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If creationism is from God then why is it so imperfect.

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posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
I have no idea what your talking about. I have to assume that mans sin is why we have had so many species go extinct? This is interesting since most species that have gone extinct did so before humans where here, at least there is no evidence that humans where here.

And the point is...
Btw are you trying to impose creationism as belief of Christians?


Originally posted by LDragonFire
It amazes me that people still believe or have faith in a story with so many flaws, that they will believe aliens are really demons

Even aliens are not demons [in which I don’t believe], what so called aliens have with my faith?


Originally posted by LDragonFire
and the fossilized remains of dinosaurs where put here by the devil.

Please, who spread that stupidity?


Originally posted by LDragonFire
Again if God Created all species, then why would there be a 99.9% failure rate?

This is basic thesis’ switch.
Animals weren’t created immortal.




posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by Austin9599945

First off..I never said I needed anyone.
I was simply desrcribing the ignorant girl(women)I dated.

second..Im not too young to date...i AM too young to love.I have never claimed to love a girlfriend...I for one understand loves complexity and realize its beyond my maturity level.
thanks.

I find him unjust,sorry.Infinite punishment for finite sins.
He judges beliefs over actions.
If you believe = you get heaven.
you dont believe in me but save lives,cure cancer,help people etc = you burn for eternity.




There was once two scientists who went on a journey to a remote part of the jungle. They argued for some time as to whether a guide would be best for them in their journey but one of them got frustrated because the other scientist could not find a guide he trusted so he trekked off on his own, even though the other highly objected. Finally he meet up with a guide he trusted so they went off into the jungle and they reached their destination in good time but no sign of the other scientist for another 2 days. He came stumbling out of the jungle into the camp bleeding, missing several fingers, with a fever, severe blisters and dehydrated. Near death in other words. He was cared for and when he woke up he asked the other scientist, "How did you get here unscathed?" The other scientist replied, "I had a guide" So he looked over at his friends guide and we was missing part of one leg, an eye and had a mangled arm. He said to his friend, "Couldn't find a good guide, huh?" "Oh no" His college replied, "He was the best because after speaking with him he knew where all the trouble spots were!"

Do you understand that in regards to your "girl troubles"? That was my intention.

Do you agree with every scientist who preaches his or her theory on evolution? Is there 100% accord across the plain of the church of evolution? That answer would most likely be "NO". So how is it any different for preachers giving a sermon? If I claim that evolution says this and says that but you correct me I would be in error to think ALL evolutionists believe the same thing. I debate and argue against many "preachers" of Gods word because many are ignorant and teaching false doctrine.

Lastly, you disagree with someone being punished for infinity because they committed finite sins, correct? Tell me please, did they commit those sins against an Infinite or finite God? Since God is Infinite His Love and also Wrath are Infinite.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by SilverSmith

Originally posted by Austin9599945

First off..I never said I needed anyone.
I was simply desrcribing the ignorant girl(women)I dated.

second..Im not too young to date...i AM too young to love.I have never claimed to love a girlfriend...I for one understand loves complexity and realize its beyond my maturity level.
thanks.

I find him unjust,sorry.Infinite punishment for finite sins.
He judges beliefs over actions.
If you believe = you get heaven.
you dont believe in me but save lives,cure cancer,help people etc = you burn for eternity.




There was once two scientists who went on a journey to a remote part of the jungle. They argued for some time as to whether a guide would be best for them in their journey but one of them got frustrated because the other scientist could not find a guide he trusted so he trekked off on his own, even though the other highly objected. Finally he meet up with a guide he trusted so they went off into the jungle and they reached their destination in good time but no sign of the other scientist for another 2 days. He came stumbling out of the jungle into the camp bleeding, missing several fingers, with a fever, severe blisters and dehydrated. Near death in other words. He was cared for and when he woke up he asked the other scientist, "How did you get here unscathed?" The other scientist replied, "I had a guide" So he looked over at his friends guide and we was missing part of one leg, an eye and had a mangled arm. He said to his friend, "Couldn't find a good guide, huh?" "Oh no" His college replied, "He was the best because after speaking with him he knew where all the trouble spots were!"

