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Guantanamo Detainees Are Not Human Beings

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posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by laiguana
 




Oh wait, you're serious?!?

Your assuming someone is guilty because they were arrested?!?

Wow, I think I've found one of the most ignorant posts I've EVER read here on ATS. Yep, even worse than reptilians.

Here is someone who does NOT believe in innocent until proven guilty. Someone who cannot handle the responsibility of the freedom granted to us through the Constitution. And flat out, someone who is apparently blind to what is going on.

Please, deny ignorance...




posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by aaaaa
 


Oh give me a break. You feel that what is going on is ok because their customs are different than yours?

You're just like people who force their moralities on others because they feel it's better. Like a Blue law. Many Muslims in the Middle East feel that our way of life is awful! How would it go over if we switched places with them I wonder?...Them allowing us to be tortured because we are not Islamic, and have different customs.

There is a whole world out there with different views on just about everything, so feeling hatred towards anyone who does not share in the same beliefs as you is, well...primitive.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 




My post was not directed at you. Someone else made a comment about these Poor People and I overreacted. Sorry.


I welcome fruitful debate.

As far as "these poor people," we really have no idea what to believe. Without even any charges, much less a trial, how can we presume that they are guilty of anything? They might very well just be farmers who had no idea what was even happening. If someone shoots at you, you're gonna shoot back. Let's not forget that we were in their country.



I have no problem with them having a trial where they are and in a Military Court. I don't want them receiving the O.J. Treatment in normal court while they get free Legal Help from Media Hounds. They will get a reasonable trial. They have been so fair up till now that some have been released and are shooting at American Soldiers as we speak.


I agree that a circus OJ trial is not the right idea here. But even there, here we are still presuming that OJ is guilty after he was acquitted. What does that really say about us. Either we are supporting a system that let a murderer go free, or we are supporting lynch-mob justice wanting to hang him regardless of the outcome of the trial. Who said this...? "We're gonna have a fair and just trial. Then we're gonna hang 'im."

There is nothing fair about being incarcerated without charges, much less doing time for year after year when you have not been shown to be guilty of anything. We have no idea why these people are in Gitmo. How would you like it if the feds came in to your house and took you away from your family without any explanation other than defining you as a non-person?

You have no evidence whatsoever that anyone who has been released is a threat to US forces, or has shot at anyone. That is pure propoganda. Furthermore, if you were put in prison for something you didn't do, it might help you to make up your mind as to which side you thought was right and which side you were going to fight for. I know I'd be looking for some payback.



I'm sure most of us here have Muslim Friends as do I. I don't equate the two as the same thing. Fanatics are fanatics. These people were captured while fighting along side other fanatics. Even though the laws are odd and they don't have the courage to wear a uniform; they are POW's. They should be treated as such. Where are all the posts condemning them and their actions?


I agree that Islam and fanaticism are not compatible.

We do not know if the captured are fanatics. They may have been forced to fight under threat of death by the Taliban. They may have fought simply because they were shot at first. They may not have been fighting at all. They have not been charged with fighting Americans, so for all we know they were taken from their homes while they were sleeping. That's the whole point. We don't know. And that is the danger. If they shot at US troops, fine, charge them and put them on trial.

The uniform issue doesn't really mean much either. Again, keep in mind that we invaded their lands. They may not be soldiers at all, and therefore would not have uniforms. Then think about what their uniform would actually be anyway. Should they be wearing a western style uniform just in a different color than US troops? What would your uniform be if you were a mid-western farmer who suddenly spotted middle-eastern troops rolling across your land and blowing up your barns? Blue jeans and a flannel shirt would probably be your uniform, maybe a green John Deere hat to top it off.

There are no post condeming them because we have no idea what they have done, if anything at all. That is precisely why there is supposed to be due-process.

As far as your whole Muslim vs. monsters argument, we don't really know much about that anymore either. I'm not sure if OBL himself was really guilty of anything looking at the mounting evidence that we are being blatantly being lied to about 9/11.









[edit on 1/13/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:35 PM
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Well bigbert81, this is how fascism gets rooted into a country. The people let it in because they think it's for the best.

The Nazis came against next to no resistance from the German people, because they had told them that these people they were attacking were "terrorists" and simply "not German".

History repeats itself. Unfortunately the people defending torture and detainment without trial have clearly never studied their history books.

Best thing for you to do is to hunker down and come up with a plan as to what you can do to keep yourself safe. Above all, do NOT take sides with the Fascist scum, they will get what is coming to them, you don't want to be tried along with them.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:39 PM
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we have leaders above the law
we have criminals who wont be convicted by law
yet we the citizents of the world are to live by the law

something is very wrong with that picture



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by laiguana
 




I doubt they would be there without sufficient evidence to begin with. What would be the purpose of holding random people there? That makes no sense. These -detainees- are there for a reason and if our government can extract crucial information that would aid in our efforts to fight terrorism then I see no problem in that.


