I see the light!

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by jmdewey60
No one who I have ever talked to, in person, has ever told me that they do not believe that God answers prayer. They may have not had a particular prayer answered to their own likeing. I am amazed that you would find that taking a stance, that God does not answer prayer, appealing. I have personaly seen prayers answered in the most emmediate and substantive way possible.

Same here, no amount of reading would negate what actually happened to me and those around me. It's like typing "These aren't really words, you can't read this".

That, my friends, is the power of coincidence. I prayed constantly when I was a practicing Christian and every once in a while, one of the things I prayed for would come true. The same thing happens to everyone that prays, because if you pray enough, eventually something you pray for is going to coincidentally happen. Just like if you pray for rain or sunshine, eventually that's going to come to pass. That doesn't mean that God heard your prayer and actually did it for you.

Originally posted by Garnet


If they didn't have a proper understanding of God then why would God let those improper understandings be put into the Bible?

Why do you think Jesus was sent? The bible wasn't made until hunderds of years after Jesus died and disciples died. We get Paul's letters, but we don't get the responses to Paul's letters from Peter or any orginal disciple on if his views were proper or not. The Roman government used his letters to make it okay for the OT to be in the bible. If Jesus really wanted there to be a bible then he and his disciples would've made one. The disciples never taught the OT, just what Jesus taught. Jesus was a Kabbalist, but you don't see the churches teaching about it. The bible was designed to control people by people who craved power.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

congratulations on your travel. i would suggest that you be careful
in where you decide to end your search. you are sounding like you
may not believe in the power of god. if thats your choice then so be
it, but also know that i believe god accepts you from whatever route you
choose to get there. again, it is my belief god is so great that he/she/it
will be whomever you wish as long as you make an honest attempt
to get there. i completly dismiss the thought that unless you go a certain
route you are doomed to fire and brimstone. personally, i believe
my best way to reach is directly, through no one. it works great for
me. good luck in your search. it is much more than coincidence you
were born. you have a mission on this earth. your mission is to find
out what it is, and to complete your mission post haste.

Originally posted by Shawn B.

Originally posted by Garnet


If they didn't have a proper understanding of God then why would God let those improper understandings be put into the Bible?

Why do you think Jesus was sent? The bible wasn't made until hunderds of years after Jesus died and disciple died. We get Paul's letters, but we don't get the responses to Paul's letters from Peter or any orginal disciple on if his views were proper or not. The Roman government used his letters to make it okay for the OT to be in the bible. If Jesus really wanted there to be a bible then he and his disciples would've made one. The disciples never taught the OT just what Jesus taught. Jesus was a Kabbalist, but you don't see the churches teaching about it. The bible was designed to control people by people who craved power.

Oh, wait... You're one of those people who thinks that God didn't write the OT and that the it doesn't mean anything because Jesus supposedly canceled all of it out, aren't you? That would all be well and good except for this:

In 1 Thessalonians 2:13 the Bible says:
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.

In 2 Peter 1:20-21 the Bible says:
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Garnet]

Originally posted by Garnet


Well now I am just confused. For the record: I don't think God or Jesus had anything to do with the Bible; I think a bunch of heathens wrote it and passed it along as God's word. I would like to know where you get the idea that Jesus influenced the New Testament but did not want anything to do with the Old Testament; I haven't heard anyone say that before.

Jesus went out to the desert for 40 days and 40 nights to here what God was saying, God was telling him the truth not the teachers of the "word" and not a specific book. When he came back he spoke in parables, because this is one way God talks to us and he wanted to show us this. Not all of the new testament. If you look to God inside yourself and outside yourself with love and goodness you can tell whats the truth and what isn't.

Originally posted by Garnet


Oh, wait... You're one of those people who thinks that God didn't write the OT and that the it doesn't mean anything because Jesus supposedly canceled all of it out, aren't you? That would all be well and good except for this:

In 1 Thessalonians 2:13 the Bible says:
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.

In 2 Peter 1:20-21 the Bible says:
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Garnet]

See, Jesus isn't saying that though.

