Excited...just turned in my petition

Originally posted by II HAL II
If your telling me the people at the bottom of the run in Masonry know what the leading figures are doing day to day then say so, you can't because you don't know.

An interesting premise ... but the question is: who do you think are the 'leading figures' of Masonry? Every Mason I know already knows who the leading figures are, and what they do day-to-day isn't all that relevant.

Also... I never said I know what "really is going on" all I did is post a speech by JFK who said secret societies are repugnant.. and I agree.

Then you picked the wrong speech to make your point with; what JFK was saying isn't what you're saying ... and that you agree with him is, well, confusing.

The Masons here seem to be very defensive of things that haven't been said.. if you are true Masons 1. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ON AN INTERNET FORUM.

Umm...why not? I'm unsure as to where you get your information. You've already said that you never said that you know what "really is going on" so - based on that statement, how can you say that Masons shouldn't be on an internet forum? What is your basis for that?

2. YOU ARE ATTACKING A PERSON FOR THINGS THAT HAVEN'T BEEN SAID.

Again: no. No one is attacking you. You're being called to task for things that you have said.

So tell me what are the main points of Masonry?

While I can't speak for Masonry, the thrust of the organization - the 'points' - are morality and brotherly love. The virtue of Freemasonry is that it brings men together in harmony, rather than driving them apart through conflict.

If you feel that that is a bad thing ... well, 'seek help' is all the advice I can offer you at this time.

And to 'Meat'... the link I posted was not a speech about Masonry but it's content can be applied to Masonry.

If you're twisted enough, anything can be applied to anything. I'm sure that - like you - there are others out there can can apply the ingredients of a box of Cheerios to Freemasonry and believe that it's relevant. Others can get chocolate on their peanut butter and see a Masonic conspiracy. I'll bet that there are even others out there can can play Pink Floyd's Enpty Spaces backwards and think they're geniuses for finding a secret backwards message.

So ... that you can find "relevant content" in a speech - that was clearly not about what you think it was about - only shows that you're holdng on too tight there, Cougar, and you've lost the edge. We're going to have to send Maverick and Goose to Top Gun instead.

Your pal,
Meat.

Reply to LightinDark

Or perhaps I do know there are many people here who claim to be Masons of all rank but I dont see why that changes anything. I have not said anything is going on, for the third time, I have posted a speech saying secret societies are repugnant.

I have NOT said you run the world, I have not said you killed JFK and I have not said you live on the moon.

But even IF there were some big secret.. would it be revealed by a top Mason??? on ATS??? No.. this argument doesn't stand up.

"This sort of hasty generalization fallacy does not serve as an answer. Every organization does indeed have a hierarchy, but it is absolutely false that every organization keeps secrets from the people at the "bottom." - May I suggest in the nicest possible way that you dont understand the political and corporate world we live in then.. and it's worse when its a secret society.

"Do you have any evidence that says masons aren't allowed for some reason to post on an internet forum?" - Well Yes of course -

INTERNET - FORUMS AND ‘CHAT ROOMS’
It has been brought to the notice of the Board that some Brethren are using the
internet not only to make contact with other Freemasons, which may be
unexceptionable, but also as a means of seeking guidance on questions which should
properly be addressed to their Provincial or District Grand Secretaries, from whom
authoritative answers are available. Such enquiries frequently elicit a variety of
different answers (of which many are, in the nature of things, likely to be wrong) and
the Board considers that directing questions on protocol and similar matters to those
participating in an internet forum is inappropriate both for that reason and because of
the nature of the subject-matter involved.
(Extract from Report of Board of General Purposes, adopted 13 March, 2002.)

This was taken from - INFORMATION FOR THE
GUIDANCE OF
MEMBERS OF THE CRAFT

Does this mean I know more about masonry than those posting here, probably not but it makes you think.

"Your attempt to use the JFK speech failed. As others have pointed out, it is widely known that JFK was referring to the secret way press was handled in communist countries. If you read the entire speech or the context, you would see that. But I know it's much easier to pull quotes out of context from conspiracy sites." - I know the speech thanks and as I said before I know its not about Masonry... its content can by applied to Masonry by the very first line... secret societies are repugnant... step away from that fact all you want but its easy to see if you open your eyes.

The "main points" of masonry are friendship, morality, and brotherly love. Whether or not you want to join because of them does no matter - masonry is not for everyone and given your responses here, I would say not for you. - I would say that too!

