Special Forces Convo : Originally Called 'For all those people who think the American Special Force

We should insitgate a war in between the US and The UK... hell lets get Australia, The French foreign Legion and any ther spec ops out there too... then we'll know for sure

OMFG!!! WHO REALLY CARES?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!!!??!?!?!?!!??!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!??!??!?!

Originally posted by browha

Medic - They obviously were not trained/skilled for combat in Iraq, how can you fight a war sensibily without using a single one of your elite forces?
Insite - Special Boat Service, Working to find an online thing that details their selection requirements, if I cant I'll write it up by hand
JustAnIllusion - It has something to do with the armed forces numbering several million +, the variety of culture, the sheer financial resources. Having elite forces doesnt make you powerful. New Zealand have a very strong SAS and they arent powerful.
NetStorm - Not saying SEALS arent good, but they arent AS good. I recommend you read the book I mentioned, it is extremely interesting.
QuestForSafety - Please read 'only then because he happened to have been attached to the SBS'
He shouldnt even have been there... Surely this says something about your own commander's beliefs in the abilities of your special forces

''The minimum standard to aim for is running 5 miles in 40 minutes ; the tests will most certainly include circuit training, sprints, that sort of thing so expect to get a good beasting (ha ha !). There will also be an interview for most candidates on why they want to join. If successful, you will notified, and then be kitted out by the RQM and given a date for the �Induction weekend�.

On this weekend you will be expected to run 8 miles in 60 minutes and a medical inspection will be also be carried out. Before you start the actual selection weekends you will have some drill nights at your local Squadron to work at fitness and map reading. Forget the fancy weapons and specialist training, they may come later.... one word of advice, you need to be DEDICATED - there is a hell of a lot of learning to do, but the winged dagger and service with arguably the top reserve unit on the planet could be yours : so think on that.

On recruit weekend one, you will then need to do a CFT (Combat fitness test ; 8 Miles) in full battle order, e.g. 40lbs Bergen and boots, in around 1hr 30-40 mins. The standard time for the army CFT is 2hs so you can see that good fitness is vital. Generally speaking you will be covering approximately 25k/m across the hills at speeds of 3-5km/h in the initial weekends. ''

'If you get to Test week (weekend 11 of the programme) then this could include the Fan Dance, speeds could be between 3 - 6km/hr. That�s bloody hard work !! There is no set pace for moving across the mountains because it varies according to the day, the activity, the weather, and sometimes the mood of the DS���as you can imagine its important to build up your stamina and that can only be done by beasting yourself on some hills before you get to the 1st weekend. A 1k/m swimming test comes at the end of selection so don't neglect your pool sessions.'

Read this website
and the links aout it directly erlated to the SAS
Another good link

Here too

More on selection --

Boating Week. Candidates must

pass a combat fitness test
pass the SBS swimming test, which demands 600m in 15 minutes , 50m clothed with weapon and belt kit, and 25m underwater.
Complete all canoe trials, including a 5km march with Bergen and canoe and 30km canoe paddle.


Diving Week. Complete a number of dives, generally show confidence and willingness to dive.

Those successful will go on to the joint SAS/SBS selection course

Brecon Beacons phase (3 weeks)- land navigation marches with Bergen and weapon, culminating in " long drag". The majority who drop out will do so in this phase.
Pre-jungle training(2 weeks)- working in four-man patrols.
Jungle Training, Brunei (6 weeks).
Officer week/signals training (1 week).
Support Weapons Training (1 week).
Army Combat Survival Instructor Course (2 weeks)- survival, evasion, resistance, escape; well-known for its harsh Resistance To Interrogation training; the last phase where many will be " binned".
Continuation training takes place mainly at Hereford

Demolitions (2 weeks)
Observation Post Training (1 week)
CQB Course (2 weeks)
Individual Skills Courses (8 weeks)- during this time men will undergo training as Special Forces medics or signallers, or further demolitions training. Officers attend language training and a Special Forces commander's course.
Static Line Parachute Course (3 weeks)- for those who are not qualified paratroopers.
SBS students go on to their own 8-week boating and diving course, including underwater navigation and demolition, negotiating surf zones and navigating a 55km course in the Klepper canoe, and infiltration via submarine. Following this Marines are rated as Swimmer Canoeist Class 3, and entitled to wear the badge of this specialist qualification on the left cuff of their blue and green dress uniforms, " SC" over a wreath.

