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Jesus & Enoch: Is this a contradiction?

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posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
THis is on a tangent, but can you shed any thoughts on the last verst? Why would Jesus minister to souls that are already in hell?


As I stated above, we are not told. Some speculate that they were the Nephilim or at least sinful humans that did not have the Gospel, the Law, knowledge of a personal God, etc., so Jesus went to minister to them so they could have another chance. Some say Jesus went to tell them they are imprisoned because they did not listen to the information they did receive from Noah. But it is speculation. Some say Jesus took mercy on them because they were alive before the progressive revelation to mankind (through the Old and New Testaments) while others think Jesus was confirming their judgement as they didn't heed the warning and revelation they did receive. Again, it is all speculation. We don't know.


I've already stated, I am refering to the fact that Enoch saved himself, not mankind!


But did he? Did he rapture himself? Did he save himself from the flood? No, God saved him due to his righteousness. But Enoch did not do it himself. I see what you're saying but it's not a case that Enoch "earned" his way into Heaven but that God gave him a unique blessing that is believed to be a possible foreshadowing to the rapture.

If Christians are raptured, it's not by our own works or righteousness. We are righteous because He has declared us righteous.

But this is the best answer to your question: Jesus is described as the lamb slain since the creation of the world. What on earth does this mean? Jesus wasn't' crucified until 2,000 years ago! It means His death was eternal and so was salvation. Some believe those who believed in the promise of a coming Messiah receive the same blessing as those in our age who believe the Messiah has come. In other words, Jesus saved all people past, present, and future even if those who died before the crucifixion had to wait until they were fully restored. Enoch included. The resurrection is eternal and so is salvation. All one has to do is believe and all sins are covered past, present, and future for those who do.

THAT is the heart of God.

[edit on 1/12/2008 by AshleyD]




posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 



Maybe Ashely will agree, but Jesus didn't "minister" to the souls. The word used in the scripture means "proclamation." Jesus proclaimed ...



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
In the old testement it says that Enoch was a righteous man, so much so that he walked with God and then was taken away, thus escaping death. It says that he was a human, directly decended from Adam, and thus a part of fallen mankind, so he wasn't, physically or spiritually, any different than the rest of us, but it states specifically that he was taken away because of his own righteousness.

In the new testement, however, it says that "No one comes to the father except through [Jesus]" and that man is not saved by his own actions. I don't know if there is a verse that states this specifically but I have always understood that Jesus came to free us from death.


Either Enoch's story is a historical reference to something we know nothing about, or else both Enoch's being "taken away" and "finding Jesus" are both symbols for pretty much the same thing.

Jesus is a symbol for the fully-realized human being that each of us could be. He's a symbol of someone who has turned their reflection completely inward and experienced gnosis or enlightenment. Thus "the kingdom of Heaven is within you." Carefully looking through the bible for metaphors along these lines is the only way to actually find real spiritual progression from it (and it would probably be easier just to study gnostic texts or the Kabbalah or etc.). If you interpret it literally or traditionally as all the masses have done, then you will never understand it and you will never know God. Learning what "god" is, is much more valuable than knowing your bible verses or etc.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:06 PM
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Ah, I found the verse finally:

"For Christ died for sins once for all... Also He went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built..." I Peter 3:18-20

As you can see, we don't have a lot to go on which is why I don't have any educated personal opinion on what this means. I tend to agree with Posey in that Jesus was proclaiming his triumph to the unrepentant and possibly demons. Remember, we are told that if the dark powers knew the significance of the crucifixion and resurrection, they never would have killed Jesus.

In other words, they thought "Ah ha! Killing Jesus will prevent Him from saving mankind." Oops. It went just the opposite for them so many believe Jesus was explaining it to them at that time. Maybe giving them one last chance, maybe simply explaining the principle behind their actions and punishment.

[edit on 1/12/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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I'm not a Christian but I'll give my opinion here: One could argue that AFTER Jesus was sent here, he became the only way to attain salvation, like Enoch being taken because of his righteousness. Also, I believe Jesus was supposedly sent here to make Christianity and salvation more well-known.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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As the late Bertrand Russell (an atheist) observed years ago concerning religion "where no one knows anything, everyone has his own opinion". This observation is being well illustrated here. Keep up the good work!