Do you understand that in regards to your "girl troubles"? That was my intention.

Do you agree with every scientist who preaches his or her theory on evolution? Is there 100% accord across the plain of the church of evolution? That answer would most likely be "NO". So how is it any different for preachers giving a sermon? If I claim that evolution says this and says that but you correct me I would be in error to think ALL evolutionists believe the same thing. I debate and argue against many "preachers" of Gods word because many are ignorant and teaching false doctrine.

Lastly, you disagree with someone being punished for infinity because they committed finite sins, correct? Tell me please, did they commit those sins against an Infinite or finite God? Since God is Infinite His Love and also Wrath are Infinite.


Yes your story made good sense.

and so did the second part...perhaps those sermons were incorrect.

although I understand what you mean in your last part...I still find in unjust.
but otherwise you made sense.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
Religions states that God, created all life.

If God created all life then why has 99.9% of all life that has ever existed now extinct? Are we to believe that God created species a Vast amount of them just to perish? This "design" seems to be very flawed.

A List of extinct animals


Of all species that have existed on Earth, 99.9 percent are now extinct. Many of them perished in five cataclysmic events.

According to a recent poll, seven out of ten biologists think we are currently in the throes of a sixth mass extinction. Some say it could wipe out as many as 90 percent of all species living today. Yet other scientists dispute such dire projections.

As our panelists debate the issue, they also consider how one species -- Homo sapiens -- may be triggering a modern mass extinction.
A modern mass extinction


Go look in the mirror. You came from dirt. That is a miracle, God or not. So far no one has been able to do better and no one has done it from scratch.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Austin9599945
I find him unjust,sorry.Infinite punishment for finite sins.
He judges beliefs over actions.
If you believe = you get heaven.

you dont believe in me but save lives,cure cancer,help people etc = you burn for eternity.

That’s Protestant dogma from Reformation and Protestants believe in that. Sadly as they claim that is derived from Bible, but it's not true. But that’s not the situation in Orthodox Church [and Roman Catholic, too].



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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You're both incorrect.

Scripture, which is read by both Roman Catholics and Protestants (Reformed Theology) declares that God alone "saves" those whom He has predestined for such.

No one ever chooses to be saved, no one ever seeks God unless first called by God. For those citing "free will" then I challenge you to find that for me in Scripture.

God is the Potter, we the clay, who are we to say to the Potter, "What are you doing (with me)? Some God has set aside for a blessing and others to be damned. There is no working oneself into heaven, there is no amount of goodness that we can do on our part to be saved nor can one pray themselves into a position of Gods grace.

God alone saves us and also calls us.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by SilverSmith
You're both incorrect.

Scripture, which is read by both Roman Catholics and Protestants (Reformed Theology) declares that God alone "saves" those whom He has predestined for such.

No one ever chooses to be saved, no one ever seeks God unless first called by God. For those citing "free will" then I challenge you to find that for me in Scripture.

God is the Potter, we the clay, who are we to say to the Potter, "What are you doing (with me)? Some God has set aside for a blessing and others to be damned. There is no working oneself into heaven, there is no amount of goodness that we can do on our part to be saved nor can one pray themselves into a position of Gods grace.

God alone saves us and also calls us.

My point was that Protestant dogma that only faith is enough is wrong [so called material principle of Reformation].
Predestination in Roman Catholic Church is different from Calvinists even both are based on St Augustine teach.
www.catholicsource.net...



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by SilverSmith
You're both incorrect.

Scripture, which is read by both Roman Catholics and Protestants (Reformed Theology) declares that God alone "saves" those whom He has predestined for such.

No one ever chooses to be saved, no one ever seeks God unless first called by God. For those citing "free will" then I challenge you to find that for me in Scripture.

God is the Potter, we the clay, who are we to say to the Potter, "What are you doing (with me)? Some God has set aside for a blessing and others to be damned. There is no working oneself into heaven, there is no amount of goodness that we can do on our part to be saved nor can one pray themselves into a position of Gods grace.

