What proof will satisfy you?

I don't necessarily consider myself an extreme "tin foil" hat believer. I do believe in the existance of aliens and UFO's, but I do consider myself to have a healthy dose of skepticism. So I do try to monitor myself and not believe absolutely every piece of video I see (as you can see from any previous posts I've made).

That being said though, I have often heard not only on discovery/history channel documentaries, but even here as well from our own ATS members the phrase "I won't believe it until they land on the white house" The first thing I should point out. Wasn't there a while back (I can't remember as I wasn't born then) that there was a big event called "UFO's over DC!" and even "UFO invasion of DC air space" and they showed in the media and news papers all these lights flying over capitol hill. Ok, they didn't land, and to be completely honest, I can understand why, we s**nk as a species and I can definetely see why they'd want to avoid contact to a mass population. So they didn't land, but they were seen. Was this event debunked? was it proven to be false? Someone help me out here as I can't remember that far off anyway.

The other thing that bothers me about this is that some of these skeptics (one in particular in a show said "why don't they simply do a crop circle in the white house lawn") are assuming these aliens are smart enough to tell that the leader of our species lives in washington when quite frankly, I could see how this could be confusing. If anything, I believe that the best way to communicate a message would be in a large field for several members of a species to see and become relatively unseen by hostiles. Going back to the point at the top of this paragraph, I think it's naive to think that these aliens are supposed to be so incredibly smart that they would be able to understand every single facet of our species. If that were true, why would are they still studying us? (or are they?)

The last point that bothers me about this sort of mentality "why don't they land in the white house" is that, at least to me, it seems that you won't believe anything unless it becomes government approved, and that is a scary thought. People with this mentality are basically saying they won't believe it until it lands on their back yard, or the government tells them they exist. Of course we can knock down the landing on your backyard idea since the chances of it happening are slim to none. Which leaves this people with wanting only an "official story" and I'm sure that to them, nothing sounds more official than "government approved". Which makes me wonder if they would only buy grocery items with the same "guarantee". So these people are saying that they won't believe any form of hard evidence supporting alien existence unless it comes from the govt.? I'm sorry but that sounds a little feceitious (sp?)

Look, I know I'm sounding a little harsh, but I really am not trying to bash skeptics as I myself try to monitor myself and question everything I see at first. But to take it to the lenghts some people do, both in these documentaries, news and here in ATS as well, it simply borders on prejudice simply because it doesn't fit your view, the whole "you don't have absolute 100% proof they exist, so you're crazy!" without even bothering to study the evidence shown. Unless of course, again "the saucer lands on the white house" Even during the disclosure project people were told to be skeptic, but not irrationally so. What disgusted me even more was how the newscasters afterwards, rather than studying the evidence as suggested, they decided instead to mock these men (some high ranking officers) and call them loons. This sort of behavior should be unnaceptable especially if your'e not going to substantiate your claims.

As one of my favorite super heroes would say: It's not the answer that is important, it's the question.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by Question]

Do you need proof to tell you that Santa doesnt exist? I usually want proof, but unfortunetly I already have a fairly ignorant viewpoint in that Ill convince myself that something is real/not real just on my perceptions. While its ignorant, it makes sense to me. And sure, Id love to see some undeniable proof that aliens are flying around about, but as I said, Ive already convinced myself that they are, and Im not fretting all that much whether the truth comes out tomorrow, or in 20 years time.

reply to post by 3_Libras


If there were evidence of sightings of a flying sleigh and flying reindeer (and I'm talking about good evidence, not fabricated hoaxes) you're telling me you're not going to take a gander?

Putting aliens in the same vein as santa seems feceitious. One is clearly a fabricated story for children, the other one has ample evidence (both what could be considered real evidence as well as fabricatred evidence) as well as millions upon millions of sightings world wide. Sorry, but there definetely is something there to study, and unlike aliens, there's no scientific equation supporting the existance of santa. But then again, as you said, you've already made up your mind on the subject, so nothing I say will have an impact.

Well Ive already concluded that Im fairly ignorant in such matters. Yes there is a lot of evidence thats flying around concerning aliens, but nearly every piece of evidence has its supporter and detractor. Its difficult to claim that evidence exists which is utterly irrefutable.

Originally posted by Question
Ok, they didn't land, and to be completely honest, I can understand why, we s**nk as a species and I can definetely see why they'd want to avoid contact to a mass population.

The problem is that you are assuming that the lights were alien space craft. They could have been a bunch of balloons with candles, but there is no way to know because nobody got close enough to them and took a decent picture. Simple as that.

What would be proof enough for me?
1- They land on my backyard, and say 'hi, we come from outer space'.
2- White House official confirms alien presence
3- An invasion like in the film Independence Day

See, I'm not blind, but I'm also not going to fall for anything that can possibly have an alternate explanation.

