Is everyone in this picture SEALs, or is it a JSOU?

Mr. M

Hang on a sec..just re-reading this thread...
On the imagine, it was brought up that it was post1993 camo schemes... That means it was a photo probably taken in the Gulf War that happened last year...
Surely this does not invalidate my point of only one seal in the 1990 Gulf War
(admittedly which is unlikely, but it is quoted inside a Special Forces book so I'd like to find the truth out about it)

hey browna uv got a point there
hmm very interesting

nice photo

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by Vanguard]

If you read anything by Demo Dick I think you will notice that SF crosstraining is the norm. This doesn't mean anything other than that they are all trying to learn new things constantly. Which you would expect.

If you read McNabs books I think you'll come away with the fact that the Brits are lacking the kit that the US has, along with all the support elements. It seemed like SF on the cheap.

Spouting that McNab was the reason the fellas got in the #e seems also to be a stretch. Sitting in a cozy pub with a pint and nit-picking the descisions of a commander on the ground, under fire and in terrible weather seems inane to me. It sucks when good people die. But, truth is they are just men. Freeze them and they get cold, shoot them and they bleed. Those poor bastards had bad luck from the get go.
Wasn't McNab exonerated of any wrongdoing?

Variable

Actually
McNab's book and McNab's post-action debriefing have some very large differences.
For examples of them, I suggest you read The Real Brave Two Zero by Michael Asher, and some of it is discussed in In The Eye of the Storm by Peter Radcliffe (sp?)
McNab's book is almost a fictional works based upon an incident which actually happened...
For example, his statment of killing a load of Iraqi soldiers on the first night is a great exaggeration upon the actions of 3 local 'farmers' who got their AKs out and started shooting up... His accusation of beatings have now been debunked as unfounded and fictional... And his escape route was of his own making, completely contrary to the SAS mission plan which was SE towards (not sure on my Iraq Geography) a border between somewhere, rather than NW (180 degrees away from the search pattern that was looking for them).


Edit: McNab, despite being one of the most decorated active serving soldiers at the time, is a lying bastard, and abuses the incidents that happened to him and 7 other SAS soldiers (especially by pinning the blame, falsely, upon one of them who died, of the 23 SAS (TA) who was a fierce rival) to make himself a successful commerical author.

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by browha]

so true so true
that SOB cost the lives of some very good men
that guy saved his own ass while his team got killed but we cannot as micheal fisher says blame chris for everything it was HQ's fault for not having the gear

I find it interesting (not to mention very entertaining) to read threads like this where "military enthusiasts" or "military experts" (and the list goes on) make posts based on their "perspective" that was gained from reading "real" and "official" websites on the internet. It becomes even more interesting when the people making these posts have no actual background or experience in the topic they are posting about, and have never served in the military (let alone been in a special operations unit, or even an intelligence unit for those that like to post about those things).

As for Seals not being "allowed" in country during the time period specified, that is so beyond ridiculous that I am not even going to waste my time posting links to information on internet sites to even refute this.

Also, if you see a single US Special Operations service member (whether they be Special Forces, Rangers, Seals, Marine Force Recon, ParaRescue or Combat Controllers) with a foreign special operations unit in a non-combat environment, it is usually for either: (1) training purposes - regardless of whether he is being trained or doing the training, (2) special operations liaison.

If you see a single US Special Operations service member with a foreign special operations unit in a combat environment, it is usually for either (1) mission liaison, or (2) mission attachment based on the service member meeting a very specific mission requirement.

All that aside, just about every country with a military service has forces that they have trained and refer to as "special operations forces". Some of them are very good at what they do, and some are not. This is a reality. Some countries have "SOF" that are no better than the typical US Army Infantry Soldier (11B) that just graduated from the training course (and who is not SOF qualified by any means).

But, there are two countries whose Special Operations Forces and Intelligence Services I have an incredible amount of respect for, so much that I am confident that whoever or whatever was their mission target would greatly regret having that status conferred upon them.

Those countries are:
1.Israel (too many units and organizations to list)
2.Great Britain (Special Air Service, Royal Marines/Special Boat Service...and they have the Parachute Regiment as well)

Originally posted by letteraccess

1.Israel (too many units and organizations to list)

isreals forces do worry me, i mean thet have a very scary reputation.
USA is quite good but one thing i dont get is why there are two diffrent units for the water bit AKA seals and marine force reacon. why not combine the two?