This and the parachute wings worn on the upper right sleeve are their only distinctions; they wear the same green beret and capbadge as all Royal Marines, or white cap in blues. RM officers do not wear qualification badges, so they have just the parachute wings. For Marines to be promoted to Corporal they must qualify as SC2 and to Sergeant SC3. These advanced training courses emphasize operational planning and training supervision. Promotion to Sergeant also requires passing the Senior Command Course at the CTC, Lympstone.

Newly-qualified swimmer-canoeists will then join an operational troop, but of course training never ceases. They may go through further training in combat medicine, communications, counter-terrorist operations, foreign languages, SDV " driving" and many other skills. Exercises are conducted with friendly nations' units, the closest relations being with the SEALs and Dutch SBS.


Anyone still up for a good argument post a reply after you read those sites

It's obviously biased because it's written by a member of the SBS. He obviously has a great pride for his people, which is why it is biased, but not in a bad way. I not only know of SEAL training, but my father commanded a unit of them, and also came up with their training program, and trust me, what you read and see on T.V., isn't even half of what they do or are capable of. Most of that is under constant Classification of Top-Secret, or above. God forbid anyone ever has to face a combined team of both SEAL's and SBS. I believe that they are both the Elite of the Elite.


[Edited on 2-11-2004 by TheAgentNineteen]

Originally posted by silQ
OMFG!!! WHO REALLY CARES?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!!!??!?!?!?!!??!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!??!??!?!

obviously we do... you dont have to post if its a topic that isnt to your interest

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by browha
Zedd -- I concede that to you, but I dont know why Falconer said what he did then... I shall have to investigate more.

No prob.

As far as the thread itself, it would be like me saying that the SAS is not as elite since Sergeant Andy McNab was captured and tortured in Iraq. There were no Seals captured.

The Andy McNab Story:
Bravo Two Zero - Amazon

Bravo Two Zero - Move starring Sean Bean (Ronin, LoTR)

Actually a great story, although I was shocked at the brutality of the Iraqis during torture. In any case, the point I wanted to make is that a statement like Falconer's, cannot measure how "elite" a unit is. When you are at that level...you are all elite.

Hooyaa!

My friend's uncle was in the SAS and has written a book, In The Eye of the Storm by Peter (Radcliffe I think)

You may also be interested in reading The Real Bravo Two Zero by Michael Asher... in the official debrief given to Bravo Two Zero they didnt mention anything like the resistance etc mentioned in the book Bravo Two Zero.. also it seems that the alleged torture etc was a complete fabrication. Dont forget Bravo Two Zero is a commerical book and Andy McNab now writes fictional books for money.

I dont think you can take casualty-number sent ratio as a good indicator of competence... You may send a lot of troops but if they spend all their time in barracks they wont get shot at alot.. the US soldiers are being deliberately targetted dont forget.
The quote is true though, I have read it somewhere.

