Jesus & Enoch: Is this a contradiction?

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Since we are all sinners, the chance of our own works getting us into heaven are slim and none, and slim left town.

Can you clarify what you mean? Is this a reference to old/new testament changes?

No. Just the improbability of our own works satisfying the law and getting us into heaven.

The letter of the law is death. The spirit of the law is life. The Old Covenant is the letter of the law. The New Covenant is the spirit of the law. Through Christ and the spirit of the law, we are no longer in bondage to sin and death under the letter of the law. Those who keep the spirit of the law will automatically satisfy the letter of the law.

Romans 7

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I think it's more likely that Enoch was the result of what is effectively an alien abduction.

He got taken up into the sky, into a crystal house with blazing portals, to meet Uriel (if memory serves), who writes all this down on him, then takes him on a tesselated walkway that glowed, made not of crystal or wood but something in between (plastic) to see God, sat on his throne. It sounds like that episode of Star Trek. So much so, in fact, that its almost beyond ridiculous.

While up there he chats to angels, sees another crystal house floating above the earth through a window, and then gets flown around the earth to check stuff out.

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin



You're right! you should check out the story behind the Urantia Book!


Angels can and much of the time do equal "aliens"

I am not the person that you think i am
i think i am something other than what i am
what i am is intangible

this thing that binds me
this thing that finds me inside
that piece inside of me is a different entity

if i could look for a second electric
eyes for the miser sizing up the cluster
phuck the rubbish disdain the blemish

shameful angel baited the rainbow
fallen mark glows in the dark
lucifer crucible ruse

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin


What about when JC ascended into heaven? Old Moses and Elijah (both of whom never "died" in the scriptures - Moses saw the promised land and went back down the hill, Aaron went back to look for him but he gone!) add to that many a year had passed since Moses went and the ascension of Jesus.
Did Moses prove that Einstein had it right all along? (space/time)

Probably not what the OP meant though. JC came into the world and long time after Enoch and so God must have changed the rules a bit.
H

I don't know if this will help with the Enoch and Jesus question.

Revelation 13:8 makes this reference to Jesus the Lamb:
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (Anti-Christ), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Makes reference to Jesus' crucifixion as from the perspective of the creation of the world)

Hebrews 9:14 states:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot ... ( Noting ETERNAL) People will ask, 'what does the death of a man 2000 years ago have anything to do with me now? Hence this is where the ETERNAL comes in.

Genesis 15:6 states:
And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Then finally Jesus said in John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (note the wording "I AM' a statement made by God to Moses, declaring who He was) Centuries later jesus is declaring to his generation who He is. Which angered them.

With all of this and then condisering Enoch, like Abraham, Enoch found favor via FAITH with God through Christ. It is mind boggling and I probably have not done it justice in making it clear.

here's my take on it....
the birth of Christ was predicted, promised, hoped for, expected long before his birth....
then he came,
and then after he had come and gone, many look back at the time he was here.

David referred to him, even though he was not during his time. Both Enoch and David knew of him. They looked forward to the time when he would arrive, just as many today look back to the time that he was...
Weather you are looking forward, or looking back, or were on earth at the time....you played a part in the story. It was a point in time, that was engineered through a prophecy to direct our thoughts, our hopes, our inspirations....OUR ENERGIES.... onto this particular point in time, this particular person.....and that energy that was directed played a role in the miracles that he and his disciples were able to do, including resurection.

Jesus didn't have to exist for david or enoch to believe in him...
they had faith in a promise of his arrival...and through that faith played a role in the promise fullfillment.

another focal point is approaching. the return of christ, 2012, ect. we all look forward to it wondering, hoping, sometimes fearing....what will all that energy that we are directing to that future point bring us?

reply to post by Havalon


Havalon, Moses did die...
Moses died in the land of Moab before the children of Israel crossed the Jordan River to go in to possess the land.

Deuteronomy 34:5 - So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

Moses was buried by the Lord and the place of his burial was kept secret from all men. As you can see, the Bible is very clear that Moses was buried.

Deuteronomy 34:6 - And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day

It is believed by many that Enoch will return to earth at the end times and die..and be resurrected to life as witnessed by millions!

But to answer the OP is difficult I'll leave that to other bible scholars around like AshleyD. Growing up in a protestant church it is my belief the answer will go something like this.. Just like there is the Old Testament and the New Testament...those born before Christ were judged by whther they were looking for his coming and by their faith in God(Yahweh)-[Enoch case]. Thus they were primarily Hebrews of old..Those born after Christ basically must believe in the life/sacrificial death for sins of any who will accept/resurrection of sinless so of God - Jesus.

Not an easy one to answer. Good post though

reply to post by BlackProjects


Thanks for that BP, (good to see 'my prescious' on your avatar)

The written word was that there were no human witnesses to his death, and the fact that his burial place was never found, then he turns up in the new testament at the ascension, gives food for thought, would you agree?

