To ease some tensions, I'll sum it all up in one simple statement: According to the Bible, nature is currently flawed but it is supposed to be flawed due to the fall. It will later be restored to what it was originally intended to be. So, a "flawed" (however you want to interpret it: disease, death, entropy, retardation, etc.) is the order of this age but is not permanent nor was this the original order. In conclusion, there is no conflict if we are comparing current nature to what the Bible says current nature is supposed to be. As for other religions, I do not know.


[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by Austin9599945

With all due respect..and I mean ALL due respect....but if i die tommrow...and god sends me to hell for trying to educate myself about the beautiful world he created...then he's not really the type of god I want to be worshiping anyways.

First off, you're way to young for girlfriends. Ask yourself what good has it brought you? Do you understand better, more of a man or has it brought inner peace to you?

Get yourself together first because you never meet anyone so that you can become "complete". That's a bunch of worldly crap. You need to be complete first then you meet some "woman", not a "girl", that COMPLIMENTS you! If you need someone to "complete you" then you're nothing but half a person.

Secondly, who told you that God "sends you to hell"? If you hold to "free will" then what if you're sending yourself there? What if you hate God and want nothing to do with God yet He makes you go to heaven to be with Him. Wouldn't that then be hell for you?

Thirdly, describe your type of god you would like to worship? I bet you can't name one attribute of Gods?

Lastly, where does God ever state, "I will bless those who educate themselves about the world" ?

Originally posted by SilverSmith
First off, you're way to young for girlfriends. Ask yourself what good has it brought you? Do you understand better, more of a man or has it brought inner peace to you?

Get yourself together first because you never meet anyone so that you can become "complete". That's a bunch of worldly crap. You need to be complete first then you meet some "woman", not a "girl", that COMPLIMENTS you! If you need someone to "complete you" then you're nothing but half a person.

How is this any of our business if he has a girlfriend? I'm not criticizing you. But, seriously. He was just throwing his story out there and probably doesn't feel like debating it. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can. I believe in abstinence, of course, but it is silly to get onto someone for having a girlfriend or boyfriend when he was only sharing a personal story and not starting a debate thread about whether or not he should have one.

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

It has also been noted that the Jews of antiquity lived on average 30-40 years longer than their Gentile counterparts. I believe this is due to their foreknowledge of germs, sanitary procedures, quarantine laws, sterilization of metals, etc. given in their Torah.
So AshleyD Are you saying that the Jews lived longer because they knew how to wipe their butt.

[edit on 1/19/08 by WingedOne]





[edit on 1/19/08 by WingedOne]

Originally posted by AshleyD

How is this any of our business if he has a girlfriend? I'm not criticizing you. But, seriously. He was just throwing his story out there and probably doesn't feel like debating it. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can. I believe in abstinence, of course, but it is silly to get onto someone for having a girlfriend or boyfriend when he was only sharing a personal story and not starting a debate thread about whether or not he should have one.

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

It becomes everyones business when posted in a PUBLIC forum. He posted it and I replied to it.

It would be the same as if someone stated, "I couldn't reply right away cause my mom was sick so I had to take care of her....but anyway back to the topic......"

Would you be OK with me then stating, "Hey hope your mom gets better"?

What business is it of mine, right? Well to your thoughts that would be different because it's showing concern for someones mother or loved one, correct? Yet I was also demonstrating concern for this kid but you can't really discern my tone based on text can you?

I gave my advice to this young man based on me being a father of 4 kids. He can take it or he can tell me to shut up.

Would it have been worse had I told him to forget about the chick and move onto another one cause they are all nothing but trouble?

Originally posted by WingedOne
So AshleyD Are you saying that the Jews lived longer because they knew how to wipe their butt.

No, I'm saying they lived longer because they knew to wash their hands after wiping their butt, used herbs now known to contain antibacterial properties after wiping their butt, and burying their feces after wiping their butt. Not to mention the process of wiping their butts happened outside the camp.

Maybe if medieval Europe had followed some of the Jew's post-butt-wiping procedures we wouldn't have had such a bad outbreak of the plague. They let their feces run in open sewer lines in the city streets (which still exist today although they are no longer in use) unlike the Jews who defecated outside the camp and had no regular bathing routine (especially with antibacterial herbs).

Some of their medical foreknowledge is amazing (there is much more than just this one example) and is diametrically opposed to the medical knowledge and practices of even leading ancient societies like the Egyptians and Babylonians. The Jews kicked butt in regards to wiping butt.

Have I answered your crudely-posed question to your liking?

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Accidental Double Post.

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Well yeah you have. Do you think you could maybe put a image of that up. I thought that jews only did that when God told them to. You know, hell they couldn't do anything without checking with the Big Guy first, right!

Originally posted by SilverSmith
It becomes everyones business when posted in a PUBLIC forum. He posted it and I replied to it.

I gave my advice to this young man based on me being a father of 4 kids. He can take it or he can tell me to shut up.

I understand where you are coming from and that your heart is in the right place. I even agree with what you said (about kids having boyfriends and girlfriends) but it wasn't an issue opened to debate- just a bit of personal information he shared.

I was defensive for him because it has happened an innumerable amount of times to me as well. I'll make a post 95% on topic to the thread and 5% personal experience (which is almost always about my Christian faith). The critics then pick apart that 5% which is my life because they can't refute my 95% argument. I think it's attacking the person and not the argument. Just my opinion.

Can't we just be people sharing something about our life without it being an issue of debate? I like everyone on ATS- every single person I've encountered- but the atmosphere is very uptight here.

