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X Rudder Submarines questions

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posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 04:37 AM
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1) Recently, I heared Japanese launched a new X rudder submarine? who has detailed informations and photos to share?
2) Are there any other X rudder submarines has been existed??




posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 04:46 AM
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Originally posted by emile
Are there any other X rudder submarines has been existed??


Yes the US experimented with 'x' arrayed control surfaces on the USS Albacore in the 50's. The design was abandoned



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 05:10 AM
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Could you give the name of them?



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 10:04 AM
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give you the name of what?



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by emile
Could you give the name of them?


He already said it, the "USS Albacore". U212A also has X-planes.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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Emile,

You want to check out the site under the name USS Albacore. This site notes the history of the boat along with its design changes over the years. IF you notice carefully the launch picture it was delivered with the standard type + dive planes and rudder. Theh X planes appear to have been a design change and experiment along the life of the boat.

Here is the link.

www.ussalbacore.org...

use the features on the link and follow the instructions. The virtual tour is intresting. Enjoy.

The X design has not gone out of style..nor has the + design.

Orangetom

[edit on 14-1-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 02:15 AM
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Ops, I am sorry very much, what I originally think something X rudder should be made in North Europe country not the Albacore.

Who can summurise all of X rudder submarine in one list?



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 03:49 AM
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Here is a further note on the X planes configuration.

What I was told by a ex submariner is that the X planes configuration works mostly on boats with a smaller size or dead weight tonnage.

The Albacore was a small boat. The U212 is a small boat too.

Once a boat reachs a certain size the X planes configuration does not give the best performance. Hence you see boats using the + rudder and stern planes format.

When told this ...I had to think about it for a minute but I realized this guy was correct about the size. Most of the boats you see with X planes set ups are smaller boats.

Thought you folks would like to know this tidbit and line of thinking.

Orangetom



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 06:52 AM
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Originally posted by emile


Who can summurise all of X rudder submarine in one list?


I'm sorry, most modern submarine information ESPECIALLY dealing with screw design and control surface design is classified. The information on the Albacore is only public information due to it's age.


Control surfaces and screw design is sensitive because it is the main factor contributing to cavitation.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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This what your looking for emile,



Most modern military submarines have a hull form that at least approximates an axisymmetric body of revolution. Most of these have four control surfaces at the stern for steering the vessel, that is, for making it turn left or right--the rudder--or rise or dive--diving plane--or a combination of both. In turn, in most modern submarines these control surfaces are in cruciform. That is, the rise-dive surfaces are generally in the same plane as the horizontal plane through the centerline of the vessel, and the turning surfaces are in the same plane as the vertical plane through the centerline. Thus, the control surfaces are generally in the form of a Greek cross.

In most cases the two rudder planes are yoked together, and the two diving planes are yoked together. Because of this yoking, each pair of control surfaces is operated by a single actuating rod. Thus, one rod turns the ship, and the other rod causes the ship to rise or dive.

It is known that arranging the control surfaces or planes of a submarine in an X configuration has certain advantages. In this form, the control surfaces are in the form of an X. Unlike cruciform designs, X-stern designs utilize all four planes as part of any maneuver. Therefore, an X-stern design enjoys more maneuvering force per unit of control surface area than cruciform designs. X-stern ships can be designed with smaller control surfaces while maintaining maneuvering envelopes comparable to cruciform ships with larger control surfaces. Smaller control surfaces obviously have less drag, but may also be quieter--a very important factor today for a submarine.

The submarine USS ALBACORE had an X-stern configuration where the opposite control surfaces were yoked together. Australian submarines of the recent COLLINS class have X-stern configurations, but the control surfaces are not yoked together and each of the four surfaces has its own actuator. These are two examples of the current known methods of actuating X-sterns. In both cases, the control system for the operating rods is more complicated than that aboard a cruciform ship. In a cruciform ship, if the helmsman wants to turn the ship, the control system commands the rudder operating rod to extend or retract. If a change in depth is required, the control system commands the diving operating rod to extend or retract. In both X-stern designs, the control system commands every operating rod to move in one direction or the other, for any maneuver. Controlling these coordinated operating rod movements is a complex task that can be accomplished with a computer. However, manual coordination of the operating rods, in the event of a computer casualty, is difficult.
link
google books
the proven X-rudder configuration was chosen for a high manoeuvrability. The rudders are laid out in a way that they press a preswirl on the propeller inflow which homogenizes the wake flow field and increases the propeller efficiency on the one hand and reduces the noise signature on the other hand. The propelling power is provided by a Skewback propeller whose extremely low rotation speed prevents cavity and which generates thrust silently even at high speeds.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Jezza
 




Australian submarines of the recent COLLINS class have X-stern configurations, but the control surfaces are not yoked together and each of the four surfaces has its own actuator.


Wow!!! Jezza,

That is an expensive set up...both to keep track of ..install and maintain..and to manually overide. Complex. I never knew that about the Collins class boats.

Setting it up under construction... the set up of the operating shafts and placement of the actuators is very critical. Once set up...the Zero position matching between the four positions would also be very critical. Having all four accurately return to zero..mechanically and accurately...is a very critical adjustment.

Also critical is how accurately the movement is at any position along the travel of the shafts. Otherwise the four shafts are mismatched.

Four shafts means four stuffing boxes ...all needing to be critically packed with special seals. That has to be a very tight space back there by the aft elliptical bulkheads. I,d like to see that set up. Never seenn one myself. IT would be very intresting. Alot of hydraulic piping back there in a tight space along with the propellor shaft and other necessary operating equipment.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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Isn't one of the advantages of the X-pattern control surfaces also better clearance for operating in shallow water?

IIRC that is the reason the Germans chose it for U212.



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 02:57 AM
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So, only Albacore and U212 fitted with X rudder? What about the recent Japanese submarine? Do you have photos show it?
Do u have more detailed informations about this




[edit on 16-1-2008 by emile]



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 04:46 AM
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reply to post by xmotex
 


yes thats correct and high speed turns

alot of modern subs have X-rudder configuration



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 05:09 AM
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I thought the Australian subs..Collins class use the X configuration.



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 05:44 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I thought the Australian subs..Collins class use the X configuration.



www.ausairpower.net...

yup it is



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 05:51 AM
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The Walrus class submarines are unusual in that instead of a cross-shaped assembly of stern diving planes and rudders, they mount four combined rudders and diving planes in an "X" configuration. This tail configuration was first tested in 1960 on the United States Navy's USS Albacore (AGSS-569), but has since been used only by the Walrus class, all Swedish Navy submarines since the Sjöormen class, the Royal Australian Navy's Collins class and the German type 212A.

but i think with the change to litorell type of operations i think it
will be utilised more



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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I dont think the X configuration will be utilized except by Navys who dont intend their boats to go above a certain size. Also as stated these Navys operate mostly in a littorial strategy.

If they must cross thousands of miles of ocean to regularly get to thier area of operations this will eventually require larger boats with higher transit speeds...or more of these smaller boats to maintain sufficient numbers of boats on station. Either way it can get expensive.

Because of thier methods/areas of operations I dont believe the US Navy will go to this X planes configuration any time soon.

Orangetom



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 06:36 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I thought the Australian subs..Collins class use the X configuration.
www.ausairpower.net...
yup it is


yup what?
please take look the letters on rear white board!!

When Australian wrote these word like drawing a picture???

[edit on 17-1-2008 by emile]



posted on Jan, 17 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by emile
 


what? your babbling again

www.navy.gov.au...

www.nti.org...

www.dsto.defence.gov.au...

ponorka.navajo.cz...

4 more pictures of the Collins class AUS sub with X rear planes



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