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 10:51 PM
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Someone brought up an interesting point here.

They said Moses and Elijah were taken away just like Enoch.
Moses body was not to be found in one case.
Elijah was taken up in a windstorm.

Peter, James and John witnessed a vision where Jesus was transformed into an angel of light and was shown talking with Elijah and Moses. The record says that they were up on a lofty mountain when the vision occured. The lofty mountain was likely Mt. Hermon. This mountain is 2,814m or 9232 ft.

In the book of Jude, Michael the archangel was having an argument with the Devil about Moses' body. Even the spirit creatures were speculating about what happened to his body.

Jude actually quotes from a source that resembles the Book of Enoch because he said,

"And Enoch also the seventh one from Adam, prophesied of these saying, Behold the lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. To execute judgement upon all and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they ungodly committed and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." -Jude 14-15

The only place this quote is seen is from Enoch chapter 2. What is interesting is that Enoch 7:7 says 200 angels descended onto Mt. Armon, which is Mt. Hermon, sometime during the antediluvian era. In this book Enoch said God commanded him to bring a judgement message to the unholy angels that left their stations in the heavens. He says,

"Then the lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women." Enoch 7:5 (section 3)

It's possible that Enoch went up to this Mt. Hermon to give this warning message.

By the way Jude was one of Jesus' fleshly brothers. Jesus probably told Jude some interesting stuff while they were growing up.

One another note. Enoch, Moses and Elijah all disappeared but Jesus was seen going to heaven after he died. He hung around earth for 30 days before leaving the planet. Didn't Moses represent the Law and Elijah the Propets? Then Enoch must have been associated with something similar, like Jesus with the Law and the Prophets.

Maybe there were inspired records from the time of Enoch to Abraham that were no longer needed because the later writings of the Law and the Prophets replaced them.

It looks like who ever gets taken up is the one to follow.

Enoch went up, follow him. -Enoch the Prophet who saw it all.
Moses went up, follow him. -Law
Elijah went up, follow him. -Prophets
Jesus went up, follow him. -The King and redeemer

[edit on 13-1-2008 by lostinspace]



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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responding to the topic. I think we must remember that Jesus start new laws and ways to live. Before that there was a way to live by laws. When Jesus came to laws came into play. You cant take the new laws and mix it with the old.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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The problem with most peoples assumptions on this topic matter is that they are failing to see the larger picture. You all are getting bogged down in the consept of time. This came before that only in the context of the mindset of humanity in the linear understanding of Time.

Time only exists in context to you all according to your understanding of time. Time exists in context with other beings diffrently.

TIME DOESN'T EXIST IN THE CONTEXT OF THE CREATOR FATHER GOD!!!



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 11:51 PM
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Yes it does. God is just not subject to the constraints of time the way we are, trapped in our flesh during our mortal lifetime.

A moment is an eternity and eternity is a moment to God. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

But of course you know that already.



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 04:30 PM
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In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Maybe that's why Enoch was translated/taken/raptured. Because God can do all things. Enoch found favor in God's eyes. Anyway this is just my opinion. Only God can answer your question really.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 11:31 PM
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Hi asmeone2/




Originally posted by asmeone2
Hi, I have a question about the Bible that is really bugging me!


I'd say this more likely be in the computer 'the bug', then the Bible!




I am not asking this to try to discredit it, I'm genuinely curious:

In the old testement it says that Enoch was a righteous man, so much so that he walked with God and then was taken away, thus escaping death. It says that he was a human, directly decended from Adam, and thus a part of fallen mankind, so he wasn't, physically or spiritually, any different than the rest of us, but it states specifically that he was taken away because of his own righteousness.