God alone saves us and also calls us.


I was just saying what I was taught by educated christians.
And from talking to them the only way to get to heaven is through christ.

doing good gets you nowhere..saving lives etc.

thats my problem with it.
But you said something about Roman Catholics and Protestants?

what was that again?That no one can choose to save themselves?
Basically your life is already planed out and you cant be saved etc?

if thats what you meant I didnt know that.
I never really understood the different branches of christianity and stuff.
so if someone could sum them up it would be awesome.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by Austin9599945
I was just saying what I was taught by educated christians.
And from talking to them the only way to get to heaven is through christ.

doing good gets you nowhere..saving lives etc.

Yes, yes, that's the exactly in what Protestants believe! And that's wrong.


Originally posted by Austin9599945
what was that again?That no one can choose to save themselves?
Basically your life is already planed out and you cant be saved etc?

Again, that's Protestant dogma.


Originally posted by Austin9599945
I never really understood the different branches of christianity and stuff.
so if someone could sum them up it would be awesome.

There are huge differencies between Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic and Protestants [I talk about traditional Protestants from XVI c].



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by Austin9599945

what was that again?That no one can choose to save themselves?
Basically your life is already planed out and you cant be saved etc?

if thats what you meant I didnt know that.
I never really understood the different branches of christianity and stuff.
so if someone could sum them up it would be awesome.




Everyone is capable of doing both good and bad deeds and this is in the realm of subjectivity. Lets say that good deeds could grant us entrance into heaven. What if I then said that my good deeds are far greater than yours thus I have set the bar higher for entrance into heaven or that my position in heaven should be greater?

So then my deeds are based on selfishness. Scripture though states that no one is "good" for when we state "Oprah is good because she helps so many people" sure it's a good thing but Oprah herself is not "good" in the sense that her goodness can save her for God is the Ultimate Good and is her "goodness" greater than Gods?

God demands perfection from His creation but who is perfect? Who can then be saved? No one can, thus none can save themselves and no one can do any amount of good deeds to work for their salvation. Christ alone, God Incarnate was and is perfect. This is why Christ died for He alone was perfect and in Him the Believer rests their salvation. Therefore when God looks at the Believer He does not see their imperfection but rather Christs Perfection for He is our Advocate. Yet in my daily life I am a sinner, in a practical manner but perfect IN Christ in a positional manner.

So it is then asked, "What can I do to be saved?" The answer is, "Believe upon the name of Christ Jesus" Works are what the Believer does IN Christ so as to be a witness of their salvation and changed life for again Scripture states....."If a man be in Christ they are a new creation, all things of old have passed away, behold new things come"

I'm sure this will only stir more questions which is fine. I'm trying to give the most concise reply as possible in this limited format.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by SilverSmith

Originally posted by Austin9599945

what was that again?That no one can choose to save themselves?
Basically your life is already planed out and you cant be saved etc?

if thats what you meant I didnt know that.
I never really understood the different branches of christianity and stuff.
so if someone could sum them up it would be awesome.




Everyone is capable of doing both good and bad deeds and this is in the realm of subjectivity. Lets say that good deeds could grant us entrance into heaven. What if I then said that my good deeds are far greater than yours thus I have set the bar higher for entrance into heaven or that my position in heaven should be greater?

So then my deeds are based on selfishness. Scripture though states that no one is "good" for when we state "Oprah is good because she helps so many people" sure it's a good thing but Oprah herself is not "good" in the sense that her goodness can save her for God is the Ultimate Good and is her "goodness" greater than Gods?

God demands perfection from His creation but who is perfect? Who can then be saved? No one can, thus none can save themselves and no one can do any amount of good deeds to work for their salvation. Christ alone, God Incarnate was and is perfect. This is why Christ died for He alone was perfect and in Him the Believer rests their salvation. Therefore when God looks at the Believer He does not see their imperfection but rather Christs Perfection for He is our Advocate. Yet in my daily life I am a sinner, in a practical manner but perfect IN Christ in a positional manner.

