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The Case for the Masonic Dollar Bill

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posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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Inherent in this theory is something which is not unique to these boards: the idea that all symbolism must have some innate hidden meaning, and most have "evolved" from use in a different place. This sort of evolutionary view of symbolism is absolutely unique to conspiracy theory because it allows for the creation of such theory - I have not seen evidence that this is the norm for most use of symbolism. The meaning of symbols is relative, and when people use symbols that are similar or even exactly the same as those used by others they almost never continue to carry the archaic meanings that they once did. If anyone wants, I can cite several articles about this.

I know most people don't like to believe that, but it is just factually how the use of symbolism works - most of the time. There is NOT as much thought and introspection on the use of symbols as you think. There are exceptions to the rules, but the historical evidence on this does not make it seem like this is one of them.

This thread not only claims this evolutionary view, but the next logical leap is that when anyone of the same characteristic gathers together to do something, they are always ensuring the symbols of whatever their characteristics is must be put into their work. I again draw the comparison that all of the people on this committee were men. This line of logic suggests that because of this shared characteristic the members made an active attempt to put phallus like objects all over the one dollar bill.




posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Lets take for instance, the symbolic meaning of the olive branch.

In Greek mythology, Athena offered the Olive tree to the city of Athens upon its creation. (s)

In Ancient Rome, defeated armies would "carry olive branches as a gesture of peace." (s)

On the Seal, the olive branch denotes the power of peace. (s)

Wouldn't you say this demonstrates an evolution?

IMO, this isn't unique to conspiracy theory.



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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USA ARE A MASONIC STATE. Case closed.



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Many Masons feel, that Dr. Morris' relatively weak article has "set the record straight".


The masons on this site are hilarious, as see-through as glass and I certainly wouldn't be going to them for verification, remember they are bound by secret oaths!!!!!! Their fun is so good it has to be kept a secret from everyone else...in case you might learn something they don't want you to know!!!
Here is an extract from an email I received from some guy in Britain recently. He linked to this website among others
www.secondfamily-uk.com...


Freemasonry is a criminal organisation

A Freemason is a person who knowingly destroys peoples lives for self
gain.

Freemasons portray themselves as a good charitable fraternity of men.
They own the
media so they get to say what they want. They have infiltrated all of
society. It is nothing
less than an international money making scam (same as the crooked
pyramid schemes).
Did you know that the ninth degree Masons take their vows to kill for
Freemasonry ????
some charity. Masons are also the NWO's foot-soldiers. All secret
societies, orders and
cults are as one (intertwined) with this evil human virus
called "Freemasonry".



--------------------------------------
Trimmed external quote

[edit on 17/1/08 by masqua]



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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The anti-masons on this site are hilarious, as see-through as glass and I certainly wouldn't be going to them for verification, remember they aren't even a member of the society they spend all their time bashing!!!!!! Yet somehow their anti-mason knowledge is so good they know everything about the organization that has somehow been hidden from all of the actual masons...that way they can propose whatever crazy stuff they want without proof!!!

This is an example of a well known anti-mason website that has absolutely no proof for anything it says, and verges on comedy. It claims..among other things...that when peoples tires go out, its "the masons." But we wouldn't want anyone to...I don't know..actually have any facts for anything they say - right? Or..you know...actually provide any proof for their claims?

I have to laugh at the anti-masons sometimes. Some of the things they are incredibly hilarious, and yet it is frightening that some people would be so gullible.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 05:27 PM
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Golddragnet and Lightindarkness

I'm sure you both have your reasons but....

It would be nice if this thread could not descend into a free for all. Not every thread related to Masonry has to. Please guys do a search and find a suitable thread to continue this debate. I hate to be mother but this is getting a little bit boring.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by golddragnet

The masons on this site are hilarious, as see-through as glass and I certainly wouldn't be going to them for verification, remember they are bound by secret oaths!!!!!! Their fun is so good it has to be kept a secret from everyone else...in case you might learn something they don't want you to know!!!
Here is an extract from an email I received from some guy in Britain recently.]


Well I would say that "some guy in Britain" is certainly a credible source,I mean if you can't trust some guy in Britain that sends junk propaganda email who can you trust?You should ask "some guy" if he is related to "that guy".



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


As a I said, there are exceptions to the rule. But even your example disputes the often touted evolutionary view of symbolism: note that the meaning of the olive branch is actually relatively stable, instead of some evolving means of continual complexity that is directly related to the organization/state using it. Yet there are plenty of other symbols that have completely opposite meanings from one time to another. A very rudimentary example would be the old "thumbs up" sign. Today, thumbs up is good. In the Roman arena, thumbs up meant death. Very different meanings.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
A very rudimentary example would be the old "thumbs up" sign. Today, thumbs up is good. In the Roman arena, thumbs up meant death. Very different meanings.


I can't believe the movie The Gladiator got it wrong!


Thanks for your input LiD, truly insightful stuff.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by masonica_esoterica
Well I would say that "some guy in Britain" is certainly a credible source,I mean if you can't trust some guy in Britain that sends junk propaganda email who can you trust?You should ask "some guy" if he is related to "that guy".


