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Jesus & Enoch: Is this a contradiction?

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posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:29 AM
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Hi, I have a question about the Bible that is really bugging me!

I am not asking this to try to discredit it, I'm genuinely curious:

In the old testement it says that Enoch was a righteous man, so much so that he walked with God and then was taken away, thus escaping death. It says that he was a human, directly decended from Adam, and thus a part of fallen mankind, so he wasn't, physically or spiritually, any different than the rest of us, but it states specifically that he was taken away because of his own righteousness.

In the new testement, however, it says that "No one comes to the father except through [Jesus]" and that man is not saved by his own actions. I don't know if there is a verse that states this specifically but I have always understood that Jesus came to free us from death.

I am having trouble reconciling these two anectdotes! Why does it say that no one can come to the father without Jesus, when Enoch had already done that? Furthermore, since Enoch was human and was able to "Walk with God" by virture of his own righteousness, doesn't this mean that the rest of us at least have the potential to do this as well? If so, what is the point of sending Jesus at all? What is the point of him dying for us, if people like Enoch, by thier own righteousness, can escape death?

So, all you Christians, please answer this one for me. And, please give logical answers, not just the "God does things that we might not understand" variety of response. Thanks!

[edit on 12-1-2008 by asmeone2]




posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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new covenant means new agreement. The arrangement changed with Jesus. In my humble opinion.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:51 AM
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Originally posted by gobildygook99
new covenant means new agreement. The arrangement changed with Jesus. In my humble opinion.


But why was the new covenant even needed? It seems like Enoch had already done everything that Jesus was supposed to do for us.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:07 AM
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I am no christian, but here is your answer.

The New Testiment obsesses on the "Jesus" life and man and being. However it wasn't his being that was what was "the way". It was the teachings.

Jesus came to preach: "The Kingdom of God is at hand".

Jesus was the "son of God and the son of Man".

You and everyone on earth is the "son of man" and in the realization and reaching out to our Creator Father does every man become a son of God.

Every being is created by the Creator.

But it is the truning over of the will of the self serving willed creature for the truer will of Our Father that is the giving yourself to our creator as a child.

When the being you know as "Jesus Christ" was born nearly 2000 years ago, this was not the point the being that is the christ was created. The Christ has always existed, but it was at that point where he robed himself in flesh to teach the world a song.

Enoch, it has been said "was a man who walked with God every day of his life", and this is the princable understanding and teaching of the kingdom of God is at hand.

Many that fantisize to call themselfs "christians" are no brothers of Jesus and no sons of God. They are fools and self rightous self willed beasts cloth in sheep's skins. Don't be fooled by their teachings.

Rather search out the truth within your self for the sake of truth if you wish to be a son to God ye son of man.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:19 AM
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Here is another way of saying it.

If you truly with an open and searching heart/soul, seek to know the truth of our creator father, God will not leave you in desire long.

If you reach out you will be taken up into the arms of God and God will put the spirit of truth over your personal spirit.

You will hear the voice of God, though you may assume it to be higher reasoning.

It is this, and the walking with this consciousness that assures your placement in the Kingdom of Heaven and it is that which brings the Kingdom Come to earth.

"Our Father that is in Heaven. YOUR Kingdom Come. YOUR WILL be done. On earth as IT IS in heaven."

Enoch, in being said to have "walked with God" already acchieved this.

Enoch now serves as one of the 24 Judges that sit around the throne of Christ.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by Incarnated
 


Thanks you for the reply, BTW I didn't mean to copy your avatar!

I am not Christian either. I should have stated that. Just wanting to get the Christians to answer because it's their book, and that is, as I see it, a pretty big plot hole.

I have always suspected that the only reason Jesus died at all was to make sure that he and his messages were remembered. Unfortunately I think a lot of people have perverted the message.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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Enoch was an ancestor of Noah, so he was taken up by God before mankind was completely corrupted the first time around and destroyed by the flood. Noah was "perfect in his generations", meaning his bloodline was the only one left that had not been corrupted by the Nephilim. All of this precedes Abram and the first Covenant.

