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Originally posted by Becker44
If you could afford to, I would bet you'd like to take 50 or 60 select posters from this board on your next trip huh?
Only question: Are you Jewish?
Originally posted by interestedalways
It must have been awesome being there during the holidays!
Originally posted by Tinhatman
It's all point of view really,
A friend of mine, a Southern Baptist Zionist pro-Israeli American when she left here, went there for the New Year as well. She stayed in Tel-aviv mostly but visited Bethlehem for New Years Day. Her experience was a polar opposite. Before she went there she had no idea that the Israelis had shut down the Gaza strip (no food no fuel) and were not even allowing Palestinean children to leave Gaza even for the sake of medical help.
She did not know that most of the aid money that was sent to Palestine from the US was mostly stolen by corrupt Palestinean leadership
So what you saw as uncivilised or barbaric, she saw as the result of economic sanctions and imprisonment (by your own account it was a prison). How can people become civilized when they are not allowed to trade freely with their neighbours or the outside world? Have you ever been inside a prison? Is it civilized?
Truly, there are rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza on a daily basis. You must ask yourself this, If you were watching your family starve because a foreign country had decided that your country was not allowed to have food, wouldn't you want to shoot somebody too?
There are also constant sniper attacks from the Israeli watchtowers that overlook the Palestinien areas. A young man carrying a guitar case was shot and wounded by Israeli sharpshooters while she was there. You probably saw that on the news on the Palestinean side I am sure. Shot for carrying a guitar! Both sides attack each other constantly. The difference is that the Israelis really do oppress the Palestineans and they really do cut off food and money from outside sources and they really do get support from the US government. 30BN USD annually for Israel from the United States. That's $4,222 per Israeli a year. From tax payer money. Then they use it to build concrete walls around the Palestineans and deny the Gazans the abilty to recieve food or medical care solely based on the government they elected.
So my friend, the Southern Baptist Pro-Israel Zionist, went to Israel for 3 weeks. She came back trying to spread the truth to her friends and family about the humanitarian crisis that Israeli policy is causing over there (she is still a Christian and real Christians care). She does not think that Israel should be wiped out, she just thinks that intentionally starving people is wrong. The point being though is that once she viewed the same things you viewed she did not blame the powerless who are suffering. She has in fact begun to seek help from the moderate Israelis she has met (apparently most Israelis and American Jews are deeply concerned over what is being done on their name) and has tried to open the eyes of her fellow "Christian's" who somehow have the idea that starving a child is ok because one of his neighbours launches a homemade rocket.
The leadership on both sides have caused this problem to be much worse then it should be and US intervention has prolonged and expanded the troubles, in my humble opinion.
Not too bright. Nobody is starving over there and there is no humanitarian crisis.
Originally posted by Unit541
reply to post by Skyfloating
Excellent post, and I'd agree that it's refreshing to have some first hand perspective on this topic. But in my opinion, while I cannot question your experience, I feel that your conveyance of is flawed in logic and reasoning. Based on your report, I get the idea that you also feel that poor, "inner-city" areas of this country are occupied by a "lesser" people. You (accurately) point out the results of the upper class Palestinians' exodus leaving behind a society that cannot, or will not, "westernize" their homeland for the benefit of those who don't want to feel so far from home when they visit. Cleanliness, infrastructure, and societal order all require resources to achieve nationally. The absence of said resources tend to make it difficult to achieve these goals on a national scale. So I ask, why is this 'upper class' leaving? Could it have anything to do with Israel?
Remember, the Palestinians require water to sustain as well. Are you postulating that because Israel, as a country and a society, is a wealthier establishment that they are more entitled to something as fundamental to life as water than the Palestinians? How different do you think Palestinian society would be without the various hardships imposed by the Israelis?
Please understand, I'm not being combative here. Like you were, I'm decidedly neutral on the subject. As Tinhatman mentioned, and your original post supports, it's all a matter of perspective.
[edit on 1/12/2008 by Unit541]
Originally posted by Skyfloating
Again, its not about upper-class, lower-class, but the question of where all the "evil israelis" and "good palestinians" I have read about here on ATS are. What an unlucky coincidence that I didnt meet any (ok, ok, a few palestinians I talked to were ok).
Now, on to how israel and palestine are portrayed in the news: I saw a lot of beauty and progress over there...something which I dont recall EVER having seen on CNN when reporting about the area.
Originally posted by Tinhatman
I believe Israel should exist as a state and has every right to defend itself, I just happen to think that the Palestineans too have the right to exist and defend themselves. Cooler heads on both sides must prevail.