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Organs to be taken without consent

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posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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If I say they can have them, they can cut whatever they want out of me when I kick off. But if I haven't given permission, then I'm just gonna leap up off of that gurney and smack-a-doc with a bed pan.

Plus, doesn't the body technically belong to the family? So they are STEALING private property. If the family wants the wallet and watch back, I'm pretty sure they'd like the body in one piece, too. That is, unless they say otherwise.

If the UK has such a problem with getting people to enroll, they need to work on getting more people to enroll. Not steal people's guts as soon as they can't fight back.




posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by Basilis
 


You're never too young to die. Pile of bricks fall from a construction site
or
Hit by a car. Hell, I was hit by a car while riding my bike home from work one night and nearly killed. The next week I took out a life insurance policy. It's better to be aware of one's own mortality and accept it than to ignore it until the unfortunate happens.


Originally posted by Mindless
But your point is moot till abortion and prostitution is legal . Sorry
This proves you have no right to your body at all alive why when you die would you all the sudden get these rights?


I thought abortion and prostitution were legal.


Once again, just to avoid derailing the thread, My body, my rights. You take that away and you're admitting that they own you.

I'd hate to die in the UK or Spain after losing my wallet though. I'm AB neg so they'd be all up on my sh!t to start harvesting. I don't mind donating, but taking it without consent is BS. To me, it's like if someone were asking for money to feed their starving children. I'm glad to give, but if you jack me for my wallet I'd bust their ass, no matter what the worthy cause.

Too bad I'd be dead in this case. I suppose that's the most aggravating part. It'd be a violation of the worst kind.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 07:29 PM
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First of all the only people that will get the transplanted organs will be the elite, you can count on that.

We have to face the fact that in the U.K. you the property of the state and if you die then they get your organs unless told otherwise and if they can't find next of kin then they get organs or say they can't contact your next of kin for several days then congratulations your organs are now headed to dubai to help a businessman or to Canada or Jordan.

U.K. citizens are in such denial they love socialization and tyranny they will love this too. So to serenade the loss of your body as your property why not an uplifting message from Gordon Brown and count the times he says new world order. Hey it can be a new drinking game at the pub.

New World Order Speech G.Brown



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:13 PM
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This thread got a lot of pages quick. Sorry if I am about to repeat something that has already been said. I heard this story a while ago, so I'm sorry I don't remember all of the details.

There was a woman who needed an organ, and waited for some time getting sicker and sicker.

Her brother was suddenly killed in a car accident, and had a compatible organ. The family rushed to approve that his organs donated with the understanding that the sister would recieve the organ she needed to save her life. You can imagine the whirlwind of emotion for the family and the sister on a day like that.

Well, long story short, she never got the organ. Not because it wasn't compatible, but because she was too far down on the wainting list. Her brother's organ was given to someone higher up on the list.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:30 PM
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Donating organs after death is a simple but amazing thing, not only does it preserve another's life, it preserves the happiness of the receivers family and friends. On a bigger picture it connects human beings regardless of religion, race or background. You give someone the chance to live, the same way you got that chance. If you have done nothing in your life that has contributed (highly unlikely but still) this small deed is giving back to the world, helping to continue the human race. An action to be admired and influencial towards future generations


I'm al for the organ donations, I do not need them when i am gone, but others do. However it's a person's body and it's their choice. They have every right to keep their organs, and with good reason I'm sure, religious, fear of what's waiting, respect for their own families...there's countless of reasons (hell i wanna donate everythin cept my eyeballs, and thats just cause it's freaky lol) But if this organ donating system goes ahead, the people who feel this strongly about keeping their organs surely would make the effort to opt out?

It's easy to see the sensibility in Brown's system, it ensures people who would be too busy to sign up are already on the list, and its quite safe to presume people with strong beliefs will make the effort. However it can be said for both sides of the party, cause if people feel strongly enough about givin them away, they too should make the effort. But, I'm just stating the obvious here.

I don't neccessarily like the idea of trusting the government either, if only they would encourage people more to make a decision now, or require people make the decision within a deadline this year, or something like that.
When people say it's just for profit, I find this highly unlikely as the more organs available to meet to demand the less it's gonna cost. Which is obviously a good thing.

The fact that the heart is designed to act on its own outside the brain (for a certain length of time when kept in a nutrient full liquid rich in oxygen of course
) is sorta kinda cool in this situation...maybe this not only has the purpose of keeping YOU alive when you're brain-dead....its just a thought. If it has this function to keep others alive, then why not use it?