I didn't want a forum war with the MASONS but assuming I know nothing I leave you with this, the reason I wanted you to post the point of Masonry -

It is absurd to think that a vast organization like Masonry was ordained merely to teach to grown-up men of the world the symbolical meaning of a few simple builders' tools, or to impress upon us such elementary virtues as temperance and justice:—the children in every village school are taught such things; or to enforce such simple principles of morals as brotherly love, which every church and every religion teaches; or as relief, which is practised quite as much by non-Masons as by us; or of truth, which every infant learns upon its mother's knee. There is surely, too, no need for us to join a secret society to be taught that the volume of the Sacred Law is a fountain of truth and instruction; or to go through the great and elaborate ceremony of the third degree merely to learn that we have each to die. The Craft whose work we are taught to honour with the name of a "science," a "royal art," has surely some larger end in view.

[edit on 17-1-2008 by II HAL II]

reply to post by II HAL II


HAL,

Incorrect. You have posted an expert from a speech that talks about how secrecy in government and the press is a bad thing. No one disagrees. No matter how much you want JFK to be talking about your perceived "secret societies," it just isn't reality.

You also proclaim to tell us how there is some unseen cabal of masons that none of the masons actually know about - yet somehow you do . When you are asked for proof or asked to tell us how you know it when no one else does, you deny you ever said it. It is kind of comical. Then you tell us everyone on here only "claims" to be a mason, inferring that we are all making it up. This is also amusing, why would anyone (nonetheless a handful of people) make something like that up? It's not like getting in is difficult.

As for the supposed "proof" you offered that masons can't talk on the internet

1) Did you actually read what you copied and pasted? And I notice you don't quote the source - for good reason - as it would show you were taking something completely out of context. Even out of context it doesn't say what you claim. It says members should not be asking GL related questions to online discussion forums. Where is anyone doing this?

2) Whatever Grand Lodge stated this only impacts the members of that grand lodge. If you had any sort of knowledge about masonry, you would know this. But you don't. All you've got is conspiracy theories with no evidence. Find me 50 quotes from each of the US Grand Lodges all saying masons may not _discuss_ or _defend_ the fraternity online, and I'll quit doing it right now. Or just find one from the Grand Lodge of North Carolina, for me. All you've got now is a quote from a grand lodge (I presume) telling its members not to ask procedural questions online. No one is doing this. Nice attempt to create a straw man argument.

It is absurd to think that a vast organization like Masonry was ordained merely to teach to grown-up men of the world the symbolical meaning of a few simple builders' tools, or to impress upon us such elementary virtues as temperance and justice:—the children in every village school are taught such things; or to enforce such simple principles of morals as brotherly love, which every church and every religion teaches; or as relief, which is practised quite as much by non-Masons as by us; or of truth, which every infant learns upon its mother's knee. There is surely, too, no need for us to join a secret society to be taught that the volume of the Sacred Law is a fountain of truth and instruction; or to go through the great and elaborate ceremony of the third degree merely to learn that we have each to die. The Craft whose work we are taught to honour with the name of a "science," a "royal art," has surely some larger end in view.

It is absurd to think that a international and highly decentralized organization like Masonry was ordained to be involved in some global vast conspiracy. You statements above show you have a laughably pathetic knowledge about masonry. As a philosopher by training, the lessons taught about masonic values are very complex. Anyone who even calls "truth" a simple principle is so simplistic it boggles the mind. Perhaps you should study philosophy some more, and you would learn that you are just completely wrong. There is no huge conspiracy, no matter how bad you want one.

More of the same....."evidence" from google, and absolutely no evidence for most of what you claim. The arguments fall like the house of cards they are.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


No matter how much you want JFK to be talking about your perceived "secret societies," it just isn't reality
- In your eyes and your not the autority.. also the fact he says secret societies is a clue to my perceived "secret societies".

You also proclaim to tell us how there is some unseen cabal of masons that none of the masons actually know about - yet somehow you do . When you are asked for proof or asked to tell us how you know it when no one else does, you deny you ever said it. It is kind of comical
- No I didn't deny it.. thats why I explained organisations... please..

Then you tell us everyone on here only "claims" to be a mason, inferring that we are all making it up. This is also amusing
- Again No I didnt say EVERYONE, have a look.

1) Did you actually read what you copied and pasted? And I notice you don't quote the source - for good reason - as it would show you were taking something completely out of context. Even out of context it doesn't say what you claim. It says members should not be asking GL related questions to online discussion forums. Where is anyone doing this?
- yes i did read it and I'm afraid your wrong on every point above.. I quoted the source but if you want I can provide a link.. this will infact show its completely in context.. how can you even say that? It does say what I claim because I asked a masonic question and you answered just like many threads here.