Originally posted by specialasianX
In election time i vote GREENS all the time... the Labour and Liberal parties get all the media attention but they suck... the Media is always biased to the west and also always bias towards the country the source was published in... if you noticed in my post i disregard any country hyping up their own forces as that would be expected... the media is a good source of information used critically and taken with a grain of salt... you just have to read between the lines of what their saying. As for judging them by same-same mission... i think the fact that the US forces couldnt take and hold the Southern Iraqi city of Basra and had to call in the British to do the Job properly is a good example of same mission comparison... things as simple as swapping helmets for berets and having their guns at their sides instead of at the ready ensured the british gained the trust of the Iraqis so they then could establish relative stability in the city.
Another comparison is the death toll from the US compared to the British (or even Australian) forces. Admittedly the numbers of US forces in the region were higher but the ratio of Casualties - Troops is definaltly also higher for the US forces... (EG of the 5000 aussie troops sent, no casualties reported)

Also just general info given online by various people has helped me come to my decision... my opinion of BEST is the one that gets the job done the best with minimal causalties to themselves and civilians..

p.s the Us like to hype themselves up and the SAS are quiet achievers gaining respect through actions not words

pps in regard to above list on prev post... i think the SAS does all these much better than the US... troops from other countries always complain about US troops incompetence and prefer to work in units without US influence...

Perfect example the war in Afghanistan a birtish officer stated (this is not a direct quote i cant find the article, it was from either the Sydney Morning Herald or the Australian)

'an SAS troop can survive in the wilderness on a tube of toothpaste and a canteen of water, whilst a US troop complains if they dont get a milkshake and hotdog each day'

now obviously this is an exagerration and may be bias coming from a British officer but it outlines the dissatisfaction toher forces have working alongside the US and i feel that being ale to work with others is an important value for an elite unit


[Edited on 11-2-2004 by specialasianX]

Originally posted by silQ
OMFG!!! WHO REALLY CARES?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!?!!!??!?!?!?!!??!???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!??!??!?!

Obviously we care, so please dont post and make your self look like an idiot.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

It's obviously biased because it's written by a member of the SBS. He obviously has a great pride for his people, which is why it is biased, but not in a bad way. I not only know of SEAL training, but my father commanded a unit of them, and also came up with their training program, and trust me, what you read and see on T.V., isn't even half of what they do or are capable of. Most of that is under constant Classification of Top-Secret, or above. God forbid anyone ever has to face a combined team of both SEAL's and SBS. I believe that they are both the Elite of the Elite.


[Edited on 2-11-2004 by TheAgentNineteen]

The guy I believe trained with. or at least had good friends of his train with, the SEALS.
I used to be a great fan of the SEALs. LRRPs (in Vietnam), etc..
but IMHO they are much to gung-ho, and unprofessional (like the Jessica Lynch assault video, shouting 'GoGoGo' like madmen).
I was judging eliteness off of the difficulty of the selection course (e.g. SAS selection takes like a year, first phase is walking, up to 150 lbs and up to 75 km, also being required to run 8 miles in an hour, with a bergen, etc)
Also the percent pass:fail is a useful indicator...
IMHO the SEALs are more comparable to the Royal Marines than SAS/SBS.
I dont doubt the SEALs ability to kill if they are required to, I just doubt their ability to carry out long-term 'evade the enemy' missions, for example SCUD hunting, or reconnaissances, without going 'Rambo' and trying to shoot up a target, whereas the SAS would normally pull out to keep themselves concealed and call in support craft.
I think the Spetsnaz are the best when it comes to hand-to-hand though, some of the things they are trained are suprising, and at one SF olympics, the last 8 through were all russian men trained in the Spetsnaz fighting arts, cant remember what it's called off the top of my head.. they are trained to win in a 4 on 1 situation and things... really well trained


EDIT:: I also think the average American, especially soldiers, think they are too invincible, from watching films like Rambo, etc...
This was one of the main things with 9/11, no one expected America to get hit because it was supposedly 'invincible'... It was a very rude awakening, but one that was important.

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by browha]

Hahaha...no man the average american soldier doesn't think hes invincible. Take it from me, I'm in Iraq, and if anybody thought they were invincible, a couple days over here would provem wrong.

the reason SEAL's come off as "gung ho" or "like Rambo" is because a main doctrin of their strategy is to compinsate for their lack of numbers with overwhelming violence. Literally. That is a common tactic that they use. As for the SEALs not being elite, give me a break - they are the 2nd best SF the US has (Delta are the best IMO).