If there is evidence, it has to be brought forward. Without evidence, then well,there is no evidence. What you doubt is irrelevant. I doubt that these detainees are terrorists.

If these detainess had any useful intelligence information, it would have been extracted long ago, and would be useless at this point anyway.

The purpose of holding those people there is to instill fear, and to measure how much the American people are willing to tolerate. Like poking a pin into the foot of someone who has suffered severe barin damage. If they can suspend human rights on these people today, it will be Americans tomorrow.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by johnsky
 


Yes, good point.


'Let's torture them because they're bad', and 'I'm sure they're holding them for a reason, I mean c'mon, it's the gov't! They surely wouldn't do anything like that!' Hmmm, that DOES sound awfully scary hearing people say because that DOES allow the gov't to squeeze torture in as a regular treatment because they now have people backing them up.

Disgusting to say the LEAST.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by aaaaa
 




Let's stop the torture of 3 square meals a day, Qu'ran and Imam access and show the inmates the 72 virgins. Those who would extend the constitutional protections afforded citizens of the U.S. to those foriegn combatants who would destroy that system in favor of maintaining a system where women are kept illiterate and covered, and judgements of wrong doing are met with chopping off of hands and other body parts have no place in the rational world. America-hating is an irrational disease that consumes people to the point of suicide, sad to see people of that persuasion posting here.


The terrorist have won. They have sucessfully undermined and destroyed the very values on which America is based. They have exposed our duplicity.

I hate what is being done in the name of the "War on Terror" because I love America.



[edit on 1/13/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 09:56 PM
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reply to post by laiguana
 




The -detainees- are there because they have been connected to terrorist activity and have been determined to hold information that is imperative in our efforts against terrorism.


That's what they would have us believe. But there is no way for any of us to know that. I bet they gave a similar line to the Germans about all the Jews in the death camps.



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 10:15 PM
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For those who support Gitmo, I believe you will find these word especially suuportive of your position.



What good fortune for governments that the people do not think.




The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it.




The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.





All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.




Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice.




I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.




Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.




If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.




The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.




The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one




The day of individual happiness has passed.


-All quotes originally stated by Adolf Hitler




posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by bigbert81

Guantanamo Detainees Are Not Human Beings


presscue.com

On the sixth anniversary of the imprisonment of detainees at the Guantánamo Bay Naval Base, a United States judge threw out lawsuit brought by four former British detainees against Donald Rumsfeld and senior military officers for ordering torture and religious abuse, ruling that th the detainees are not "Persons" under U.S. Law, which according to another judge, means that they are less than "human beings".
(visit the link for the full news article)



Dred Scott case again, 150 years later. Court has no jurisdiction because they are not human, (citizens in this case), and yet it can determine their rights were not violated. ---PC

Reply anyone?

[edit on 13-1-2008 by pc is here]



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 11:43 PM
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I think the problem is that they ARE human beings. The beings in charge don't like human beings.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by bigbert81
'Let's torture them because they're bad', and 'I'm sure they're holding them for a reason, I mean c'mon, it's the gov't! They surely wouldn't do anything like that!'

Disgusting to say the LEAST.


Seriously...

People are just downright stupid and their lack of empathy is a good indicator of that.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by laiguana
 



I doubt they would be there without sufficient evidence to begin with. What would be the purpose of holding random people there? That makes no sense. These -detainees- are there for a reason and if our government can extract crucial information that would aid in our efforts to fight terrorism then I see no problem in that.



the US offered rewards as an encouragement for the people to turn in those involved with the terrorist activities. The people, being poor and hungry, decided to take them up on the offer, and well, the whole neighborhood didn't like the jerk that lived on the corner....so even though he had no ties to terrorism they turned him in. Now they have food, they have money, they have good life in village. and the jerk is gone!!!
by the way, if the crimes the terrorists commit ranks them as non-human.....then well, wouldn't torturing people also rank us as non-human, as well as those amoung us that are trying to justify it?
I can't believe that a US court has justified this treatment, by degrading the prisoners to a sub-human status!! But of course, if this judge was sworn in in 1990, then I would venture to guess that daddy bush swore her in?? and she's just a peice of neocon property waiting to do their bidding anyways?



[edit on 14-1-2008 by dawnstar]



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:06 AM
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reply to post by dawnstar
 


I wouldn't doubt that either.

