Special Forces Convo : Originally Called 'For all those people who think the American Special Force

Originally posted by beretboy22
The source of all this criticism regarding the U.S. Navy SEALS has its sources rooted in the jealousy of knowing that American forces are the best-trained and most well-equipped force in the world. So naturally, people will try to find some weakness within the American military, but the Navy SEALS aren't a good place to look.

best trained huh thats a bit over confident considering we BOTH cross train now if you were better YOU would train us and not the other way around yes ,no?
and i doubt the SEAL's training wich is very tough does not allow you to jump over a pit of spikey things ,BTW that part of the course is optional, while carrying heaveir and heavier objects. aka men,equipment,guns .etc.

I used to think that the SAS/SBS was the best. That was till i read a crap load of books on the Navy SEALS. How can u say they arent the best when you look at their record in vietnam. Even other world spec ops units will say they were the most effective sf unit in Vietnam. For one they had their own hand picked intelligence upon which they made and used for capturing several VC intact(without any "Gung-Ho"-with the rambo definition" Firefights and by the way Gung-Ho means Teamwork.) They were never captured in vietnam. They were the most feared unit by the Vietcong and NVA. Their was a lot of folk lore and urban legends by the vietnamese community of the navy seals coming into their houses at night. Several historians have stated that they ultimately perfected the art of the ambush. The SEALS fire discipline was so great they wouldn't even flinch no matter how close the enemy walked by them, they would just wait for their team leaders signal. If you have ever read the book "The Oral History of the Navy seals" there is an excerpt of a few SEALS driving a small unprotected jeep through several emplacements of enemy VC fire to a US army base just to retrieve a radio. When the SEALS got in the base there were US army special forces and a few SAS members and when the SEAL team leader asked if any wanted to leave with them, they were too scared to leave and stayed hiding in one of the rooms requesting arty support. There was also a tale of a Brit officer attached to a SEAL unit clearing an unoccupied enemy town and the brit officer later awarded himself medals for that mission. And guess what? This was when the SEAL unit just started forming and their training and BUDS was just developed. After BUDS back then SEALS didnt have any official advanced training courses like other sf units did and they still peformed extremely well. Now SEALS have the one of the best training programs. They have an extremely hard screening/training program- BUDS. (For some reason people think after one graduates BUDS they become Navy SEALS.) Afterwards they must attend jump school and then Special Qualifications Training.(SQT) Where they spend many months learning and practicing advanced techniques day in and day out in; Marksmanhip with a wide variety of weapons, Over the beach operations, leadership, diving, underwater demolition and reconissance,(duh!) Close quarters combat, self defense, Hostage Rescue, Survival in Extreme environments(Kodiak phase in Alaska where they frequently are told to bathe in the freezing alaskan waters.) Rock climbing, Tracking, Patrolling(including the use of simunitions rather then MILES laser system,) Immediate Action Drills, and Basic life saving techniques, walking point, and etc. During early SQT they talk in the classroom to former seals who fought in battles from Vietnam to Afghanistan about their experiences things they learned in combat and how things work in the teams and thier theaters in which they performed their missions. It is only after SQT that they receive the Trident pin and are official Navy SEALS. Guess what? After all that training they still dont go operational. After SQT they go into PRODEV(Proffesional Development Skills) in which Newbies to the SEAL teams or Experienced Operators who havent gone operational in a while and need to have a quick refresher spend a few months going to other schools around the world and learning things that would benefit their teams such as Sniper Schools, Advanced Communications Equipment, Army Special Forces 18-D school(medic school), and the Aussie Tracking School, Leadership, etc. Or for the more experienced SEAL operators they often use some of the time of PRODEV to spend time with their families. After PRODEV they move on to Plattoon Training, in which they are attached to a plattoon and perform training specified to the Plattoons tailoring, such as languages are learned depending on where the platoon is stationed, how the platoon fights in their theater they are stationed in, such as jungle warfare or desert warfare. All the training in Plattoon Training is beefed up considerably, all the training is to be performed much more faster with a zero tolerance for error, team members should know exactly how their swim buddy and teammates behave and where they are with out much use of communication. Then after Plattoon Training they move on to Unit Deployment Training in which they perform mock excerises at the the large unit (SEAL Team Level) level and learn how to communicate and perform with all other elements, larger elements, and higher ranks of Naval Special Warfare, also joint excercises and cross training with other world spec ops units. Then finally after Unit Deployment Training they go operational for a while and then after their operational status they go back to the training cycle starting with PRODEV. Even after a SEAL member goes through all this training and goes operational they are still considered rookies and one tour wonders by other SEALS. Now if you want the ultimate Warriors u get DEVGRU(formerly called SEAL TEAM SIX.) These guys are hardcore the navy's equivalent of SOFD-DELTA. They are hand picked from a pool of the best and most experienced SEALS and then are attached to green cell(training for new DEVGRU members), and from their to other cells such as logistic cells, Sniper Cells, VIP detail Cells, Assault Cells, and Gold Cell which is the premier Assault cell. Recently DEVGRU members were detached to Bosnia to hunt war criminals and you know how they were transported? They didnt want anyone to know of the presence of DEVGRU members they didnt even want allies at bases in Bosnia to know DEVGRU members where there so they put several man sized containers with a DEVGRU member in each container on board a cargo plane, and when the plane landed they shiped the containers to secret parts of the base where they could stage with out others knowing of their presence. I know sounds like complete BS but its true you can go to the this link for proof if it still works-www.specialoperations.com... Anyways i know that was alot of stuff i posted and honestly most special forces can peform each others missions well enough to accomplish them. But on all these message boards i have seen everyone post about almost every other Spec Op unit besides the SEALs and i figured not much people know that much about them or post much about them, so i might as well post something on them. As for the comment of why are there two Maritime special wafare units in the U.S(excluding Navy SWCCS)- Marine Force Recon and the Navy SEALS, well they both perform different missions. Force Recon are trained to go deep inland and perform reconissance for usually an MEU or Marine Battalion and then slip out unnoticed. While Navy SEALS are used primarilly for going inland without being noticed, perform a direct action mission such as a snatch and grab or destroy a target and then slip out unnoticed.