You are correct!
Enoch was a righteous man who walked with God(did all that was according to Gods Law)
Enoch was taken away(in body)having no 'corruption of the body,he was taken with Body and soul..... And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him." (Genesis 5:24)
Enoch and Elias(aka Elijiah) both were Prophets in the Old Testament and highly regarded by the Jews of that time living.
These prophets were so fervent in prayer,always held in high respect for doing Gods work,therefore they were righteous men(as human as us), that God took them in the heavens...awaiting for the end of times...for then they shall experience 'death of the body'......after their testimony of the Antichrist.
All of the Old Testament is a Pre-figuration of the coming of a Saviour 'Jesus Christ' who is called the 'Second Adam.





In the new testement, however, it says that "No one comes to the father except through [Jesus]" and that man is not saved by his own actions. I don't know if there is a verse that states this specifically but I have always understood that Jesus came to free us from death.


Jesus Christ came to save us from DEATH...dying of the flesh...the Body.
The ancestrol sin(God commanded man: "of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eateth thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:16-17) was DEATH to the body that was made for incorruption, but it became 'Corrupt', because of the disobedience of the first man 'Adam'....
However, God so loved the world, that He straight away said....that between him and man there would be a struggle, in which men will be the victors, specifically: "The seed of the woman shall crush thy head, and thou shalt strike at his heel" (Cf. Gen 3:15), that is, from woman there will come forth an offspring — the Saviour of the world, Who will be born of a virgin, will conquer the Devil and save man, but for this, He Himself must suffer.
Jesus Christ is the LOGOS(WORD)Who was with God from the beginning...''In the beginning of the Gospel of Saint John..... inspired by God, wrote: "In the beginning was the Word(Logos),
and the Word(Logos) was with God,
and the Word(Logos) was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him,
and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life,
and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness did not comprehend it...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

Jesus says this about Himself in John 8:23 "You are from beneath;
I am from above.
You are of this world; I am not of this world."
Later same chapter we are told He says: "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
When St. Moses asked God what His name was,
God answered, "tell them I AM sends you."
When Jesus uses this same convention,
He is saying that He is "I AM", or God.
The Jews of His day were VERY aware of this.
It is because Jesus claimed Himself the Son of God that He was crucified, because many considered Him guilty of blasphemy,
of claiming to be God.



I am having trouble reconciling these two anectdotes! Why does it say that no one can come to the father without Jesus, when Enoch had already done that?
Furthermore, since Enoch was human and was able to "Walk with God" by virture of his own righteousness, doesn't this mean that the rest of us at least have the potential to do this as well? If so, what is the point of sending Jesus at all? What is the point of him dying for us, if people like Enoch, by thier own righteousness, can escape death?

Yes we are called Saints.....but are we humble?
Do we pray(look at the Old Testament prophets)........Moses,Elijah,Enoch and all the other Great prophets?
Do we fast as the Scriptures tells us?
Do we have the potential to do this?
Yes!
But are we capable to do this without Pride?
Enoch and Elijah were so great,that they shall come at the very end of the World.....their prayer and fervent teachings of the Word of God shall proclaim the End is near.
Then many shall believe......for they shall finish their testimony about the end, and then they shall be put to death and rise after 3 and half days and all shall see them.....then it's APOCALYPSE time!




So, all you Christians, please answer this one for me. And, please give logical answers, not just the "God does things that we might not understand" variety of response. Thanks!

[edit on 12-1-2008 by asmeone2]


asmeone2/ I can tell you now, that in order to understand Scripture,you need to look at all of the Bible,not just pick and chose and try and learn of what makes sense or not.
In order to understand, one needs a teacher to teach......as it says so in the Bible.
You cannot learn to speak if no one teaches or shows you how.
You cannot read if no one is willing to help you.
Same goes with the Scriptures.....(Fathers of the early church are there for all to read......
Prayer and fasting began in the Garden of Eden....man wanted more, and man still wants more...
well, I do hope I made a little sense.....
take care,
IX
helen



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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asmeone2/ I can tell you now, that in order to understand Scripture,you need to look at all of the Bible,not just pick and chose and try and learn of what makes sense or not.
In order to understand, one needs a teacher to teach......as it says so in the Bible.