Enoch did not redeem mankind, he only redeemed himself. Christ has existed since the very beginning, one with God. His OT manifestation is "The angel of the Lord." Christ was sent to earth as the only begotten Son of the Father, not born of Adam, to live a sinless life and redeem us all by taking our sin upon His perfect self. Through one man, Adam, sin entered the earth for us all, and through one man, Jesus Christ, fully man and fully God, sin was defeated for all who believe on Him.

It is late and I am tired, so I haven't done my best work here, but I hope you get the gist of it. Enoch didn't have the capacity to save all of mankind. Jesus Christ does, for all who believe He died so their sins can be forgiven. Enoch may return with Elijah (who was also taken up bodily) as one of the two witnesses. Or it may be Moses. But that's another story.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by Incarnated
 

I have always suspected that the only reason Jesus died at all was to make sure that he and his messages were remembered. Unfortunately I think a lot of people have perverted the message.


At the origin of the beginning of mankind, there was a planetary rebelion of the spirit prince that was over this world as a controler. This spirit prince is basicly known as "the devil".

Jesus Died on the cross as a last part of a "test" to see if the son of God would be willing to lay down his life through the belief of this "voice in a man's head" that was our God. by passing the test, it was given to Jesus the power to remove the devil from spiritual power around mankind. This happened at the pentcost.

Don't hold distaste for "Christians" as they are a mixture of people, a good majority of them being blind and stupid monkeys, but this doesn't mean the lot of them are not our brothers.

It is they simply fear being found wrong so badly that they are not willing to do the work to truly be found rightous in the eye of God. Term being "lukewarm".

As the Jews rejected, as a group, Jesus. The christians, as a group, reject the second coming. Life it would seem is not without a sense of Irony.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:33 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Enoch did not redeem mankind, he only redeemed himself. Christ has existed since the very beginning, one with God.


If Enoch redeemed himself, though, that contradicts what Jesus said about "there is only one way to the father!" My big question is, why did Jesus come to save everyone if, as it is shown by Enoch, it is possible for humans to redeem themselves?



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by Incarnated

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by Incarnated
 

I have always suspected that the only reason Jesus died at all was to make sure that he and his messages were remembered. Unfortunately I think a lot of people have perverted the message.


Jesus Died on the cross as a last part of a "test" to see if the son of God would be willing to lay down his life through the belief of this "voice in a man's head" that was our God. by passing the test, it was given to Jesus the power to remove the devil from spiritual power around mankind. This happened at the pentcost.


Curious, what is your source for this?


Originally posted by Incarnated
Don't hold distaste for "Christians" as they are a mixture of people, a good majority of them being blind and stupid monkeys, but this doesn't mean the lot of them are not our brothers.

It is they simply fear being found wrong so badly that they are not willing to do the work to truly be found rightous in the eye of God. Term being "lukewarm".


I don't distaset them, as a group, but I do distaste the attitude and actions of most of them, but not all. I was raised to be a Christian but dsitanced myself from that as i became more spiritual. I wanted to be with God but not confine my service to him to the constraints of any one religion. I do not disbeleive in Jesus but I have trouble accepting it fully because I do not understand the details of what happened.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:39 AM
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There is no contradiction. During Enoch's time, Christ had not yet manifested in the flesh. Enoch, in walking with God, walked also with the angel of the Lord, and hence did fulfill the only way to the father.

Again, it is late and I am tired, but I think you can see what I am saying.



[edit on 12-1-2008 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Enoch did not redeem mankind, he only redeemed himself. Christ has existed since the very beginning, one with God.


If Enoch redeemed himself, though, that contradicts what Jesus said about "there is only one way to the father!" My big question is, why did Jesus come to save everyone if, as it is shown by Enoch, it is possible for humans to redeem themselves?


At that time the "devil" was still sudo planetary prince. It was near imposable for the average man to achieve understandings in order so that he might be free.

By the Christ's life and death, the planet's spirit was changed to the holy spirit, the spirit of truth, and now mankind has the ability to see things in truth.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
There is no contradiction. During Enoch's time, Christ had not yet manifested in the flesh. Enoch in walking with God, walked also with the angel of the Lord, and hence did fulfill the only way to the father.

Again, it is late and I am tired, but I think you can see what I am saying.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by Icarus Rising]


I think you are saying that the Angel of the Lord served the same purpose as Jesus? That confuses me more, because if the Angel was there, why was it replaced with Jesus?



