), allows me to question things and admit that I may indeed have been wrong.
Your religion however demands total obedience and control of every aspect of a followers life.

Christianity, on the whole, has developed into a more spiritual and tolerant religion.
Islam is developing into a uncompromising, hateful religion.

I personally refuse to buy into any of that "your reward is after you die" nonsense and follow my own path.

reply to post by kacou


Thanks for the heads up.
I have never previously heard of Abd al-Qadir but having Wiki'd him I can see that this is a man who deserves further research and instantly demands the utmost respect.

Skyfloating, what you mentioned is not a commandment, but a (very suspicious, hadith-wise) prediction of how something will turn out in the future. Since I don't know the circumstances, and neither do you, I fail to see how this means that jews must be killed.

Originally posted by dbates
Because you're using a computer to communicate with other men. That's a flogging or a beating with a shoe in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Iran. They all have such interesting "cultural practises" (sic) in these countries. Odd how they are all quite similar. I wonder what the connection is?

I'm not sure where you got that idea from. Talking in a discussion forum on the internet warrants a flogging or a beating with a shoe in those countries? That is very much untrue. Who said this? Where did it come from?
From Islam? No? Then it probably has more to do with culture than religion. Do you want me to go through the list of non-muslim countries that have things in their culture that gravitate towards what you describe?

About force and law, there are some things in Islam (stuff that affects the community) that is punished (murder, false witness, etc), but every 'wrong' doesn't have a prescribed punishment in Islam.

Originally posted by Freeborn
The Koran sets out a series of dictates that aims to control every aspect of an individuals life and offers little, if any, free will.
I reject any God that demands I follow his every whim regardless of how barbaric it is.
Why would "God" want someone to lead such a miserable, uncaring and unhappy life?

The Quran sets out a guideline as to the best way for a human to live. One can choose to ignore those guidelines, but one of the meanings of Islam is 'Submission to the will of God'. I'd be surprised if any Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. didn't think that they should submit to the will of God. Submitting to the will of God won't provide any benefit to God, but it'll provide benefit to us.

As for Sharia law, in it's current form, I'd say there is very much that is unislamic about it.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by kacou


Damn good post. Your English is also improving!

Originally posted by kangjia57

Edit to add: Just saw your refutation, going through it now.

Haha well you are definetly an animal But not me matey.
Like I said if you believe you’re an animal and you wana behave like an animal, than you can carry on..

The only thing we do not share with the animal kingdom is a conciousness. Outside of our thinking processes, we are identical to the animal kingdom. We breath, eat, sleep, procreate, fight, war, sleep some more, etc etc etc.

So how are we not animals?

You have answered nothing.

Prove to me scientifically that in humans have homosexuality occurring naturally in them.Give me evidence Eg. Is it in human Genes…

Prove to me God created you. Give me evidence Eg. Is it in human Genes...


You cant, because we have yet to map out what every gene does. The fact that our closest relative (yes, in the animal kingdom) has homosexual tendencies should be tellling.

I really hope you actually refute what Ive posted instead of just brushing it off.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

[edit on 16-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

'You shall not enter paradise until you have faith, and you shall not have faith until you love one another. Have compassion on those who are on earth, and he who is in heaven will have compassion on you' (Hadith in Bukhari cited in Maqsood 2000:19).

Isnt this a little contradictory to the way you treat homosexuals?

Just a few more interesting points about our relationship with animals

Amid all the panting, a dog at play makes a distinctive, breathy exhalation that can trigger playfulness in other dogs, says a Nevada researcher. Yes, it might be the dog version of a laugh.

Yet another student of play, Marc Bekoff of the University of Colorado in Boulder, says he thinks he knows the panting sound Simonet describes. "When I get down on all fours and go up to dogs and go 'hhuhahhuhahhuh,' they get very solicitous," he says. "Whether it turns out to be like a laugh or not doesn't matter in the end, because what's important are all the questions it opens up about how communications work."

Source

The latest twist in the debate over how much DNA separates humans from chimpanzees suggests we are so closely related that chimps should not only be part of the same taxonomic family, but also the same genus.

The new study found that 99.4 percent of the most critical DNA sites are identical in the corresponding human and chimp genes. With that close a relationship, the two living chimp species belong in the genus Homo, says Morris Goodman of Wayne State University in Detroit.