As for the SAS being soooooo much better then the SEALs and training the SEALs - no they are not better, and no, they do not train the SEALs. I have a very good friend who is actually a SEAL (underwater demolition expert, fluent in english, spanish, and Aribic) who was never trained by any britt. The US, UK, and other nations do train together to teach new tactics though - but it is MUTUAL LEARNING.

I have shot pistols, shotguns and rifles with him on more than one occasion (he is a damn good shot - especially with a pistol), and have been in a bar fight once with him. TRUST ME, DO NOT # WITH SEALS. This guy took 4 biker type guys each of which was about 6'3" 250lbs (no exageration) with his hands before the bouncers broke it up. I can attest first hand on how effective they are in h2h.

Very few of you have any Idea of what you speak. No soldier is invincible. Military doctrine calls for 3:1 ratios for attack. Any Ranger, Seal, Green Beret, or Marine Force Recon will prove a veritable force in any close quarter engagement. And don't get me started on SFOD-D.

DeltaChaos Out

The SEALs 'lack of numbers' is non-existant. It is 10x bigger than the SBS, and the SBS still seem to be called up by US Commanders for missions more than the SEALs.
Running through a field with a machine gun isnt the way to destroy an enemy position, you need to use tact, like the SAS.
the US Marines sniper school was set up by the SAS/SBS, so please, dont talk about us not teaching your forces anything when it isnt true.
hell the Delta Force was openly modeled on the SAS.

Dude!... What the hell are you talking about?!!!

[Edited on 12-2-2004 by DeltaChaos]

There are roughly 3000 SEALs, compared to only 250 SBS

Every Con, Nick & Harry, reckons their country' elite
are the best. That's good. It means u r a Patriot.
Anyway, what about a bit of Aussie ingenuity. After all,
we did invent the rotary clothes-line, the lawn-mower
and the concrete truck (agitator). I really need some sleep,
so here is the link...TA-DA...

www.newsaustralia.com...

Originally posted by specialasianX
We should insitgate a war in between the US and The UK... hell lets get Australia, The French foreign Legion and any ther spec ops out there too... then we'll know for sure

Good idea, but let's get the right MMPRPG. That way all of us
don't get hurt(except one's pride) I HATE 'REAL' WAR!!

Originally posted by browha
the US Marines sniper school was set up by the SAS/SBS.

BULLSHYT!....Heres a link take note of June 1,1977
that school was started by James Land Capt usmc,with the help of the Legendary "Whitefeather" Gsgt Carlos Hathcock.
www.cybersniper.com...

Originally posted by Quicksilver

Originally posted by John Nada
The US are the elite because they have the better technology and weapons.

If it was down to hand to hand combat I'd say the US were probably at the bottom of the pile, although I'd pit them against a German Cocktail Waitress any day of the week.

Omg you crack me up how bought u come to my town where Delta Force is stationed and come tell that to one of em?? OH btw i dont knwo about Seal Team being in Iraq but i know for a fact taht Delta was tehre cause once again many people from my town disappeared fro a few months

I'm honestly not being funny here but I can't understand a word of your post so I can't respond to it.


[Edited on 12-2-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by cyberpilot

Originally posted by browha
the US Marines sniper school was set up by the SAS/SBS.

BULLSHYT!....Heres a link take note of June 1,1977
that school was started by James Land Capt usmc,with the help of the Legendary "Whitefeather" Gsgt Carlos Hathcock.
www.cybersniper.com...

Actually I have read the Hathcock Book, but the school was started by the SBS who helped to train the men there, and basically did the original training in the first place

The best special forces are:

1. England's SAS.
2. Greece's OYK.
3. The Isrealis.
4. The Americans.

The above ranking is the result of an joint exercise between special forces from each country that includes the most difficult tests humans have ever faced. It is done every few years. No one has managed to break the above order, although OYK has come on top numerous times.