H

Havalon,
You are very right that there is mystery surrounding Moses death and in particular his burial since it was hidden and done by Angels. He like Elijah may later reappear as one of the two witness. Yeah I am a huge LOTR fan- books and movies.
BP

Originally posted by asmeone2
But why was the new covenant even needed? It seems like Enoch had already done everything that Jesus was supposed to do for us.

Enoch did not die for us or save us from eternal death. Because Enoch was taken right before the flood of Noah, many believe he represents the Christian church raptured before the tribulation. Noah represents those protected in the ark during the tribulation. The wicked people swept away during the flood represent those that will be "swept away" during the judgement after the tribulation.

But on to your original question: Prior to Jesus, anyone that died (even the godly) did not go to Heaven, the literal abode of God. They were taken to Paradise, a section of "Sheol." Only once the Messiah (Jesus) died, would they be able to enter Heaven. Jesus became the link between God and man and restored our position. So, we believe Enoch, along with other righteous Old Testament saints, went to Paradise (What many Jews refer to as "Abraham's Bosom) and after Jesus' death is now in Heaven.



[edit on 1/12/2008 by AshleyD]

AshleyD,
To add upon your post >>So, we believe Enoch, along with other righteous Old Testament saints, went to Paradise (What many Jews refer to as "Abraham's Bosom) and after Jesus' death is now in Heaven.

I have been taught that during the time following Christ's crucifixtion and prior to his resurrection he was in Paradise for those you mention in Abraham's bosum.. I am not sure Enoch went there though as has been discussed on other threads. But I guess maybe ...so I believe Paradise is empty today...maybe you can expand on Sheol as well
TX BP

The problem I see is that Enoch was not like other people or dumbed down and ignorant. In some ways he was enlightened and saw thru the lies.
In my view, Enoch was part of the elite in the first place as a messenger and program, much like the eventual Christ figure was.
Isn't most knowledge without wisdom self destructive anyway?

Just as a person may be supposedly possessed by a demon, he may than also be posessed or a host by righteousness and wisdom or what we sometimes call an angelic presence or the Holy spirit.

Many people have reported out of body or near death experiences. It's not hard to suggest that they can also be taken out of the body before death as well.

If mankind was created as an example of free will, than it also seems likely that we are also pawns in a game or program of chess by example and arguements also. Kind of like the chalk and the chalk board....but don't forget the eraser either.

Originally posted by asmeone2
WHy would GOd send his son to rescue mankind, when they have the power to do that for themselves?

Perhaps it has to do with the bottom line! Not enough people were doing it for themselves or could be righteous enough to 'walk with God', so He sent JC to quicken the process. Thats the only logical thing I can think of.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
maybe you can expand on Sheol as well

Don't quote me on this but I think the New Testament expounds on Sheol. Basically, it is divided into three parts: 1) Hell 2) Paradise 3) The outer darkness. Those are some interpretations of it.

Contrary to popular belief (not saying you believe this but many do), Jesus did not go to "Hell" for three days after His death. As in, to be tormented. He went to 1) Take those who were waiting in paradise to Heaven as we were now spiritually restored. 2) Triumph over death 3) To "minister to the imprisoned souls of Noah's day." We are never explicitly told who these souls are or what Jesus told them. Some speculate but in my opinion we'll find out for sure later.

Great answer...I applaud it

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by asmeone2
But why was the new covenant even needed? It seems like Enoch had already done everything that Jesus was supposed to do for us.

Enoch did not die for us or save us from eternal death.

I've already stated, I am refering to the fact that Enoch saved himself, not mankind!

But on to your original question: Prior to Jesus, anyone that died (even the godly) did not go to Heaven, the literal abode of God. They were taken to Paradise, a section of "Sheol." Only once the Messiah (Jesus) died, would they be able to enter Heaven. Jesus became the link between God and man and restored our position. So, we believe Enoch, along with other righteous Old Testament saints, went to Paradise (What many Jews refer to as "Abraham's Bosom) and after Jesus' death is now in Heaven.



[edit on 1/12/2008 by AshleyD]

I don't know about that. "Walked with God" seems to be as literal a presence of God as you can get. Consider, why would a blameless god walk with a human that was still sinful?

reply to post by AshleyD


THis is on a tangent, but can you shed any thoughts on the last verst? Why would Jesus minister to souls that are already in hell?

Originally posted by Dae

Originally posted by asmeone2
WHy would GOd send his son to rescue mankind, when they have the power to do that for themselves?

Perhaps it has to do with the bottom line! Not enough people were doing it for themselves or could be righteous enough to 'walk with God', so He sent JC to quicken the process. Thats the only logical thing I can think of.

I think so too, though the thing that gets me about that is that if you beleive that you need Jesus to get to heven, then a lot of people still aren't getting there!