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:43 AM
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Originally posted by Incarnated

Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Enoch did not redeem mankind, he only redeemed himself. Christ has existed since the very beginning, one with God.


If Enoch redeemed himself, though, that contradicts what Jesus said about "there is only one way to the father!" My big question is, why did Jesus come to save everyone if, as it is shown by Enoch, it is possible for humans to redeem themselves?


At that time the "devil" was still sudo planetary prince. It was near imposable for the average man to achieve understandings in order so that he might be free.

By the Christ's life and death, the planet's spirit was changed to the holy spirit, the spirit of truth, and now mankind has the ability to see things in truth.


I agree with you. I think that "religion" got in the way of this though, as some men tried to use this to gain power. I'm happy to see that a lot of people seem to be stepping outside of this paradigm.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:48 AM
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There was no replacement. There has always been the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ, the angel of the Lord), and God the Spirit. Separate and One. The inexplicable, supernatural, living God of Creation.

"Let Us make man in Our image."

The angel of the Lord, God the Son, came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ to redeem us from our sins. Enoch didn't do it, nor could he.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:52 AM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
I agree with you. I think that "religion" got in the way of this though, as some men tried to use this to gain power. I'm happy to see that a lot of people seem to be stepping outside of this paradigm.


Religion getting int he way of this, is only one way of understanding or looking at it.

You, me, them, us, people, we all have diffrent mental abilities, and these mental abilities range from inteligents, mechanical skills and even down and up to abilities to access "consciounesses". Something that might be within your conscious mind, is in the unconscious mind state of another human.

To think we all think alike isn't to see the truth nor is it to think at all.

Only in the realization that we all have diffrent perspective, and diffrent takes, and in realizing your own personal self serving biases, can you then think in several diffrent ways on the same topic.

Where am I going with this. They are not you. They are deffently not me.

Some minds, to acchieve (accept) understandings need be presented these things in a way that makes the topic into bitesize pieces.

I take big bites. My big bites might choke another if they tryed eating as I do.

Religion is a dance to understand basic consepts of God. It's the fools selfrigousness of a particualr religion or dogmatic aspect that is "Wrong".



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:56 AM
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In the basic consept.

To each their own.


You shouldn't consern yourself with them anyway.


Even "Jesus" knew this. Jesus came to teach, but he taught and let people take what they could take as they could take it.

It is the act of speaking that I myself am responcable for. I speak my words. The readers of these words will percieve these words however the reader's biased mind wills to take these words. I am not in control of that, nor could I be.

do you understand?

To each their own. You can't prove nothing to noone. You can't help anyone. You can only offer up what it is you speak about. It is up to THEM to take, reject, twist, misunderstand or understand your words.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
There was no replacement. There has always been the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ, the angel of the Lord), and God the Spirit. Separate and One. The inexplicable, supernatural, living God of Creation.

"Let Us make man in Our image."

The angel of the Lord, God the Son, came to earth in the form of Jesus Christ to redeem us from our sins. Enoch didn't do it, nor could he.

[edit on 12-1-2008 by Icarus Rising]


I disagree with you, here. I do not think that Jesus and the Angel of the Lord are the same thing, because if that were true, why are they given such differnt names? "Angel" and "Son" are not interchangable terms. I can see the Angel being aligned with the Holy Spirit, but not with the Son.

I feel we are dancing around the question. I am not implying that Enoch could have saved humanity. I am saying that he is righteous enough to save himself. Since he was human, that means that every human could have been rigtheous enough to save himself. Whether or not he chose to is not the issue: I am talkign about the fact that it could be done.

I see a contradiction here because Jesus came because this self-redeeming was supposed to be impossible. WHy would GOd send his son to rescue mankind, when they have the power to do that for themselves?



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 02:00 AM
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reply to post by Incarnated
 



Again I agree. I had a major point of contention with the idea of 'evangelizing.' I felt like the whole concept only created spiritual drones.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 02:07 AM
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Because of the sin nature of man since the fall.

We can choose to either stand on our own works, or accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. Since we are all sinners, the chance of our own works getting us into heaven are slim and none, and slim left town.



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