You cannot learn to speak if no one teaches or shows you how.
You cannot read if no one is willing to help you.
Same goes with the Scriptures.....(Fathers of the early church are there for all to read


Again helen puts thing beatiful and rightly in the most sents. The bible is the word of God. but to be saved does'nt mean someone has to talk to you. Somewhere in the new testiment it says that all you need is God. And Helen you know that. Haveing someone talk to you helps and it helps on a great scell. But that does'nt save you. What save you its the belief in God.

The fact is someone can speak to you God himself can speaka to you. Throw the bible, and you can speak to god by praying, its called haveing a personal relationship with God let him talk to you and you talk back. Remember the bible is the word of God not the preacher or a certain christian religion. The bible.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
In the new testement, however, it says that "No one comes to the father except through [Jesus]" and that man is not saved by his own actions.


True and as jdposey pointed out on page 2, the work was done before the foundation of the world. The only way a fallen man can be found righteous is to be found in Jesus Christ.

Seek him on the matter and he'll clear it up in you, if it be his will.


Originally posted by asmeone2
If so, what is the point of sending Jesus at all? What is the point of him dying for us, if people like Enoch, by thier own righteousness, can escape death?


If Jesus hadn't have been sent, people like Enoch wouldn't have been righteous. Turn the entire story around and look from the end to the beginning.



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 07:46 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2

In the old testement it says that Enoch was a righteous man, so much so that he walked with God and then was taken away, thus escaping death. It says that he was a human, directly decended from Adam, and thus a part of fallen mankind, so he wasn't, physically or spiritually, any different than the rest of us, but it states specifically that he was taken away because of his own righteousness.

In the new testement, however, it says that "No one comes to the father except through [Jesus]" and that man is not saved by his own actions. I don't know if there is a verse that states this specifically but I have always understood that Jesus came to free us from death.

I am having trouble reconciling these two anectdotes! Why does it say that no one can come to the father without Jesus, when Enoch had already done that? Furthermore, since Enoch was human and was able to "Walk with God" by virture of his own righteousness, doesn't this mean that the rest of us at least have the potential to do this as well? If so, what is the point of sending Jesus at all? What is the point of him dying for us, if people like Enoch, by thier own righteousness, can escape death?

[edit on 12-1-2008 by asmeone2]


First I applaud you in the direction and character of this question. It appears to be a true question seeking an informed answer. It's not a question seeking to bash or mock.

First, where do we read that because of Enoch's own righteousness that God took Him?

We read in Scripture that Enoch walked with God, he was not and God took Him. Does this mean or indicate that Enoch was taken up to heaven alive or did God do the same with Enoch as He did with Moses, which is to bury his body in a secret place?

It is assumed that God took Enoch to heaven but we have no concrete evidence in Scripture that this is the case. Bear in mind that to the Hebrew mind we have 3 levels of heaven. The first heaven is our atmosphere, where birds fly and clouds roam across the sky. The second heaven is space or where the stars and heavenly bodies reside. We then have the third heaven which is Gods abode, His Kingdom. Paul was translated or "taken up" to the third heaven in a vision and he saw things he could not utter or place in words. So we don't see Enoch being physically taken up to heaven (God's abode) "body and spirit". If Enoch was dead then his body went to the ground and his spirit went to be with God, just as did Moses.

Many will state that no one could be in heaven because those who died prior to Jesus death and resurrection went to "paradise" to await the promised Messiah. They also state that during the 3 day period after Jesus had died that He went down into hell to 1) preach to those spirits and those who trusted in Him as Lord would be saved and released to heaven or 2) Jesus took from Satan the keys and released the imprisoned souls. What Scripture speaks of though is nothing of the sort.

Jesus, just prior to death, released up His spirit to God the Father. "Into thy hands I commit My spirit". It was the BODY of Jesus that went into the grave but His spirit went to be with God the Father. Enoch or Moses being in heaven "spiritually" is no problem as Jesus was to be the first resurrected with a new body. Others wrongly use the passage from John to state that no one has ever been to heaven but Jesus.