dude the SEAL's have nothing on the spetnaz troopers. the SEAL's are about the same level as the SAS. now the SEAL's are a maritime unit they are used to support the US NAVY in missions , the SAS and SBS have the advantage of being able to work in all three services. and to pass for the SBS you need to have spent several years in the marines/RN and have completed the comando course,the swimmer kayack course, then you have to pass the SAS selection and have to pass to get into selecton for the SBS and to pass that you get your level 3 swimmer kayacker.

spetnaz is a grade higher, they must be long serveing members of the russian army and then get the opertunity to join. they're training is intense, instructors HIT them when you do something wrong, they get thrown into the wilderness with one round and nothing else, they must make it to another rendevue while surviveing. they get snakes thrown over them as they walk into a class. they get rats put in their boots before they wake. this is just a small amount of what they do, the SEAL's are good but no where near spetnaz level, only the israeli units are close.

For fu's sake people, LET IT GO! This was a stupid premise for a thread in the first place.

Let the dead stay dead! Especially dead horses.

here is one of the stories told by the vietcong about the SEALS

"As dawn was breaking over the small Vietnamese villiage inside the Mekong Delta, the girl was worried. The headman of the village had not yet woken. True, he had been very tired the night before, but in a couple of hours he had to attend an important meeting some miles away, to co-ordinate a major strike against the Yankee invader. Well at least he'd enjoyed an undisturbed sleep. The girl had been on guard duty during the night and knew that nothing suspicious had happend. She would have to wake him she decided, and approached the door of his hut. His sleeping form did not stir as she called his name softly, so she went inside and bent over him about to shake him by the shoulder. She froze His stomach had been cut open, and his severed liver lay next to the ugly gash. A peice of it had been roughly bitten off. She knew what she would find even before she looked at his face. It had been roughly decorated with green stipes of paint. The "Green Faced Men" had paid her a visit during the night. (a storey told among Vietcong troops about the "green faced men". The navy seals were a terror to the VC and NVA)"

The navy seals are the most sick forces in the world. My uncles best friend who he works out with, who was a Marine Recon in the Gulfwar, said that one seal can take out 5 Recon out armed or not armed.