Originally posted by WingedOne
Do you think you could maybe put a image of that up.

Sure! And then I'll immediately be banned for posting images of inappropriate material. Are you trying to get me banned?

Absolutely not. Just makin sure that them Jew fellas get the right info out on em. If your not supposed to do anything without askin the Big Guy first what would happen to them there Jews if they wiped without askin?

At least you didn't use the word God that last time. Divine Creator, huh, no that isn't it either. Keep trying little one you'll get it sooner or later. My guess is much later. I do believe you have fried some brain cells somewhere along the way. It makes for good reading for the Overlord.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by WingedOne
So AshleyD Are you saying that the Jews lived longer because they knew how to wipe their butt.

No, I'm saying they lived longer because they knew to wash their hands after wiping their butt, used herbs now known to contain antibacterial properties after wiping their butt, and burying their feces after wiping their butt. Not to mention the process of wiping their butts happened outside the camp.

Is there any proof that Jews of antiquity lived 30-40 years longer than other peoples?

Maybe if medieval Europe had followed some of the Jew's post-butt-wiping procedures we wouldn't have had such a bad outbreak of the plague. They let their feces run in open sewer lines in the city streets (which still exist today although they are no longer in use) unlike the Jews who defecated outside the camp and had no regular bathing routine (especially with antibacterial herbs).

If I'm not mistaken the plague was spread/caused by infected fleas and spread by rats, and had nothing to do with sanitary habits.

Some of their medical foreknowledge is amazing (there is much more than just this one example) and is diametrically opposed to the medical knowledge and practices of even leading ancient societies like the Egyptians and Babylonians. The Jews kicked butt in regards to wiping butt.

While this is interesting, its not really on topic. It seems to me the whole creation thing was a trial by Error, Many errors, and I would expect more from a all knowing God. Perhaps we should call it "unintelligent design".

Evolution is a imperfect process, and makes more since, and the good part is you don't have to have faith that it is real.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Is there any proof that Jews of antiquity lived 30-40 years longer than other peoples?

Proof? No. Historical census-like records? Yes. They are around but it has been years since I've read about it.

If I'm not mistaken the plague was spread/caused by infected fleas and spread by rats, and had nothing to do with sanitary habits.

No, you're not mistaken (at least for one plague outbreak) but fleas are how it originally spread to the shores of Europe- not how it kept spreading. But I was specifically talking about the second plague anyways in the 17th century (the first outbreak in the 12th century was the one theorized to be started by fleas). The 17th century plague is when they had fecal matter flowing in the city streets through open sewer lines. But even if you want to refer to the first one, it was started an originally carried by fleas (in a supported theory at least)- not continued.

While this is interesting, its not really on topic.

I agree. I never thought that one statement would have been debated. Didn't mean to derail your topic.

Evolution is a imperfect process, and makes more since, and the good part is you don't have to have faith that it is real.

I kind of disagree but am afraid to get off on this bunny trail as it is always the same arguments. But parts of evolution do indeed take faith. Lots and lots of speculation and gap-filling is included in the theory.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

It is perfect in that, if it was any different we might not exist.

Originally posted by SilverSmith

Originally posted by Austin9599945

With all due respect..and I mean ALL due respect....but if i die tommrow...and god sends me to hell for trying to educate myself about the beautiful world he created...then he's not really the type of god I want to be worshiping anyways.

First off, you're way to young for girlfriends. Ask yourself what good has it brought you? Do you understand better, more of a man or has it brought inner peace to you?

Get yourself together first because you never meet anyone so that you can become "complete". That's a bunch of worldly crap. You need to be complete first then you meet some "woman", not a "girl", that COMPLIMENTS you! If you need someone to "complete you" then you're nothing but half a person.

Secondly, who told you that God "sends you to hell"? If you hold to "free will" then what if you're sending yourself there? What if you hate God and want nothing to do with God yet He makes you go to heaven to be with Him. Wouldn't that then be hell for you?

Thirdly, describe your type of god you would like to worship? I bet you can't name one attribute of Gods?

Lastly, where does God ever state, "I will bless those who educate themselves about the world" ?

First off..I never said I needed anyone.
I was simply desrcribing the ignorant girl(women)I dated.

second..Im not too young to date...i AM too young to love.I have never claimed to love a girlfriend...I for one understand loves complexity and realize its beyond my maturity level.
thanks.

third...old sermons in the puritan WOULD tell people God will punish you(they would say He sends you to hell)
I love how the religion has changed and all of a sudden its HUMANS that send THEMSELVES to hell.

fourth....I never claimed to know the complexity of God.I dont know if he even exists.So you're question "what type of god would you want to worship?"
are you serious?do you REALLY want me to answer that?I dont think it was a serious question....so I will discard it.

Im simply saying I dont feel your God(im assuming you're a christian no?)
deserves my prayer.

I find him unjust,sorry.Infinite punishment for finite sins.
He judges beliefs over actions.
If you believe = you get heaven.
you dont believe in me but save lives,cure cancer,help people etc = you burn for eternity.

I think your God has a slight ego issue...

and god never said "I will bless those who educate themselves"you're right about that.
but
the bible overall translates to.."Love me or burn forever"


that is the message of Christianity.
and ive heard every religious persons argument...some more educated then others.
"Oh...well...its not a guilt trip...I never said His ways we're gonna be easy"
"whats a lifetime of frustration on earth if you're gonna spend forever in paradise?"
I think your argument would be a rather educated one so I am willing to listen

this answer is simple read the first few chapters of genesis. It explains the whole situation we're in.


Keeper