13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." (John 3:13 NASB)

This statement was said by Christ to point His listeners to Psalm 30:4

Who has ascended into heaven and descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name or His son's name?
Surely you know!

But why? Because He was claiming Himself to be God. This is not a proof-text to show that no one else can be in heaven spiritually.



posted on Jan, 29 2008 @ 02:18 AM
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There have been 2 men, who were taken by God, without death.

The first being Enoch.

The second being Elijah.

You do not come to the Father without coming through Christ.

Christ being synonomous for Gods Love.

Jesus, being Gods Love made manifest.

In performing Love one Another, you honor Christ.

In doing so you honor the Father.

Love one Another has been practiced before Jesus Christ. Is not all Love the Love of God? There have been righteous men who found favor in the eyes of God. There are righteous men today, who also find favor in eyes of God who do not call themselves Christians.

Jesus himself said the following:


17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


Can a blind man see the message but not read the message? Can a seeing man read the message but be blind to the message?

See with your heart. Listen with that which understands right and Good.
In doing so you listen to the Truth. In listening to the Truth, one terminates hate. When hate is terminated, Truth is restored.

With hate terminated, Love is throned.

Peace



[edit on 29-1-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 12:40 PM
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Thank you for your replies, everyone.

lostinspace, I like where you are going with your thoughts!


helen670: I don't think it's fair for you to tell me I'm just "picking and choosing,"
like I said in my OP, I'm not coming at this with an agenda, I'm asking a question about a specific part of the Bible... I don't understand how it fits in to the rest, that's why I'm asking.

I'm not trying to bring about the downfall of Christianity. I just feel that there are too many things that I don't understand, and I feel that I would be a poor representative of God ifI accepted it blindly.

WiseSheep--I like your answer, but the problem I have with it, is why would God create time on earth, but then throw this stuff at humanity that doesn't follow this timeline? It doesn't seem to be a think that an all-powerful God would do.

By the way Helen, after stepping back from "Churchy" teachings, I have come to think that the "Death" m entioned in the Bible that Jesus is supposed to save us from is not the fleshy one, because if so, that has been a failure! Even if Jesus's followers are going to be raised up back to life during his reign, they still all died before hand. I think the "death" is more of a seperation from God, but that is a whole other topic.



posted on Jan, 31 2008 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
WiseSheep--I like your answer, but the problem I have with it, is why would God create time on earth, but then throw this stuff at humanity that doesn't follow this timeline?


Anything on a time line can't help but follow it.

Seek him on the matter.


Originally posted by asmeone2
It doesn't seem to be a think that an all-powerful God would do.


Or the very thing that testifies to his power. The fact that we see things so out of control, when in reality he's in full control.


It would be rather hard for a man to feed a dog that's wearing a muzzle that he can't remove.



posted on Feb, 2 2008 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
I just feel that there are too many things that I don't understand, and I feel that I would be a poor representative of God if I accepted it blindly.


Remember this God wisdom is a continueing of stupying Jesus christ is the way. And the bible is the word of God. But you will always never know everything.



posted on Feb, 12 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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Ive enjoyed this post many of you are indeed on the right road. Having read the book of Enoch myself, I think that by saying Enoch "walked" with God was in reference to not only his physical "disappearance" but also in his dreams and spiritual visions, which are over half the book.It does say Enoch walked with God BEFORE later saying God "took" him which sounds more like physical death in the terms of this writing. After saying god "took" him it goes on to explain Moses birth basically passing the focus onto Moses. Judging by wat ive read here you guys know alot of wisdom when it comes to Gods word, if you havent read the book of Enoch I suggest you do. It answers alot of questions, especially if you can connect the dots
. Peace be with you all


" The book of the words of righteousness, and of the reprimand of the enternal watchers in accordance with the command of the Holy Great One in that vision." Enoch chapter 14 .1

" I saw in my sleep what I will now say with a tounge of flesh and with the breath of my mouth: which the Great One has given to men to converse therewith and understand with the heart." Enoch Chapter 14 .2









;I saw in my sleep

[edit on 12-2-2008 by Blessthelect]







 
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