And now with people backing them, they will be allowed to usher in more violence and torture for offenders of more laws.

And people will be shouting 'it's for the best'. After all, if you get arrested, doesn't that mean you're guilty?


SR

posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by laiguana
 




I doubt they would be there without sufficient evidence to begin with. What would be the purpose of holding random people there? That makes no sense. These -detainees- are there for a reason and if our government can extract crucial information that would aid in our efforts to fight terrorism then I see no problem in that.


If there is evidence, it has to be brought forward. Without evidence, then well,there is no evidence. What you doubt is irrelevant. I doubt that these detainees are terrorists.

If these detainess had any useful intelligence information, it would have been extracted long ago, and would be useless at this point anyway.

The purpose of holding those people there is to instill fear, and to measure how much the American people are willing to tolerate. Like poking a pin into the foot of someone who has suffered severe barin damage. If they can suspend human rights on these people today, it will be Americans tomorrow.




Exacatly some of the people here would of fitted in fine in Nazi Germany. Where alot of the populace fell for the propaganda being used first it started with telling people that certain authors and intellecutals where enemys of the state and creating harmful books etc. which lead to their imprisonment and the mass book burnings.

To up the ante the Reichstag fire was then blamed on the jews as an act of terrorism and then came the full on whamy of the machine convincing the people that the jews where to blame for all the problems in that society. Hence Kristelnacht.

Look what it finally ended up as full on acts of genocide. Yet people don't seem to realise the parallels with what is slowly happening here.

I mean next the USA will be going after Iran probably as their so evil and sponsors of terror etc. and i've seen posts on this very website claiming but not in the same words 'we should get them before they get us' 'and their all terrorists anyway'.

Even though the country has universal sufferage and complied with UN nuclear regulations, The country is no more corrupt as the USA is and it hasn't started the amount of wars or battles in foreign countries in the recent 50 years as the USA has.

I mean seriously if people think like that already what makes them any different than the people who let the genocide of the jews happen back then it's a disgrace.

EDIT: I QUOTED THE WRONG POST I WAS MEANT TO REPLY TO JOHNSKY.

[edit on 14-1-2008 by SR]



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:30 AM
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how absurd. Middle easterns are people! they are people like you and me. This is racist. Look man, before 911 it was ok to like anyone in the middle east. now it has become hate for all of their race. they are good people and no one should use torture anymore. this aint the 1500's anymore.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 




You are totally wrong!!! MOST, some 80% of all detainees were captured by means of payoffs: 5000 dollars per head was given to the people in Afghanistan and Iraq to turn in their enemies, neighbors and anyone who pissed them off in the last lifetime. MOST of the detainees have NO VALUE for intel, and there is NO PROOF they were ever any danger or had committed any crime.

WHY do you think that the military tribunal down there cannot even try these people: They have no evidence they did anything wrong. It is all accusation and heresay. Less than 5% of all detainees are considered ' high value ' prisoners and if they have proof they broke the law, then try them!! But to hold humans forever with no charges and no defense, trusting the word of those who PROFITED from lying about them, is sickening.

NO decent human being with a soul could approve of illegally and inhumanely torturing and keeping people who have no chance to even state their side..no attorneys, no bail, nothing. I am sick, just sick, at what America has become.

So help me God, if I had the money I would flee this rathole of a nation in a minute..all that keeps me here is lack of funds to live in Western Europe or the Pacific rim somewhere..This nation has gone down the tubes and we can thank the lazy, weak and clueless public for allowing the media to lie to them so successfully for so long.

The vast majority of the prisoners we hold have no value other than to allow the Bush junta to further erode our liberties..please do not believe what they perps say..they lie!!



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:52 AM
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For all those that believe "most" of the people being held in Guantanamo committed some act of terrorism, please read this quote from Wikipedia.


Source
Since the beginning of the War in Afghanistan, 775 detainees have been brought to Guantanamo, approximately 420 of which have been released. As of August 9, 2007, approximately 355 detainees remain. More than a fifth are cleared for release but may have to wait months or years because U.S. officials are finding it increasingly difficult to line up places to send them, according to Bush administration officials and defense lawyers. Of the roughly 355 still incarcerated, U.S. officials said they intend to eventually put 60 to 80 on trial and free the rest.[citation needed]


Out of 775 people captured and transported to Gitmo, only 60 - 80 will end up being charged and tried. And that's with the lax standards of evidence and limited right to dispute it, that makes up a military tribunal.

That means about 90% of the detainees have been or will be released with no charges, because they either committed no crime or are not considered to be a threat.



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by forestlady
 


They also haven't been killing anybody since 2001, and have been getting 3 meals a day, and cot. Boo hoo.



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