Yeah, Israeli SF pwnz

I can answer questions about it if you wish...

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
Yeah, Israeli SF pwnz

I can answer questions about it if you wish...

umm whats the most secretive? i've heard the name of it i think but i cant remember it.

I could be wrong but I believe that the best special forces are the ones that we don't even know about yet.

Originally posted by letteraccess
I find it interesting (not to mention very entertaining) to read threads like this where "military enthusiasts" or "military experts" (and the list goes on) make posts based on their "perspective" that was gained from reading "real" and "official" websites on the internet. It becomes even more interesting when the people making these posts have no actual background or experience in the topic they are posting about, and have never served in the military (let alone been in a special operations unit, or even an intelligence unit for those that like to post about those things).

and you have ? Because you are posting the exact same stuff you are critisizing people for. Nothing worse than a hypocrit.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Transc3ndent
Yeah, Israeli SF pwnz

I can answer questions about it if you wish...

umm whats the most secretive? i've heard the name of it i think but i cant remember it.

It depends on what you call "secretive". Most of the known elite SF units in Israel are "secretive" in a sense that about 95% of their operations remain classified and unknown. Units such as Shayetet 13 have dozens of operations deep in palestinian towns, and info about it released only when a soldier dies (which happens very rarely). Other units, such as Sayeret MATKAL, are even more secretive. Although MATKAL is one of the most known units in Israel (like delta in the us), you never hear anything at all about its operations. It is also known that many operations which are conducted by elite units are published in the media as being conducted by some other - less elite - unit. This happened several times to the unit YAMAM.

There are some very elite units whos existance is not known to most of the public, but its not classified. The IAFs unit SHALDAG is considered to be one of the best units in Israel, but it remains out of the spotlight. This unit, btw, probably was in Iraq during (and before) both of the gulf wars (and as a comment, Sayeret Matkal planned to assasinate Saddam ones).

Other than that it is rumored that there are many units in the IDF whos existance is classified. Many of those units are not SF and are not even combat units. Military Intelligence branch, for example, is probably the most secretive branch in the IDF (Sayeret Matkal is part of it by the way) and its known that it has units such as unit 504 (who's name is no longer 504) which deals with HUMINT operations.

Several times I heard the name "Keysaria", reffered to a secret unit within the Mossad, but this is just a rumor.

Either way, each unit has its own insignia (sort of metal symbol which soldiers wear on their clothes). Before sensored, the site Isayeret.com had a part with photos of several "unknown insignias", some of them looked very weird. This is probably the first part which were completely removed from the site after the owner was arrested.


[edit on 25/10/04 by Transc3ndent]

It's kind of funny, because the US has Special Forces, within Special Forces, that you will never hear about. There is much more to Navy SEALs than you could ever read off of any book, or web-site.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
It's kind of funny, because the US has Special Forces, within Special Forces, that you will never hear about. There is much more to Navy SEALs than you could ever read off of any book, or web-site.

The same goes for all elite SF's not just the SEAL's. The ASAS has carried out many secret missions over the last 20 years yet you here almost nothing of them unlike the US and Brit SF's.

Originally posted by mad scientist


The same goes for all elite SF's not just the SEAL's. The ASAS has carried out many secret missions over the last 20 years yet you here almost nothing of them unlike the US and Brit SF's.

ever heard of the SAS's M squadron secret unit? works with MI5 tis very secret.
yeah most ex- SF guys can keep thier mouths shut but some dont, and give it all away.

Wouldn't M-s be attached to SIS rather than MI5 due to the "external" application of them?

Originally posted by rezyn
Wouldn't M-s be attached to SIS rather than MI5 due to the "external" application of them?

they work with both i believe , you know sorta spy hunting and any other little things the SIS wants.

The source of all this criticism regarding the U.S. Navy SEALS has its sources rooted in the jealousy of knowing that American forces are the best-trained and most well-equipped force in the world. So naturally, people will try to find some weakness within the American military, but the Navy SEALS aren't a good place to look.