So it is then asked, "What can I do to be saved?" The answer is, "Believe upon the name of Christ Jesus" Works are what the Believer does IN Christ so as to be a witness of their salvation and changed life for again Scripture states....."If a man be in Christ they are a new creation, all things of old have passed away, behold new things come"

I'm sure this will only stir more questions which is fine. I'm trying to give the most concise reply as possible in this limited format.


yes more questions indeed.
but you've said it in a way that makes better sense then Ive heard before from others.

the way YOU said it makes the good deeds situation make sense...

but what if there were no rankings in heaven?you're in and you're in.
therefore no ones BETTER deeds show.

I kinda just made a pro christian argument in my head...if deeds were the case then people would omly be good just so they could be in heaven.
well...thats sorta true.
But I think if it were based on deeds alone the world would be better off..possibly...
But I think the belief in scripture is kinda the same way.For example...WHY are you religious?

I dont think its because you love God that much...I dont think you're a christian BECAUSE you love Him,that stems off later....I think it STARTS with the fear hell...(im sure im wrong...but eh..just hear me out)
But alot of them wont admit it for fear of being accused of "only believing it out of fear"

regardless..its STARTING to make more sense...but some things still stump me.

Theres sooooo many religions the whole "what if im wrong" situation always pops into my head.

I just wish the first commandment was "thy shall not travel faster then light"

man i'd so be religious.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Austin9599945

yes more questions indeed.
but you've said it in a way that makes better sense then Ive heard before from others.

the way YOU said it makes the good deeds situation make sense...

but what if there were no rankings in heaven?you're in and you're in.
therefore no ones BETTER deeds show.

I kinda just made a pro christian argument in my head...if deeds were the case then people would omly be good just so they could be in heaven.
well...thats sorta true.
But I think if it were based on deeds alone the world would be better off..possibly...
But I think the belief in scripture is kinda the same way.For example...WHY are you religious?

I dont think its because you love God that much...I dont think you're a christian BECAUSE you love Him,that stems off later....I think it STARTS with the fear hell...(im sure im wrong...but eh..just hear me out)
But alot of them wont admit it for fear of being accused of "only believing it out of fear"

regardless..its STARTING to make more sense...but some things still stump me.

Theres sooooo many religions the whole "what if im wrong" situation always pops into my head.

I just wish the first commandment was "thy shall not travel faster then light"

man i'd so be religious.



Questions are fine, in fact in Scripture God says, "Come let us reason together"

You are confusing "religion" with being a Believer. Religion, much of what we see today, is man made. It's mans way of trying to "feel" more righteous or closer to God by way of doing ritualistic things such as saying the same prayers over and over. The way "religion" is described in Scripture is to "visit orphans and widows in their distress"

It can be looked at in this manner. Religion is a person seeking to reach God by way of deeds and a Believer is one who knows God has reached down to them in their sin and saved them. So a Believer then seeks to do good deeds BECAUSE they have already been saved. The religious person seeks to do good deeds to obtain salvation.

Again, I did not seek God but rather God called me, as with all Believers. So the "turn or burn" sermons are of no effect. I had no fear of hell because I had no fear of God as a non-believer.

Lets sit down with a Hindu, a Buddhist, an agnostic, an atheist and a Christian and have some pie. This is a special pie called "Truth" How can each group get a slice of this Truth when each group claims to have the sole Truth?

A Hindu or Buddhist may claim that they are "all inclusive" yet the atheist then says to the Hindu, "I would like to be a Hindu yet I wish to keep my atheist tenets" This would be impossible because the Hindu believes in over 2 million gods. Suddenly the Hindu belief is not so "all inclusive" is it? So as long as you believe as other Hindus you can then be a Hindu. See how that works? So again Truth can never be relative but must be Absolute.



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 12:57 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD


But I'm going to preempt your 99.9% extinctions vs. new species from an evolutionists point of view. I get emails from them daily and know how they think. Envy me. They'll simply say these newly discovered species are nothing more than evolution popping up new species in our own time.