2) Whatever Grand Lodge stated this only impacts the members of that grand lodge. If you had any sort of knowledge about masonry, you would know this. But you don't. All you've got is conspiracy theories with no evidence. Find me 50 quotes from each of the US Grand Lodges all saying masons may not _discuss_ or _defend_ the fraternity online, and I'll quit doing it right now. Or just find one from the Grand Lodge of North Carolina, for me. All you've got now is a quote from a grand lodge (I presume) telling its members not to ask procedural questions online. No one is doing this. Nice attempt to create a straw man argument.
- Again wrong its not just for one lodge it's for England, Scotland and Ireland where Maonsry started I think.

It is absurd to think that a international and highly decentralized organization like Masonry was ordained to be involved in some global vast conspiracy. You statements above show you have a laughably pathetic knowledge about masonry. As a philosopher by training, the lessons taught about masonic values are very complex. Anyone who even calls "truth" a simple principle is so simplistic it boggles the mind. Perhaps you should study philosophy some more, and you would learn that you are just completely wrong. There is no huge conspiracy, no matter how bad you want one
- Perhaps you should study Masonry some more as the quote you are referring to was written by a one . I will let you find out for yourself.



[edit on 17-1-2008 by II HAL II]

reply to post by II HAL II


Actually, not in my eyes. In everyones eyes...except yours, and other people who refuse to actually read the entire thing.

You continue to show you have nothing, and show a failure to understand anything about masonry. A complete failure. You've quoted a source that says a particular GL has asked its members not to ask GL procedural questions on the internet. This is a straw man argument, because no one is doing this or suggsted it should be done. You then show you have no idea what you are talking about because you claim it covers a lodges in ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, AND IRELAND! You have absolutely no idea how the structure of masonry works, and yet claim to be an expert.

I would suggest you actually read about masonry before googling and copying and pasting from conspiracy websites.

Regardless of what spin you put on it, Masonry is a society (organization) that has allowed itself to become shrouded in secrecy.. I'm am by no means an expert, but attended many many Masonic events as a child and youg person, my father was a Scottish Rite Mason (could not even begin to tell you what level,rank etc..), my mother was a member of the Eastern Star Order, a matron I believe, apologies I was young.

But to say there is no secrecy is a bit a stretch, and y'all know it...it's more than likely not the dark secrecy that some folks would love for all to believe (conspiracies abound everywhere), but to say thats it's all out in the open is disingenuous...

In my opinion, the Masons and by extension Eastern Star Order are not on the same level with say the Rotary club, or the local Moose lodge, the Masonic tradition by my memory is far more steeped in religous overtones and ceremony...the organizations themselves have made use of this mysticism to their own benifit.

So while the local Moose lodge or VFW post and the Masons might have alot of community involvement in common...I thinks it's a bit far fetched to say the Masons don't play on the veil of secrecy!

my2cents

Originally posted by II HAL II
assuming I know nothing

I have to stop you there. From all the posts on this thread, rest assured that no one here assumes you know nothing. You make abundantly clear that your knowledge is remarkably limited all by yourself.

Your quote about the UGLE - much like the JFK speech - doesn't reinforce your argument at all; it's pretty clear what it says to anyone who reads it.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
reply to post by II HAL II

 

Actually, not in my eyes. In everyones eyes...except yours, and other people who refuse to actually read the entire thing.

You continue to show you have nothing, and show a failure to understand anything about masonry. A complete failure. You've quoted a source that says a particular GL has asked its members not to ask GL procedural questions on the internet. This is a straw man argument, because no one is doing this or suggsted it should be done. You then show you have no idea what you are talking about because you claim it covers a lodges in ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, AND IRELAND! You have absolutely no idea how the structure of masonry works, and yet claim to be an expert.

I would suggest you actually read about masonry before googling and copying and pasting from conspiracy websites.

So you speak for everyone??

As I said the source is not for one GL and it doesn't say PROCEDURAL questions it says "seeking guidance on questions" which has happened.

I dont claim to be an expert.

All my info has come from official masonry sources.. every bit.. so I have read about Masonry thanks... no conspiracy websites here... sorry ATS.

www.ugle.org.uk...

I like this bit -

MASONIC SECRETS
The Board considers that it may be opportune to remind Brethren of the scope of
Masonic ‘secrecy’, so that in explaining Freemasonry to their families and friends
they may know what they may and may not discuss.



Ok I'm done.