Now thats some sick stuff.

Originally posted by Laxpla
The navy seals are the most sick forces in the world. My uncles best friend who he works out with, who was a Marine Recon in the Gulfwar, said that one seal can take out 5 Recon out armed or not armed.

Now thats some sick stuff.

Hmmm, I think he may be exagerating just a little.

Originally posted by Laxpla
The navy seals are the most sick forces in the world. My uncles best friend who he works out with, who was a Marine Recon in the Gulfwar, said that one seal can take out 5 Recon out armed or not armed.

Now thats some sick stuff.

dude five takeing out 1?
look it might be true but dont belive everything your told.

Hmmm, I think he may be exagerating just a little.

yeah i think so

[edit on 31-10-2004 by devilwasp]
here is a single operation done during WW2 done by spetnaz.

Operation "War of the Rails" was carried out simultaneously in a territory with a front more than 1.000 kilometres wide and more than 500 kilometres in depth. On the first night of the operation 42.000 explosions took place on the railway lines, and the partisan activity increased with every night that passed. The German high command threw in tremendous forces to defend their lines of communication, so that every night could be heard not only the sound of bridges and railway lines being blown up but also the sounds of battle with the German forces as the partisans fought their way through to whatever they had to destroy. Altogether, in the course of the operation 215.000 rails, 836 complete trains, 184 rail and 556 road bridges were blown up. A vast quantity of enemy equipment and ammunition was also destroyed.

the partians were the original spetnaz unit.
but i agree we should leave this thread to die, we all have our opinions and views about who is the best and who is the worst. lets leave this thread to die.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by devilwasp]

[edit on 31-10-2004 by devilwasp]

Partisans were guerillas. The fore runner to the Spetznaz was the Soviet paratroopers used several time in raids behind the lines in WW2. They took some very heavy losses fighting the Germans.

Originally posted by mad scientist
Partisans were guerillas. The fore runner to the Spetznaz was the Soviet paratroopers used several time in raids behind the lines in WW2. They took some very heavy losses fighting the Germans.

yeah this was a division in the russian paratrooper ...brigade/force?? they got paracuted everything in and done gurilla raids.
yeah every force in ww2 did, they did face a very determined enemy.
though that kind of war wont happen again.

[edit on 31-10-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by mad scientist

Originally posted by Laxpla
The navy seals are the most sick forces in the world. My uncles best friend who he works out with, who was a Marine Recon in the Gulfwar, said that one seal can take out 5 Recon out armed or not armed.

Now thats some sick stuff.

Hmmm, I think he may be exagerating just a little.

No, I do not think so. Ill ask him tuesday.

"dude the SEAL's have nothing on the spetnaz troopers. the SEAL's are about the same level as the SAS. now the SEAL's are a maritime unit they are used to support the US NAVY in missions , the SAS and SBS have the advantage of being able to work in all three services. and to pass for the SBS you need to have spent several years in the marines/RN and have completed the comando course,the swimmer kayack course, then you have to pass the SAS selection and have to pass to get into selecton for the SBS and to pass that you get your level 3 swimmer kayacker."