It should be a choice, of course. Everyone has the right over their bodies, the same as everyone has the right to LIVE. Donating organ's you don't need enforces that right for someone else, someone who didn't choose to be in a car crash, or didn't choose to be born with failing kidneys.
I just hope people make the effort to opt out or in, if they do that atleats people wil get what they want, whatever it is, and other's won't be left in the dark just cause of laziness.

Edited cause of spelling


[edit on 14-1-2008 by Ride The Spiral]



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:32 PM
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And ya know that i love ATS but this just got personal im trained in many areas.

I know my # persoanel and otherwise.

But # that.

# this thread and # that it hit a nerve forgive me i love you all.

Best admin on the internet should know what im thinking if not fine.

I beg you..... # GORDEN BROWN OFF

That took a lot and you know it.

Regards
Lee



[edit on 14-1-2008 by h3akalee]



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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This reminds of the whole damn abortion issue!!
It seems the government wants control over all of our lives.
Way to much control!!!!!

I mean think about it they are gonna make money of you when your dead,
i am not going to get a red cent from it ,
they gonna get rich from you!! no way man!! not me!!!!!!
they take to much as it is rite now!!!!

Waiver please!!!!!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 01:14 AM
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I mean i think i read somewhere they will make any where between
250,000$ to 1,000,000 u.s.a. dollars off the organs they collect!!
To hell with that!!!

Somebodies making a boat load of cash and its not me!!!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
I wonder how tempting it will be to cause the premature death of the poor, or homeless, or disabled....just to have the organs for those other, more important citizens in society.
How many family members will be pressured to pull the plug before they are ready? If my heart is beating, I am alive....so, no, society doesn't have the right to my organs just yet!! Unless, of course, I chose beforehand to give up my pathetic existance for someone else.

[edit on 14-1-2008 by dawnstar]

I was waiting for this argument! It is ridiculous to suggest this. Anyone willing to participate in such a "scheme" would be willing to participate in the abudction, murder and organ removal NOW!!!!!!!!!! JESUS!!!!!!!

Secondly, an opt out system would ensure that there were enough organs potentially available and therefore there would be no need for any "fast tracking" irrespective of its nature.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by scaredlady
[A person in my town had a crack coc aine induced stroke. The ambulance took him to some garage. and waited for him to die.


That was murder in that case. If they did that as a deliberate action.

Also, organs cannot be donated once the body has dies as I have explained before (Except maybe the corneas)



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
I wonder how tempting it will be to cause the premature death of the poor, or homeless, or disabled....just to have the organs for those other, more important citizens in society.


Well, sadly we have come to this already here in the states. This was not for profits etc, but rather to speed up the process as the doc had something else to do.

Transplant Surgeon Charged with Murder



Violating the hospital's protocol and state law, Roozrokh took over caring for Navarro before he was declared dead and ordered a nurse to give Navarro abnormally high doses of morphine and Ativan to hasten death, according to an investigation by the U.S. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. Prosecutors also allege that Roozrokh injected Betadine, a topical antiseptic, into Navarro's stomach. The attempted organ donation occurred on a Friday night. Navarro died the next day at 8 a.m. Operating room nursing staff alerted hospital administrators the following Monday about the incident. The hospital then notified police and state and federal health officials.



On a side note I had the misfortune to have to deal with the guy as a charge nurse in the PICU one night when he was in school still. He hands down was one of the biggest horses rear I have ever seen.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by malcr

I was waiting for this argument! It is ridiculous to suggest this. Anyone willing to participate in such a "scheme" would be willing to participate in the abudction, murder and organ removal NOW!!!!!!!!!! JESUS!!!!!!!

Secondly, an opt out system would ensure that there were enough organs potentially available and therefore there would be no need for any "fast tracking" irrespective of its nature.


ummm....ya.....people being abducted and murdered for thier organs would kind of be noticed a little more, don't ya think? I mean, people would notice the people missing, the police would start searching for them..might even find them!! Heck they might even catch the perpetrators!!
But, then, if the guy is brought into the er half dead, and the family is out in the waiting room, well, it might not be that obvious to anyone that the doctor, instead of saving the life, pushed it over the edge to the other side because the big ceo of that aeorospace company needed a liver that fits his description.
and yes, there might be plenty of organs with this system, but still, it might be possible that none of them could be compatible for this ceo, isn't it?