I dunno, I would tend to believe that 'some guy' and 'that guy' are members of the nebulous secret group that controls the world through soundbites and document snippets and is known as the 'They' ... and, Lord knows, 'They' say alot of things.


Your pal,
Meat.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by masonica_esoterica
Well I would say that "some guy in Britain" is certainly a credible source,I mean if you can't trust some guy in Britain that sends junk propaganda email who can you trust?You should ask "some guy" if he is related to "that guy".


Some guy, is known to me, he isn't to you, or to most other posters here, which is why I simply refer to him as "some guy", it would be pointless to give you his name and you don't need to know it. On this forum you are just "some guy"(or girl, or child)

[edit on 18-1-2008 by golddragnet]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
A very rudimentary example would be the old "thumbs up" sign. Today, thumbs up is good. In the Roman arena, thumbs up meant death. Very different meanings.


LinD, I was under the impression the gesture of thumbs in (pointing at the neck or chest) and the cheering of the word Iugula (jugular) meant death.



posted on Jan, 21 2008 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by golddragnet

Originally posted by masonica_esoterica
Well I would say that "some guy in Britain" is certainly a credible source,I mean if you can't trust some guy in Britain that sends junk propaganda email who can you trust?You should ask "some guy" if he is related to "that guy".


Some guy, is known to me, he isn't to you, or to most other posters here, which is why I simply refer to him as "some guy", it would be pointless to give you his name and you don't need to know it. On this forum you are just "some guy"(or girl, or child)


So, in other words, your source isn't a reputable source.

aaaaaand your argument falls apart, the thread disintegrates into another "we hate Masons, yes we do! We hate Masons, how about you?" thread.

Yeeha.

Your pal,
Meat.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 12:00 PM
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Great post ConspiracyNut23. I'm the guy who you quoted at Conspiracy Archive; I assure everyone that the excerpt (from the New Age Magazine) is 100% legit. I can provide a scan if need be.

Regarding Hieronimus, he's considered the foremost expert on the seal by occultists, new agers, Freemasons, the State Department, the Treasury Department and the White House (and numerous ex-Presidents) - pretty much everyone! The cuttingedge.org citation that you referenced, however - them citing his America's Secret Destiny, p. 59 - is indeed dubious. The claim that the "symbol of the All-Seeing Eye within a pyramid was appropriated in 1776 by the Illuminati," wasn't suggested by Hieronimus himself; he merely says that, quote: "Many authors in the esoteric tradition have attempted to read into the seal's design meanings that originated with the Freemasons, Rosicrucians, and Illuminati. Many have even claimed it as their own. [William Guy] Carr states that Weishaupt adopted the seal's reverse as the symbol of his new society when he founded the order of the Illuminati on May 1, 1776."

Suffice it to say, cuttingedge.org here are deceiving their readers if indeed they are suggesting that Hieronimus is the one who said this. They know full-well that it was Carr who said it, and that Hieronimus was merely letting the reader know. In this, he is absolutely warranted. As far as I can't stand Carr and his asinine "books," nonetheless it is true that it was probably him who originated the myth that the Great Seal of the US was in fact the seal of the Illuminati. As far as I have been able to uncover, it begins with Carr.


Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

Dr. Robert Hieronimus ... Is this guy legit?



He's only the expert through the sheer fact that no one has ventured to take on the task themselves. Some of his speculations are complete fluff, and not based in reason at all; though in other places his research is dead-on and completely historical. He seems to want to cater to the entire spectrum of readers at the same time.


Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

(I'm assuming of course that the quote is false, and that the Illuminati did not use the All-Seeing Eye, if true than that would be a whole other ball of wax)



No, they didn't. But since you've read Le Forestier, you know that the Illuminati did utilize the pyramid as a prominent device within their Minerval rituals - conspicuously, even. It surprised the hell out of me. The motto that Le Forestier said had surrounded the pyramid of the Illuminati, was also very reminiscent of the motto (surrounding the pyramid) which William Barton had suggested in the third committee for the US Seal.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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Excellent post ConspiracyNut.

Thanks for reminding me that not all masonry-conspiracy-theorists are nutcases.




The Dollar Bill does have symbolism that is somewhat related to masonry.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Skyfloating]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
 



Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Great post ConspiracyNut23. I'm the guy who you quoted at Conspiracy Archive; I assure everyone that the excerpt (from the New Age Magazine) is 100% legit. I can provide a scan if need be.


Welcome to ATS! I'm a fan of your work. Your article on the Bavarian Illuminati is IMO the best article on the Illuminati found on the Internet. Its footnotes are priceless. I bought LeForestier's book largely due to your recommendation there.

I was surprise that you didn't have Mozart on the list of Bavarian Illuminati, were you not able to find a source for this? A member who is quite knowledgeable here, Masonic Light has claim a few times that Mozart was a Bavarian Illuminati and that his opera, "The Magic Flute" was largely Illuminati.


Regarding Hieronimus, he's considered the foremost expert on the seal by occultists, new agers, Freemasons, the State Department, the Treasury Department and the White House (and numerous ex-Presidents) - pretty much everyone!