Source




[edit on 16-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

[edit on 16-1-2008 by InSpiteOf]

Reply to Freeborn

To say that culture and religion do not help shape each other is naive.

It’s not naive.
Its a shame that a few Muslims prefer cultural practises more than following Rulings of Islam. They give a bad name to the rest and Than we have to answer for it.

In Islam cultural practices don’t exist!
A Muslim only follows Islamic practises.

No Muslim can perform cultural practise and say it’s a teaching of Islam.If one does that which leads to innovation in Islam which Lead straight to Hellfire.

The Quran has clearly stated that there are two main fundamentals that destroys Islam:
a) To conceal the proper facts.
b) To amalgamate the right and the wrong.

If you look at the similarities between halal and kosher foods you can see that it is culture defining religious beliefs.

How is it culture defining religious beliefs?

Both religions originated from a common source within the same cultural background; hence cultural practices being passed off as religous dogma.

Yeh they originated from a common source but only ONE is Right. The Christians and Jews innovated and changed as time went past but Islam still is in its PURE STATE.

The imposition of Sharia Law is a stated goal of various interpretations of Islam.
Sharia Law itself differs depending on which denomination an individual believes in.
Sunni Muslims follow different Laws to those practiced by Shia Muslims.

Yes Sharia Law will differ according to the different sects in Islam. But theres only a slight difference.

I have no intent to discuss the way Islam allows women to be (mis)treat.
Yet still you refuse to acknowledge the proof presented to you.

No they are just assuming that women are mistreated.
They can’t stand that women don’t SOCIALISE the way its done in West.

If Half a Bil Muslim women are being mistreated, than i ask where are they?
I got Muslim mother, sisters,aunties,cousins and I don’t see them getting mistreated wether in UK or back in the Muslim country. They are not forced to wear the veil or hijab or killed for not wearing the veil/hijab.
Why is it than they still chose to wear the veil even though they know that no one is stopping them?
Why is it that they chose to came away from opposire sex?

Don’t judge everyone with the actions of a few.They don’t even make 0.1% of 1.2Bil population of Muslims.

If the Western women have become liberal about everything, than that doesn’t imply that Muslim women also want liberalism. If they don’t wana have sexual relationships,become alcoholics,interact with men,take drugs,wear miniskirts etc.. than that doesn’t Mean that they are being mistreated or their freedom is taken away.

Understand?

Your religion however demands total obedience and control of every aspect of a followers life.

Allah (subhanawatallah) demands total obedience and everything controlled within the Islamic boundary.

Like I said many times before.Its A TEST.
Follow Allah in this world and you will get the reward in the hereafter.
If you don’t follow Allah in this world you get punished in the hereafter.
Its your choice This life or the Eternal life.

Christianity, on the whole, has developed into a more spiritual and tolerant religion.

That’s why Christianity is decreasing and more are turning towards atheism.

Islam is developing into a uncompromising, hateful religion.

Islam does not compromise that’s why it will always stay in its Pure state. Its a religion of Peace and Love only when one looks at it without negative stance will he understand it properly.

I personally refuse to buy into any of that "your reward is after you die" nonsense and follow my own path.

Am I forcing you to follow my path?

Beside what this thread is arguing concerning some of the verses of the Koran, I would like to make sense of the disturbing way which the angel Gabriel approached Mohammed.
It is documented that after the first time the angel commanded Mohammed to “recite in the name of God”, that Mohammed dint respond, maybe out of terror or bewilderment.
The angel grabbed Mohammed by the throat and shook him while repeating the command again and again.
After the second command, Mohammed still did not respond, so the angel proceed to chook him furiously until Mohammed compelled to do what he was told.
This is how then so called words of God was transmitted. It look like brainwashing then any thing else.
The Christian or the Jewish theologians dare to criticize this aspect of the Koran for the simple reason is that the angel Gabriel is also the link between all three religions.
In the New Testament, Marie get the news that she will be pregnant, Gabriel was the one that tolled her.
Angel Gabriel instructed Moses in the wilderness to write the Book of Genesis.
My late father when ever he wanted to tell me something which he felt important never use force or dissuasion. He just tolled me what ever he wanted and let me by my self to search the truth of it. I think my father was more wise then Gabriel.