I myself am interested in becoming a mason but it claims that a man must believe in a Supreme Being and have some form of religion. Now I do believe in a Supreme Being but I have no religion. Will that be a factor in getting accepted? Also congratulations.

reply to post by PontiacWarrior


Perhaps your a deist? .. You do not have to belong to an organized religion, but you must recognize a Supreme Being.

When they question you in the interviews, they will ask you if you believe in God.. since you believe in the Supreme Being, you do, so say yes, and nothing more. It is not their business to peer into your religious life, the question is do you believe in God, and nothing more. Essentially your perfectly eligible to be a Mason, so long as your in good standing with the community (no felonies) and your a male.

Best of luck if you continue on, keep us posted.

I just sent in my information to be contacted by my local lodge. tomorrow I am off work and the lodge is having their meeting, I was hoping to take a ride to talk to a few of the men. I believe the Masons do have secrets but not the evil things I generally hear or see on the internet. I am into mysticism and symbolism and I believe that the Masons believe you should have to work for your quest of light and that the 'secrets' should not be told to just anyone, but that only those willingly seeking the light shall find the answers.

reply to post by deadbang


I believe the secrecy is to only those who do not wish to seek the answers. As far as a secret society? No, its not really, as it does not conceal its existence or purposes.

reply to post by II HAL II


Actually, when it comes to very routine and ordinary masonic practices (like decentralization) - yes, I can safely speak for everyone when I say your wrong. You should read what you write, guidence on questions which "should be addressed to District Grand Secretaries" - it is quite obvious this means procedural questions. Or are you now going to tell me that any question I ever have as to go straight to a district secretary?

And your sources are all from the UGLE, oh really? Then do show us that UGLE document which says that there is a secret level of masonry that none of the "regular" masons know about.

reply to post by PontiacWarrior



My gut feeling is that they want you not to believe in any sort of organized religion anyway, so you should be perfect for them. They'll probably preach alot about dogma and fear so be ready for that. Just a hunch.

reply to post by spirit7


Preach about dogma and fear? I think not. I have done quite a bit of research and homework on the masons so I know what to expect. Why would you get fear from?

Originally posted by spirit7
They'll probably preach alot about dogma and fear so be ready for that. Just a hunch.

I was under the impression that you had now decided to approach Masonry with a unbiased opinion but you are reverting to the same disturbing rhetoric. How did you arrive at the conclusion that there is preaching in Masonry when we are not a religious insititution?

reply to post by PontiacWarrior


The freemasons that I know talk about how religion has dogma and it's dogma creates fear. It's also the general feeling that I get from the freemasons that are on this board. IMO, the feeling that I get is that their goal is to get you away from organized religion, but then again the scholars on here will probably say that I should think rather then feel.

If you get a chance and you have either cinemax or starz then watch the movie Dogma if you don't mind a lot of cussing. I thought it was alright and pretty funny, considering one of my favorite actors Matt Daemon was in it. Unless you already seen it.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I am, but I still have my pre-conceived notions. I'm not intending to bash, just continuing on. Sorry if I came off that way. As I've been told before, "It's certainly my perception". Tell me, is it possible to get shunned from your organization if I ever broke an oath or a secret? I may or may not decide to try and join, not sure at this point. My father-in-law is a good man and he means well. I asked him to go see the new movie "Expelled" recently. It looks pretty good.

reply to post by spirit7


This is bordering on comical.

You say:
"I'm going to approach this in an unbiased way."

-- Thoughtful discussion from masons and non-masons ensues, showing you one of your preconceived notion is wrong. --

Days later, you insert some baiting point which has _specifically_ been disproved based on your previously debunked preconceived notion. This is pointed out to you, yet you ignore it and the cycle starts again. This happens every time, without fail. I am not convinced you are not an anti-mason troll. In fact, the longer this goes on the more it seems to suggest you are.

Originally posted by spirit7
reply to post by PontiacWarrior

 

The freemasons that I know talk about how religion has dogma and it's dogma creates fear. It's also the general feeling that I get from the freemasons that are on this board. IMO, the feeling that I get is that their goal is to get you away from organized religion, but then again the scholars on here will probably say that I should think rather then feel.

And this is a specific example of the above. I, a freemason on this board, AM GOING TO BE DOING AN ENTIRE PHD IN RELIGION. I have, in numerous threads, defended all religion, and I have even said that RELIGION IS A BEAUTIFUL EXPRESSION OF THE HUMAN CONDITION. I am just about as pro-religion as you will ever find anyone. I love religion. I study religion. I find it fascinating, and beautiful. Everyone knows this. You know this. Yet you continue to say that "masons on this board hate organized religion."

I feel like I'm bashing my head against the wall.