Jesus is quoted as saying this though:
'No-one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. If he does, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. And no-one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.' (Mark 2:21–22)

Why would anyone take the teachings of the people who killed Jesus, his disciples and a ton of his followers as how is suppossed to go? The same people who crave power and control are the same ones ssaying to trust them that they got it right. Why would anyone trust them?

If a person does't believe Jesus is the Son of God, then there isn't much point in trying to discern what is "old" in the Old Testament and what is "new" in the New Testament. I think some posts already address the comparison well, but for those seeking a different approach...

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17

What does it mean to fulfill rather than cancel out?

"He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." - Matthew 5:17

What was it they wrote about?

"But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'" - John 15:25

God speaking here: "I will not acquit the guilty." - Exodus 23:7

or "Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished" - Exodus 34:7

Who is guilty?

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," - Romans 3:23

Uh oh. We're guilty, we need to be punished. Is there any way to be saved from punishment?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

So if God punishes sin and we're sinners, how are we saved?

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all." - Isaiah 53:6

Oh I get it, Jesus paid the debt for us. When Jesus died on the cross, the word recorded in Greek is "Tetelestai" which was translated "it is finished" (John 19:30) but what many people don't realize is that the word is a financial term that also means "the debt is paid in full"

"He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the desert as a scapegoat." - Leviticus 16:8

Jesus was the sacrifice for the sin offering. Those who believe are the ones let go.

Old Testament + New Testament = whole story.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by saint4God]

what garnet said in the first post, about religion being made is exactly how I feel. All though I'm a hindu myself, religion does seem fake to me an so do alot of other things....

Originally posted by saint4God

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." - Matthew 5:17

Can you prove that what is in the OT is the law and what the prophets said? If they had it right then why didn't Jesus just say carry on with your bussiness and keep doing what your doing, instead of teaching things that went against what they thought the law was? See, what every person needs to do in life is ask themselves, do I worship a book or God and do I listen to what god tells me or what people who worship a book tells me.

Originally posted by mrsdudara
reply to post by Garnet

 

Christianity has been more about controll since the very begining.

Control. Exactly. And just look at all the counties fighting in the name of their "true" gods. And everybody is so right. Societys have been controlled time after time by planting the fear of "hell" to people. Here is heaven, theres hell, Make your choice and dont forget to contribute. Money talks and BS walks.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Jacks56
Please show me where the bible advocates religion?

Sure. There's two things to keep in mind.

One is the definition of what religion is as aforementioned:

"the service and worship of God or the supernatural" and "commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance".

We must ask ourselves, does the Bible ask us to worship and live in the services of God? Are we to make a commitment or devotion to our religious faith with God? Are we to observe that which God instructs us to do?

And the part you're more likely to be interested in, Biblical quotes:

"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God." - 1 Timothy 5:4

That scripture uses the Greek word "eusebeo" which means to practice piety and in this context means to "support or show respect towards your parents." I understand where you're going but I don't think this particular scripture supports my original question.

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27

In this instance, yes, I can see how this is a form of worship to God.

Originally posted by Jacks56
I do not disassociate with the Bible.

I don't think any believer intentionally does, but all of us do from time to time. Try as we may we'll fall short because we're to "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect". I didn't mean this to be as heavy of a prodding as it may have seemed.

Fair enough. I should say, I do not intentionally disassociate with the Bible. I am fairly young in my belief and there is much to be revealed but you are quite right, I continually fall short of the mark.

Originally posted by Jacks56
However, I do disassociate with the numerous doctrines of man.

If they do not align with God's instructions, I can understand. The Bible is an excellent litmus test for that. Before blanketing/judging all churches, organizations or groups as "bad religion", consider the possibility (and dare I say fact) that are are many who do hold the Bible as the book of practice.

I do believe they hold the Bible as the basic foundation, or the cornerstone, but then they add to it. As an example, many Southern Baptist churches believe is it wrong to drink any alcohol or to dance. Paul tells Timothy "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments." 1 Timothy 5:23

In 2 Samuel 6:14 "And David was dancing before the Lord with all his might.."

So, on what pretense, did the Southern Baptists decide that these things were unholy? Was it based on another scripture or was it their decision as a collective organization?