Um right, thats why once the Army held the The 5th Annual 10th Special Forces Group Competition International Military Sniper Competition SEAL Team 2 got 1st place out of all the other countries and the U.S's special forces. -


"After it was all said and done, the 5th place team was from C Company, 3rd Battalion, 172nd Infantry, US Army National Guard. The 4th place went to SEAL Delivery Vehicle (SDV) Team 2, US Navy. 3rd place was won by B Company, 5th Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group (ABN), US Army National Guard. The runner-up sniper team came from the SEALs again, at Naval Special Warfare Group Two (NSWG-2), US Navy. Finally, as with all competitions, the men who proved they had what it took to overcome any obstacle set before them and end up on the top of the pile, 1st place for the 5th Annual 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne) International Sniper Competition was won by the shooters from SEAL Team Two, US Navy."

Heres the link if u dont believe me-www.snipercountry.com...

Originally posted by Sobikop
Um right, thats why once the Army held the The 5th Annual 10th Special Forces Group Competition International Military Sniper Competition SEAL Team 2 got 1st place out of all the other countries and the U.S's special forces. -

haveing just snipers is not a special forces unit. its a sniper unit BOG STANDARD snipers are very good but are not SF.
HA HA thats over 5 years ago! look man alot can happen in 5 years. hell 1998 jeez that only proves you had good snipers that year.
since when do seals get snakes thrown on thier heads or rats put in their boots when they walk in a room.
look man no one has the best SF. they all specilise in an area.
it could be combat ,concealment,reacon,survival,snipeing,guirllia warfare... ETC. ETC.

Don't say that, you'll start to make "sense". Soon this "sense" will spread to all of ATS! The ATS would be ruined, because the majority of users would make "sense" and therefore turned on it's head.

Originally posted by DeltaNine
Don't say that, you'll start to make "sense". Soon this "sense" will spread to all of ATS! The ATS would be ruined, because the majority of users would make "sense" and therefore turned on it's head.

ahh your right , quick stop all this "sense" stuff.....

Originally posted by specialasianX
Admittedly the numbers of US forces in the region were higher but the ratio of Casualties - Troops is definaltly also higher for the US forces... (EG of the 5000 aussie troops sent, no casualties reported)
[Edited on 11-2-2004 by specialasianX]

Wouldn't want to be seen contradiciting a fellow Aussie (I assume you are) but I hope your 5000 figure includes RAAF and RAN deployments.

4RAR (Cdo) and the SAS does not 5000 soldiers make and that's who we had on the ground. 4RAR itself is a batallion of roughly 850 to 1000. 22ASAS isn't 4000 men.

The no casulaties figure was true until last week, 'though.

No deaths in major combat operations. Not bad.

Originally posted by Sobikop
I used to think that the SAS/SBS was the best. That was till i read a crap load of books on the Navy SEALS. How can u say they arent the best when you look at their record in vietnam. Even other world spec ops units will say they were the most effective sf unit in Vietnam. For one they had their own hand picked intelligence upon which they made and used for capturing several VC intact(without any "Gung-Ho"-with the rambo definition" Firefights and by the way Gung-Ho means Teamwork.) They were never captured in vietnam. They were the most feared unit by the Vietcong and NVA.

Look up the ASAS (and NZSAS) record for Vietnam. They will not say the SEALs were the best in Vietnam.
Death stalked Phuoc Tuy province and it wasn't USN.
Plus NVA have been quoted as saying they feared 1ATF more than any other allied unit. And most of the ANZACs were just grunts.

Yes the Australians taught the Amercians how to how to jungle fight, there is no dispute about that. The really tough unit in Vietnam were the SOG toopers half of their missions were suicidal - deep behind the enemy lines.

You may also be interested in reading The Real Bravo Two Zero by Michael Asher... in the official debrief given to Bravo Two Zero they didnt mention anything like the resistance etc mentioned in the book Bravo Two Zero.. also it seems that the alleged torture etc was a complete fabrication. Dont forget Bravo Two Zero is a commerical book and Andy McNab now writes fictional books for money.

Read, in this order:

BTZ - A McNab
The one that got away - Chris Ryan
The Real Bravo Two Zero - Michael Asher

THEN read Soldier Five.

BTW, this was personal advice from someone who knows all personalities involved.

Australian SAS owns all. Hell we were in iraq before the damn war started