I've since bought the second edition of Hieronimus' America's Secret Destiny which for some odd reason was retitled Founding Fathers, Secret Societies. It seems The Eagle and the Shield might be a great book to further study the creation of the Great Seal. Thanks for clarifying the misquote.


It surprised the hell out of me. The motto that Le Forestier said had surrounded the pyramid of the Illuminati, was also very reminiscent of the motto (surrounding the pyramid) which William Barton had suggested in the third committee for the US Seal.


Very interesting observations. For those who haven't read Leforestier's book, the Minerval carpet featured a pyramid with the letters "D" and "P" on each side. The Illuminati candidate later learned that the D and the P represented "Deo Proximo".

[edit on 11/5/08 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men
Great post ConspiracyNut23. I'm the guy who you quoted at Conspiracy Archive; I assure everyone that the excerpt (from the New Age Magazine) is 100% legit. I can provide a scan if need be.


No need to, I don't think anyone questioned the validity of the article's existence. It's just that most historians, including Scottish Rite Masons, do not find what is said in that excerpt to be reliable.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 02:39 PM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


Thanks for the acknowledgment! Sorry for the lack of a part 2, or 3. The reason is that for last couple of years I have been hard at work on a book (Perfectibilists: The 18th Century Bavarian Order of the Illuminati) about the Order, instead. However, now that its finished part 2 of the series will be posted soon.

Regarding Mozart, there's one author who has outright stated that he was a member of the Illuminati. The claim was made by Richard Koch, Br. Mozart, Freimaurer und Illuminaten (1911). Koch claims he saw a list of Illuminati members with Mozart's name on it, and that he was initiated before he even went to Vienna. He cites the Carolineum Museum in Salzburg, but alas no one has been able to find the mysterious document. Perhaps after he had published the book, someone went there immediately and stole the list and it is suppressed to this day; that is a possibility, I suppose. A couple of authors have ventured theories that he was a member of the Rosicrucians and the Asiatic Brethren - that I can see, as the Magic Flute practically outs him with its hermetic, alchemical symbolism.

Besides the Koch claim, Mozart has never been found on any lists of Illuminati, and over a thousand members have been identified thus far (I have constructed bios of 447 of them in my forthcoming book). The curious thing about it is the fact that all his major contacts throughout his entire life, have all been either Freemasons or indeed members of the Bavarian Illuminati. So much so, that Mozart - and even Beethoven - are mentioned more than any other individual in the index of my book. Mozart and Beethoven biographies are a veritable goldmine for info on the lives of the Bavarian Illuminati. The trick is to know who was a real member and who wasn't. Once you have confirmation though, it is relatively easy to research their backgrounds - simply because most of them already have abundant information written about them in history books; the Illuminati, much like Freemasonry during the era, had recruited the most powerful and prominent individuals.

The Lodge that Mozart belonged to, Zur Wohlthatigkeit, was rife with Viennese Illuminati; and the other Lodge he had frequented and was initiated into the Fellow Craft Degree, Zur wahren Eintracht, had Ignaz Elder von Born as a master. The latter was the head of the entire Illuminati for Vienna and most of Austria. He and Mozart were incredibly good friends, as was Leopold Mozart, as well. The character of Sarastro, high-priest of Isis and Osiris, in Mozart's Magic Flute, has traditionally been attributed as an homage to von Born.



posted on May, 11 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
No need to, I don't think anyone questioned the validity of the article's existence. It's just that most historians, including Scottish Rite Masons, do not find what is said in that excerpt to be reliable.


I was responding to these posts:


Originally posted by The Axeman
... exemplary post. Good rsearch, good sources (conspiracy archive is questionable but I'll give you the benefit), ...



Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
I was aware of the questionable source used. However, he is supposedly quoting the New Age articles verbatim. I've really enjoyed his essay on the Bavarian Illuminati and he seems like a good source, I doubt he would change words from actual quotes. Of course anyone with access to the New Age Magazine archive could easily verify its legitimacy.


...Meaning if someone thinks Conspiracy Archive is questionable, then Conspiracy Archive certainly can, and is perfectly willing to help assuage that suspicion.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
It's just that most historians, including Scottish Rite Masons, do not find what is said in that excerpt to be reliable.


No, actually; I can assuredly state that you most definitely haven't in fact spoken to "most historians," or most Scottish Rite Masons about that particular issue of the Masonic New Age Magazine.

The reason why I chose to excerpt that issue was the fact that it was from an official organ of Freemasonry, with the opinion of two high-ranking Scottish Rite masons on what it is they believe to be the esoteric meaning behind the (Masonic; their words!) symbolism on the one dollar bill. CN23 utilized it just as I'd hoped someone would, because it represents another Masonic opinion which is just as authoritative (probably more) than other attempts at debunking we are continually subjected to all over the interwebs, and even now in the Masonic-friendly MSM.

In short: The New Age Magazine article is a perfectly valid counter to the prevailing monotony of denial.

[edit on 11-5-2008 by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men]



posted on May, 12 2008 @ 02:26 AM
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Can someone translate the phrase Deo Proximo?
(From the minerval carpet)

and the phrase Deo Favente?
(Thomson's suggestion)



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