Personally, I don't care what happens to my body once I am gone, just as long as they don't keep is running after it's obviously dead! But, it seems that many have developed a kind of attachment to it and do care, and in most cases the loved ones of the departed do care. Some here seem to have devoloped a kind of judgemental attitude about those that would refuse, without trying to understand their logic for doing so. If you have ever lost someone close to you, you know that it can really throw you for a loop. Having someone rush you into accepting the death so they can swipe the parts just isn't gonna help that emotional turmoil any. And, once death has come, the primary concern should be for those that have felt the loss the worst not for the alchoholic that is wanting a replacement for the liver he's destroyed! (see, I can do it too, bring in imaginary people to either exalt or debase the need for such legislation as this.)

There's one story posted on this board that proves that at least one doctor has gone over the line in order to aquire an organ...I've ran into one also, although I admit, it might be the same one. But, alas, it has happened in the states, and I have my doubts that you brits are any more ethical and moral than us. if it happens here, it more than likely happens there also, people are people, don't matter where they are at.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 05:19 AM
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I am an organ donor...

If I die and they can use something, then fantastic.

What good is it to me when I am dead?

Although, after reading this, I had visions of Monty Python's "Meaning of Life" haunting me... now that would be really bad!!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by Thurisaz
 




MR. BROWN:
Yes?
MAN:
Hello. Uhh, can we have your liver?
MR. BROWN:
My what?
MAN:
Your liver. It's a large, ehh, glandular organ in your abdomen.
ERIC:
[sniff]
MAN:
You know, it's, uh,-- it's reddish-brown. It's sort of, uhh,--
MR. BROWN:
Yeah,-- y-- y-- yeah, I know what it is, but... I'm using it, eh.
ERIC:
Come on, sir.
MR. BROWN:
Hey! Hey! Stop!
ERIC:
Don't muck us about.
MR. BROWN:
Stop! Hey! Hey! Stop it. Hey!
MAN:
Hallo.
MR. BROWN:
Ge-- get off.
MAN:
What's this, then? Mmh.
MR. BROWN:
A liver donor's card.
MAN:
Need we say more?
ERIC:
No!
MR. BROWN:
Listen! I can't give it to you now. It says, 'in the event of death'. Uh. Oh! Ah. Ah. Eh.
MAN:
No one who has ever had their liver taken out by us has survived.
MR. BROWN:
Agh.
ERIC:
Just lie there, sir. It won't take a minute.


Combine that with a little


CART MASTER:
Ninepence.
DEAD PERSON:
I'm not dead!
CART MASTER:
What?
CUSTOMER:
Nothing. Here's your ninepence.
DEAD PERSON:
I'm not dead!
CART MASTER:
'Ere. He says he's not dead!
CUSTOMER:
Yes, he is.
DEAD PERSON:
I'm not!
CART MASTER:
He isn't?
CUSTOMER:
Well, he will be soon. He's very ill.
DEAD PERSON:
I'm getting better!
CUSTOMER:
No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment.
CART MASTER:
Oh, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
DEAD PERSON:
I don't want to go on the cart!
CUSTOMER:
Oh, don't be such a baby.
CART MASTER:
I can't take him.
DEAD PERSON:
I feel fine!
CUSTOMER:
Well, do us a favour.
CART MASTER:
I can't.
CUSTOMER:
Well, can you hang around a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
CART MASTER:
No, I've got to go to the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
CUSTOMER:
Well, when's your next round?
CART MASTER:
Thursday.
DEAD PERSON:
I think I'll go for a walk.
CUSTOMER:
You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do?
DEAD PERSON: [singing]
I feel happy. I feel happy.
[whop]
CUSTOMER:
Ah, thanks very much.
CART MASTER:
Not at all. See you on Thursday.


And what have you got?


I never thought that Monty Python would be so right on the money.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 06:00 AM
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Originally posted by TrojanNutzConspiracy
I mean i think i read somewhere they will make any where between
250,000$ to 1,000,000 u.s.a. dollars off the organs they collect!!
To hell with that!!!

Somebodies making a boat load of cash and its not me!!!



You 'read somewhere' ? where?
In the UK the NHS is free, it is illegal to sell or trade in organs. Any donated organs will go to the first matching person on the list irrespective of financial or any other status.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 06:02 AM
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reply to post by Rasobasi420
 


OH Fantastic!!! Just really laughed...

thanks for finding the dialogue!!




posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 08:13 AM
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Originally posted by realyweely

Originally posted by TrojanNutzConspiracy
I mean i think i read somewhere they will make any where between
250,000$ to 1,000,000 u.s.a. dollars off the organs they collect!!
To hell with that!!!

Somebodies making a boat load of cash and its not me!!!



You 'read somewhere' ? where?
In the UK the NHS is free, it is illegal to sell or trade in organs. Any donated organs will go to the first matching person on the list irrespective of financial or any other status.