Similar holds true to in Catholicism. The Catholic church teaches the need to confess to the priest to be absolved of our sins yet the book of John tells me I can go straight to the Father, that Jesus is our mediator. What about the belief in the Catholic church that the birth of Mary was an immaculate conception? There is no scripture to sustain that claim, but they feel it's implied.

Sorry, I don't mean to ram these things at you. My point is, the unprotected truth often times is manipulated and twisted depending upon the desires or needs at hand. This is where my distrust of organized religion comes in. All that being said, I do attend an organized church, serve in that church and love that church. However, I test all things through the lens of scripture lest I fall victim to man's deceit.

I very much appreciate your time and explanation.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by saint4God]

Saint4God,

My apologies on the way the text was quoted. I obviously have not mastered that skill in quoting various text in one email. I will have to work on that.

Peace

This is a long movie, but it goes in a direction that is on topic in my opinion. This is for the atheists!

www.zeitgeistmovie.com...

reply to post by Guzzeppi

There is no doubt that this movie goes after christianity and the bible only. That is ok though. My faith is stronger than this 2 hour movie!

Guz

Originally posted by Shawn B.


Jesus was a Kabbalist

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

Can you please site your source for claiming that Jesus was a Kabbalist?

Thanks,

reply to post by Garnet


There is nothing wrong with God, or Jesus. What is WRONG is so-called (modern) "Christianity."

Keep in mind that the original New Testament church did NOT have "the Bible." They ONLY had told "Old Testament." They were the authors of the New Testament.

Keep in mind, too, that MAN decided, NOT GOD, what SHOULD and SHOULD NOT be INCLUDED in the "Bible" at the Cannonization of the Scriptures, and that there's a LOT MORE....Scriptures....that TO THIS DAY (modern) Christianity STILL rejects.

Althought the movie "Stigmata" is totally 100% FICTION, by NO means any kind of documentary about stigmata, many of the QUOTES in it are REAL, like Jesus saying for us to pick up a stone, or break a piece of wood and LOOK INSIDE and THERE HE IS.

Did you know that the AMERICAN INDIANS and some ANCIENT CHINESE have documents CHRIST VISITING THEM AFTER HIS RESSURECTION?

They described him: robe, hand, feet, wounds, etc.

What is the VERY SMALLEST ELEMENT past protons and neutrons and quarks, and all that? PURE ENERGY at the CENTER of EVERY ATOM.

Know you NOT what that is?

Call it what you will, Divine Cosmic Presence, God, etc., it is to what Jesus was referring, God TRULY IS ......EVERYWHERE....IN EVERYTHING...IN EVERY ONE.

Jesus' position NEGATES the so-called "church" autority, man's autority, over man.

YES MODERN RELIGION as been used to CONTROL US.

But God IS GOD, and man shall pay dearly for what he's done by such schemes.



[edit on 1/13/2008 by rm8471]

Yes I totally agree with the orginal post, I am of the age of nearly coming out of my teen's, and my family is quite religious. However, havinf witnessed so many things happening and the way my family act's towards religion, especially Christianity, I figured quite a while ago something was really wrong. I also have a belief that most, nay, all war's have been caused by religion in some or most ways. I suggest you (or everyone else too who is intrested), check out the thread 'The Greatest Lie Ever Told - The Bible' which was posted by my friend. There has been a massive discussion which may lead to a few things that might help more with the views in here.

Hope to hear more soon, this kind of discussion is worth it.

TheSecretTruth

reply to post by Garnet

Gee, did you hurt yourself expelling all that hot air? If you're so unhappy with the "Christian" religion, then stay away from it. I'm a Christian and frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you do. You can become a Muslim, A Buddhist, an Atheist or grow flowers in your crack for all I care. You might want to get your facts straight on a couple of things, oh "enlightened one." Money isn't the root of all evil, it's the love of money. In other words, it's greed. As for you being forced to believe, attend or tithe, that's a load of crap unless someone held a gun to your head. You can believe whatever the hell you want even if you believe nothing. Attendance and tithing are optional. It's that little clause in the Constitution referred to as "Freedom of religion." Frankly, it sounds like your angry because you discovered you were gullible and easily led by the nose. That's not the Church's fault.
Christianity isn't your problem, organized religion is. There's a huge difference between them. Christianity is a belief and it's personal. The Christian Churches (like any other organized religions) are organizations which are impersonal. So there you have it. You're free to be the hateful, mindless grouch you sounded like in your post. It's your right.
Just remember, your rights end at the tip of everyone else's nose. (Ignoring this fact can lead to you discovering there are sharp teeth beyond that point and could lead to personal injury. Citizens of the US accept no responsibility or liability for such-A public service announcement)