Kacou

Reply to InSpiteOf

Prove to me God created you. Give me evidence Eg. Is it in human Genes...

Don’t you think the world is too perfect and balanced without a creator behind it?

Look at a building and a person thinks of the architect, at a sculpture and a person instantly comprehends an artist. But examine the elegant workings of creation, from the complexity and balance of nuclear particle physics to the vastness of space, and a person conceives of…nothing? Surrounded by a world of complexities, we as mankind cannot even assemble the wing of a gnat. And yet the entire World and the entire Universe exists in a state of perfect orchestration as a product of random accidents which moulded Cosmic Chaos into balanced perfection?

Some vote chance, others creation.

You cant, because we have yet to map out what every gene does. The fact that our closest relative (yes, in the animal kingdom) has homosexual tendencies should be tellling.

According to Quran

Humans are trustees responsible to God for the care of their fellow creatures (Al-Baqara 2:30; Al-An`aam 6:165). Man possesses a differentiating element of the divine spirit (Sad 38:71–72). Man’s animal passions will not come in his way if he can manage to bring them under his control. In a sense, animal instincts are the human’s essential assets and contribute to his growth when properly regulated. Among the innumerable creations, man is the noblest. God has created him as superior to angels, even as they bowed before him (Al-Baqara 2:34).

Mankind was honoured above all creations by God breathing into him the divine spirit, which, if used properly, elevates him above all creation (Al-Hijr 15:26–30). Man can make of himself a cultural being in distinction to the animal, which is created by its environment or heredity. Man alone of the living things has shown himself capable of knowledge required to give him a certain mastery over his environment; this is clearly an ontological leap among the animal kingdom. Indicating the distinctive features of man over animals

According to the Qur’an, the human’s special attribute of being created “in the image of God” (Al-Hijr 15:29; Ghafir 40:64; At-Taghabun 64:3) is reflected not only in speech but in such matters as personality, will, God-consciousness, and morality. Animals lack the capacity for moral agency. Man alone experiences a sense of guilt when he does wrong, as he is a moral being (Ash-Shams 91:8–9). Being a moral agent means being able to choose between right and wrong and being able to act on that choice.

God has exalted man over many of His creations (Al-Isra' 17:70). Man was created in the noblest image (At-Tin 95:4). According to the Qur’an, the origin of language and writing is divine and every human being has a spark of the divine in him (Al-Hijr 15:26–29; Al-Sajda 32:9; Ar-Rahman 55:4; Al-Qalam 68:4; Al-`Alaq 96:4). The human soul is the bearer of human dignity and the responsibility. As the bearer of a great responsibility (amanah), man has been gifted with the intellect to probe into the mysteries of the universe (Al-Ahzab 33:72). He has to
answer and give account before his Creator (Al-Isra' 17:36). This means that humans are created with intellect, volition, emotion, conscience, art, language, creativity, and with both a capacity and a responsibility for making moral and spiritual choices. Man can be moral only because he is rational.

We may say, therefore, without exaggeration, that language is a human prerogative, and probably the chief habit in which we are superior to the ‘dumb’ animals.”

Unlike men, animals are simply in the world; incapable of objectifying either themselves or the world, they live a life without time, submerged in life with no possibility of emerging from it, adjusting and adhering to reality. Man is not only “a being that knows” but also “a being that knows he knows.” As the great Islamic philosopher Al-Ghazzali (1058-1111) writes, “The distinguishing quality of knowledge lifts him [man] up to the celestial world.”

Originally posted by babloyi
Skyfloating, what you mentioned is not a commandment, but a (very suspicious, hadith-wise) prediction of how something will turn out in the future. Since I don't know the circumstances, and neither do you, I fail to see how this means that jews must be killed.

Then I guess muslims are making their antagonism towards jews up out of thin air and islam is not a source of that antagonism at all.

The Quran sets out a guideline as to the best way for a human to live.

And thats where all thinking, evolution, progress, learning, growth and happiness end. By proclaiming to have found the "best" truth and ceasing all development of your god-given faculties you ascend to heights of ignorance. Proclaiming to have the "best" rules out striving for better.