There are 1000's of Private Patients in PRIVATE Hospitals in the UK - have you heard of BUPA? They will be receiving your "donated" organs, because there will be a surplus supply once this new scam comes in to play.


Organ and tissue donation - your questions answered

Source from www.uktransplant.org.uk



Q Could my donated organs and tissue go to a private patient?

A Possibly. Patients entitled to treatment on the NHS are always given priority for donated organs. These include UK citizens, members of Her Majesty's forces serving abroad and patients covered by a reciprocal health agreement with the UK.

Other patients would only be offered an organ if there were no suitable patients entitled to treatment under the NHS. Every effort is made to ensure that a donated organ does not go to waste if there is someone who can benefit.

Donated tissue is made available to any hospital in the UK where there is a patient in need




posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by sean_uk
 


So you've essentially just proven that first refusal goes to the NHS, then on to Private patient's if no suitable donor can be found.

So, essentially, the assertion this is for profit and money grabbing is utter bollocks.



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Private hospitals are not "Non-Profit" organizations. Obviously, they are going to "profit" when the new scam... I mean scheme comes in. There have been organ scandals in the past, and they still happen all over the world... but this is the worst.

This has been planned for a few years now, by the Nanny State, and has been carefully constructed so as not to appear too radical & controversial; careful not to upset certain religions & beliefs; careful, because they need "LIVE" donors.
People who are in comas and on life-support systems will have there organs removed while they are still alive...

So, all you "brain doners"
stop thinking that you are better than those who prefer to keep them selves to themselves (literally!); stop thinking that you are morally superior, and that those who do not wish to donate are "selfish". The typical statement from doners is: "well, what good's yer liver to ye, when yer dead?". How many times have I heard statements like this, almost word for word, which only proves that they've heard somebody else say it, and they're just copying cos they're braindead sheep!

------------------------------------

FRANKENSTEIN!!!

Woah! it's not that long ago since this Horrific tale used to send shivers down peoples necks. How's the story go again? oh, yeah... I remember now.

---------------------------------------

What do Grave Robbers, Cannibals, Nazis & Serial Killers have in common?

They all take things from the dead. (presumed consent?)

What's the difference in taking somebody's liver & kidney (transplant), and eating somebody's liver & kidney?

-----------------------------------------

I've nothing against people who choose to donate their organs, just the self-righteous, brainwashed hypocrites who do not understand FREEDOM!



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by sean_uk
Private hospitals are not "Non-Profit" organizations. Obviously, they are going to "profit" when the new scam... I mean scheme comes in. There have been organ scandals in the past, and they still happen all over the world... but this is the worst.


The organ scandals, such as Alder Hey, had nothing to do with organ transplants or even live people. It was concerning the removal, without consent, of organs from still born babies. People were punished and new laws brought in to prevent it.


Originally posted by sean_uk
This has been planned for a few years now, by the Nanny State, and has been carefully constructed so as not to appear too radical & controversial; careful not to upset certain religions & beliefs; careful, because they need "LIVE" donors.
People who are in comas and on life-support systems will have there organs removed while they are still alive...


What utter garbage. Hardly worth even responding too, really.


Originally posted by sean_uk
So, all you "brain doners"
stop thinking that you are better than those who prefer to keep them selves to themselves (literally!); stop thinking that you are morally superior, and that those who do not wish to donate are "selfish".


It is being selfish. Denying something that, whilst of BUGGER all use to you, could save someones life. That someone could be you or a loved one. I assume that you would refuse a life saving transplant, judging by your convictions stated here?


Originally posted by sean_uk
The typical statement from doners is: "well, what good's yer liver to ye, when yer dead?". How many times have I heard statements like this, almost word for word, which only proves that they've heard somebody else say it, and they're just copying cos they're braindead sheep!


Or maybe, it is because it is a valid point which no one on this thread has been able to side step. What on earth are people getting so shirty about this when your DEAD?


Originally posted by sean_uk
FRANKENSTEIN!!!


So, your saying people with transplants are mad scientists?


Originally posted by sean_uk
What do Grave Robbers, Cannibals, Nazis & Serial Killers have in common?

They all take things from the dead. (presumed consent?)

What's the difference in taking somebody's liver & kidney (transplant), and eating somebody's liver & kidney?


So your saying people with transplants are also cannibals? I take extreme offence to that and I mean, extreme. I'd like to say things to you, but I'd probably be banned.


Originally posted by sean_uk
I've nothing against people who choose to donate their organs, just the self-righteous, brainwashed hypocrites who do not understand FREEDOM!


What about the people who are having their right to treatment and a full life denied because people want to take their organs to the grave?



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