Come to think of it...if anyone here at ATS where find to talk like Mohammed did in the Hadith or like some of the Koran does, we would be banned from membership according to the T & C "Courtesy is Mandatory".

Originally posted by kacou

In your opinion; is Christianity fundamentally engraved in the Old Testament? If yes then every thing that you have pinpointed from the Koran can be find also in the Old Testament if not worse.

I actually added this thread because we already have enough threads pointing out the pro´s and cons of christianity in this Forum.

Muslims themselves often point out what you just pointed out: "Christianity is worse!" The Old Testament being bad, does not excuse the bads of the Koran, though.

As you can gather from my other posts, I am not a Christian. But I´d rather not debate whats "the worse religion".

As for your post, I don’t know much about the Koran so I will leave this to some that have study it.

Well...arent the quotes above revealing enough? After reading them, I am not really interested in studying the book anymore.

Reply to Skyfloating

The reasoning I keep hearing from muslims and their apologists is "Well, those Jihadists are extremists. Islam is the religion of peace". But this reasoning is at odds with the teachings of Islam themselves.

Yes Islam indeed is ‘the religion of peace’.

What you have done is taking all those quotes out of their CONTEXT.

How about you REPOST your topic with the whole of those Surahs.

This was only a small selection. The tip of the iceberg. We could easily go on to highlight koran and hadith texts that talk about jews and christians being pigs that can be slaughtered, about women being worth less than men, about muslims who kill for Allah not going to hell...but I will spare you the gruesome details for now.

If it wasn’t the religion of peace there wouldn’t be 1.2Bil Muslims following it and the numbers of converts wouldn’t keep increasing at the fastest rate than any other religion.

And Where does it say women worth less than a man?

but I will spare you the gruesome details for now.

How about read the Quran yourself properly instead of researching on Propaganda websites to increase your own negative ideas towards Islam.

Reply to Kangjia57:


oh of course. Its ALL taken out of context. In which context should I put manslaughter and the denigration of jews then?

This post comes after returning from a trip to israel & egypt where I talked to many muslims on international affairs. Most muslims I talked to were of the opinion that jews should be wiped out.

I returned from the trip deeply shaken and confused at all the hatred, my tolerant attitude had taken a beat.

So I roam the internet in search of answers "Why are these people so very intolerant?". The quotes from the Koran explain it to me.

Why is it that I there is no threat of me getting killed when publishing anti-christian information, but posting anti-islamic information?



[edit on 15-1-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by babloyi
That is a horrible, horrible attitude. If you stuck to that attitude, you'd never find out that most of those quotes are misquotes, out-of-context quotes, lies, and juggling of verses. They've been posted millions of times, and I've responded to them half a million times. Unfortunately, it seems that I don't have the energy and strength of a website full of hate-fueled anti-islamists. Perhaps a link will suffice this time?
[edit on 15-1-2008 by babloyi]

Well, I had a look at your apologist links and writings. So, it is ME who is hate-filled, and not those quotes?

Your re-interpretation of scripture in all honour but I would say there are good mulsims despitewhat is taught, not because of it.

Originally posted by kacou

You seem to be very connected with your spirituality.
Why would you choose to respond to Muslim that glorifies they faith in a such a way?
Don’t you think that your approach is a continuation of duality which is in contrary to true spiritualism because it divide humans and don’t give space for any reunification in freedom?
This questions is because I am surprise of this post coming from you, surely is another way to approach this matter other then just pinpointing all wrongs about this religion.

What do you think?

From a holistic point of view, you are entirely correct. In private I promote appreciation of other cultures and religions.

From a ATS-debate point of you, where debate is the aim, its a different matter.