reply to post by TheSecretTruth

All wars? You failed history didn't you? Neither of the world wars started over religion. WWI started over the breakdown of alliances, the German arms race and the assassination of Duke Ferdinand. WWII started over Germany waging war to break the cycle of economic depression they suffered after losing the first war and by Japan invading China, our coming to the defense of the Chinese and then Japan attacking us. The Korean war was started by Korean Communists invading South Korea who split away from them. VietNam, likewise.
I don't get why you and Garnet are so vexed by religion. If it's because of religious people, stay away from them. You can't make them stop believing or make them be quiet because they have all the same rights as you do which means they have the right to be just as annoying as you.
If you don't understand this, you must have failed Civil Liberties class too.

Originally posted by Garnet
So up until the last week or so I was still believing the lame horse # that's been forced down my throat for the last 21 years. Isn't it funny how, just because you've been brought up a certain way and surrounded by people who all share the same beliefs, your mind just accepts it? I've always had a difficult time contradicting the so-called facts that have been preached to me; most of you can probably relate to that. I feel so brainwashed now!

Anyway, after "being a Christian" for so long, I'm finding it hard to express why exactly I feel the way I do. I'm not sure if I believe that religion is a conspiracy, exactly, but it would not surprise me in the slightest. Obviously I don't even have to mention why it's possible--look at all of the money involved; every Christian church in existance practically begs for money even though it's supposed to be the root of all evil. And since this planet has been in existence, leaders have done everything possible to force people to blindly follow them. I don't think the Bible is any different, especially since we are supposed to fear God. It's just a way to control us.

What really kills it for me are the followers. Everyone I've ever gone to church with and known personally at the same time would say one thing in church and another outside of it. Some of the worst, most immoral people I've ever known have attended church with me in the past. Then they claim that God does so much for them; sorry, that's you doing it and not Him. Even if you pray for it and somewhere down the road it actually happens, it's just a coincidence. Funny how the Bible expressly states that you should be persistant with your prayers and that God will only do everything in His time. To me that's just an attempt to cover up the fact that there is no Christian God. If the Bible didn't say that he only does things on his time, then he would automatically be proven false the first time someone prayed.

They all use God as a copout, too. The situation that sticks in my mind the most happened during the last time I set foot in a church. A guy got up on stage with a microphone to share his "testimony" and told about some of his past. He said that years ago, he had been a minister at another church and was then married with a wife and two kids. Long story short, he was giving a woman in the church some counseling and ended up shagging her silly on several occasions (yes, he actually admitted this to everyone, although he didn't use that choice of words... LOL) and was found out. His wife divorced him and he was no longer allowed in the church. So then he went on and on about how much he regretted it and would do anything to get them back, but kept saying that he was glad that God had chosen to show him what he could lose from sinning. So now because he went around telling everyone what a huge lying, cheating, sinful ass he is, his wife is giving him another chance. And everyone actually LOOKS UP to him just because he's going around giving God the glory for what all he learned as a result. I've never been forced to endure a bigger load of crap.

So basically I've gone from crying during prayers to rolling my eyes every time someone says "Jesus". It's like the very thought of Christianity and everything surrounding it absolutely disgusts me now. I'm not an evil person; I think I'm extremely moral compared to most people, actually. It's just that everything feels so fake and I think it's just some big stupid story that was conjured up.
[edit on 10-1-2008 by Garnet]

If you read your Bible lately, you would know that the "love of money is the root of all evil" not money itself. You would also note that the Bible condemns the phoniness you have gotten fed up with. I suspect God is fed up with phonies in the church, too, which would explain the exposure of a lot of "religious leaders" lately.