The point of evolution is that things don't just "pop up". Plus, when the world is 3/4 ocean we're bound to be discovering new species every now and then.
I always wonder... haven't Christians ever thought that maybe God's plan was to have things evolve? Is that such a terrible thought. After all, in alot of ways we're just an experiment to him/her/them/it, right? When a scientist wants to see how a bacteria grows they throw it in a petri dish and see what happens next. I think Earth is the petri dish, and we're the bacteria.



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by HannahSolo
The point of evolution is that things don't just "pop up".


I thought the expression "popping up" would have been understood as just a figure of speech. My apologies. Yes, "popping up" as in a new species forming through natural selection over time.


Plus, when the world is 3/4 ocean we're bound to be discovering new species every now and then.


Exactly what the other poster said: How can we claim 99.9% of species have gone extinct when we don't even know how many species currently exist with so many being discovered?

You answered the question for us: We can't. lol


I always wonder... haven't Christians ever thought that maybe God's plan was to have things evolve? Is that such a terrible thought.


Why, yes we have. See my thread on the subject HERE that also includes Bible passages. But please understand I do not believe in macroevolution. That thread was just me tinkering with the thought, if macroevolution is eventually proven without a doubt (this still has not happened), would it really disprove the Genesis account? Nope.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 02:25 AM
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I just wanted to provide from a different point of view, and answer to the OP of this thread. d
this world is imperfect because of Mans sin, not just because Adam sinned, but because man continues to grow more self-centered and further from God.
if you read the bible it explains why we have suffering in the world and death.
God made a perfect world and man wrecked it. Its not Gods fault, thats like getting in a car accident and asking the dealership why the built a smashed car. its crazy.

this is my view.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 02:53 AM
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I was gonna give you a story but the very fist reply from Phoenix says it way better than my story could of!



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by Methuselah
 


Yea I think you have hit that right. But Im just going to add that I think that man only sinned becuse Saten brought that to man - God made man with out sin, man didnt know what sin was. Then Saten comes along with this new thing and because man didnt have the experience to know Saten was bad he did what he was told and thus sin came into the earth.

Personaly I think God knowingly let it happen and hence a reason for us to be here. God wouldnt want anybody in heaven - we have to prove ourselves on earth by doing what he tells us, its not about doing what the church wants or what man wants but rather what God wants. What Im trying to get at is that our time on Earth is like a test for us to prove to God we are loyal to him. He doesnt need us to prove it to him but we need it to be imprinted on us so we can (with his help) resist sin and all that.

Hope that all makes sence.

-fm



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by Methuselah
I just wanted to provide from a different point of view, and answer to the OP of this thread. d
this world is imperfect because of Mans sin, not just because Adam sinned, but because man continues to grow more self-centered and further from God.
if you read the bible it explains why we have suffering in the world and death.
God made a perfect world and man wrecked it. Its not Gods fault, thats like getting in a car accident and asking the dealership why the built a smashed car. its crazy.

this is my view.


Incorrect, most species went extinct before humans were here. So what you say is impossible.



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire

Originally posted by Methuselah
I just wanted to provide from a different point of view, and answer to the OP of this thread. d
this world is imperfect because of Mans sin, not just because Adam sinned, but because man continues to grow more self-centered and further from God.
if you read the bible it explains why we have suffering in the world and death.
God made a perfect world and man wrecked it. Its not Gods fault, thats like getting in a car accident and asking the dealership why the built a smashed car. its crazy.

this is my view.



Incorrect, most species went extinct before humans were here. So what you say is impossible.


Im going to have to agree with you on that one. Personaly I think its more the fault of the "demons" etc... who continue to pull man kind away from God.

-fm

[edit on 30-3-2008 by funky monk]



posted on Mar, 30 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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In answer to the OP, creationism only APPEARS imperfect. We haven't discovered everything God made, nor are we probably ever going to.

God is the creator and is above all earthly knowledge. If we knew everything, then wouldn't we ourselves be Gods?

Our God-given gift is to be creative...to create. But we will never be able to create a universe or an earth. That would require the knowledge of God.



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