You see I for one see the world as no boundary or frontier.
What I do in ATS or outside have for me to be on the same consistence if not I may enrol my self in double game of mind.
You have mention that you where in Egypt and been very surprise about the animosity of the Arabs against the Jew. I have work in the Middle East (8 years in all) and I also found this animosity that you wrote about. But this hostility has never taken the better of me despite some discussion that I had once about the concept of God with some artist and intellectual in Amman. You could be sure that some people there was very disturb about the way I was trying to reinvent God. I am sure that I was hated more then Jew.
And I finally understood that the pursuit of truth is for every one to grasp as it is for every one to experience but not to be indulged to other.
Threw your post I hope that something positive will spring out and make the way for more understanding.
Kacou.

Originally posted by kacou
You see I for one see the world as no boundary or frontier.

yes. but my world of "peace" does not mean everyone having the same opinion or not pointing out wrongs.

Originally posted by babloyi

Are you hate-filled? I don't know. Those websites must be fueled with SOMETHING. They keep churning out the same stuff again and again and again in defiance of all logic.

While that website is a bit too extremist for me too, if not to say, islamophobic, I can safely state that islamic values and lifestyles do not match those of the west. Ive been scolded for showing affection to my girlfriend in public (a kiss on the cheek) and for wearing swimming trunks after getting out of the water. Its these simple things I find offensive.

Do the value systems have to match? No, of course not. Its quite alright for them to differ radically. It is not ok when the attempt is made to impose them on the rest of the world.

It is very obvious that it is talking about a time of battle. I'll be the first to admit that the Quran clearly states that you are allowed to fight back when attacked (something that Christians don't think is mentioned in the Bible), but then, I'd think that fighting for your right to exist is nothing evil.

From the Hadith:


Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Im not amused.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Where does it say women worth less than a man?

I lived in Saudi Arabia for several months. I can tell you first-hand that women are less than second-class citizens. They can't drive a car, or even sit in the front seat with their husband. Goats, on the other hand can sit up front in a car, and often do.

Women can't use the front door at most resturants, can't talk to men, and have to keep covered up with black sheets to make sure they don't tempt men with their evil bodies. The jealousy level is extreme to the point that they aren't allowed to acknowledge males that are not direct family members. When you're talking to another man you just pretend his wife isn't standing beside him. She's invisible as far as you're concerned. I'd say she was a dog on a leash, but at least you're allowed to say "hi" to a dog.

All the things that women take for granted in the West, voting, holding a job, talking to the bus driver, going shopping, wearing a pretty dress, having fun with girlfriends, or just driving to the store. That's all gone in the Islamic society I lived in.

But please, carry on and tell us how great women have it in Islam.

Reply to dbates

I dont think you understood my question properly.

Let me repeat again Clearly.

Where does it say women are worth less than a man in Islam?

And please dont involve cultural practises.

Reply to Skyfloating

Islam and its teachings have ALWAYS stayed the same,WILL always stay the same.NOTHiNG will be changed no matter what the West thinks.

If you dont like it than keep away from it SIMPLE.

And if you dont like the views of being 'the unbeliever' according to Islam Than i invite you to become a Muslim and become part of us.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Skyfloating
Islam and its teachings have ALWAYS stayed the same,WILL always stay the same.NOTHiNG will be changed no matter what the West thinks.

If you dont like it than keep away from it SIMPLE.

And if you dont like the views of being 'the unbeliever' according to Islam Than i invite you to become a Muslim and become part of us.

Discussions with many muslims have ended this way. You present them the facts. They deny it. You present more facts. Then they say: "Well, if you dont like it, then keep away!!!!"

Originally posted by kangjia57
And please dont involve cultural practises.

I know, it's convenient to write this off as just cultural practices, but it's odd that any-time we see Islamic ruled government, their culture tends to gravitate towards what I described. This isn't a big deal to you because you're not a woman living in an Islamic controlled society. How do I know this? Because you're using a computer to communicate with other men. That's a flogging or a beating with a shoe in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Iran. They all have such interesting "cultural practises" (sic) in these countries. Odd how they are all quite similar. I wonder what the connection is?