Speaking of Independence Day, I still never quite figured out why one was positioned over the White House. It makes no actual sense, especially when you consider the influence it had over the course of the movie

[edit on 9-1-2008 by 3_Libras]

Originally posted by daniel_g

Originally posted by Question
Ok, they didn't land, and to be completely honest, I can understand why, we s**nk as a species and I can definetely see why they'd want to avoid contact to a mass population.

The problem is that you are assuming that the lights were alien space craft. They could have been a bunch of balloons with candles, but there is no way to know because nobody got close enough to them and took a decent picture. Simple as that.

What would be proof enough for me?
1- They land on my backyard, and say 'hi, we come from outer space'.
2- White House official confirms alien presence
3- An invasion like in the film Independence Day

See, I'm not blind, but I'm also not going to fall for anything that can possibly have an alternate explanation.

1) I find this a little silly since I'm sure aliens don't get Yellow Book, nor do they probably consider you important enough to show themselves in person.
2) Do you also make sure everything you buy at the store is "government approved"? are you honestly saying that if someone showed you solid evidence you would deny it just because the government didn't say so? Don't you think that's being a little naive? Why can't you make up your own mind? Why do you need the government to tell you what to believe?
3) why are you assuming they're coming to do harm?

Again, there's healthy skepticism and then there's irrational skepticism. It seems like you simply skimmed through my post or only read the paragraph you quoted. What ever the case maybe, I know I probably won't be able to change the minds of those that I think are being too irrational in their skepticism. But I do find it sad though that there are so many that fit into the category of point #2. Who feel that unless the govt. tells them it's true, then they're simply going to deny the evidence outright.

Edited for some grammar mistakes >.<

[edit on 9-1-2008 by Question]

how about a spaceship swooping down on a city in broad daylight with thousands of witnesses and tv cameras. That would do it for me

if aliens are visting theyre quite an ignorant bunch, it would be quite easy for them to make contact- just blast a radio signal to the aceribo telescope but we havnt had a phone call yet.

why wouldnt they make contact with us?

reply to post by yeti101


Fair enough, I agree that maybe a broad day light low altitude fly by would definetely be ample evidence for their existence. It is unfortunate however, that with the increase of fake CGI videos and photos, it will be a long while before we can find a genuine video or photo.

As to why they don't communicate with us via radio or any other device? who know! Again, we're making the assumption they're so incredbily smart that they understand our technology, when it could easily take them years to try and figure out our "primitive" technology.

To give you an example. On discovery, there was a show where we had finally found some parts of what seemed like an ancient device used by greeks. At first we honestly didn't know what the heck it was, until the scientists got to work and figured out that it was some form of "clock" that actually predicted planetary positions in space. Heck they even argued that it seemed way to advance even for their time (but that's not my point) my point being that, just because today we may consider ourselves more "intelligent" than people from a "primitive" society, still some time was required to decipher this technology. On another note, how do we know they even have the tools to communicate via radio?

Now, I'm sure that my point above might be considered silly and simple supposition. But I'm a guy that likes to study every angle I can. On another angle. Maybe the reason they don't simply communicate via radio/TV/landing on the white house is... lets face it, if I were an alien species looking in on us, I'd be pretty scared too, we're perhaps the most violent, greedy self absorbed species on the planet (that I know of) we kill not just for food, but we kill for fun, for monetary gain and for lust for christ's sake. Yes, not all humans are that way, but looking at the devastation we've created over the years, I can see why they'd want to communicate only by night, unseen and in a field in the middle of nowhere. That is, of course assuming that there are some crop circles which are genuine. It could be that they're all fake, period... I'm open to the idea of some of them being real, but I'm also open to the idea they could all be fake.

Definitive proof is something I doube we will find along the journey, but is instead the goal.

I look for Empirical Evidence.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Question
1) I find this a little silly since I'm sure aliens don't get Yellow Book, nor do they probably consider you important enough to show themselves in person.

You are not getting my point.

2) Do you also make sure everything you buy at the store is "government approved"? are you honestly saying that if someone showed you solid evidence you would deny it just because the government didn't say so? Don't you think that's being a little naive? Why can't you make up your own mind? Why do you need the government to tell you what to believe?

If I told you that I had dinner yesterday with president Bush, and he said they are invading Iran within a month, would you believe me? Probably not. What kind of 'solid evidence' would you look for? Pictures? How do you know that what I'm saying is true just by looking at pictures? How do you even know that the pictures aren't fake? Would you believe me if rigth after I told you of Bush's plans a white house spokeman corfirms that the US is indeed going to war with Iran within a month? If your answer is 'maybe', or even 'yes', does it imply that you have to hear it from the government to believe in anything at all? NO

3) why are you assuming they're coming to do harm?

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I'm not assuming anything, you are just not getting the point. If a giant UFO floats on top of the Empire State building I would get worried. However, I need to see either a live coverage about it, or good high quality pictures/video of the incident as long as it doesn't look like a bunch of balloons with candles or an out of focus helicopter. The testimony of the millions of New Yorkers that saw the incident would help.

reply to post by daniel_g


wow I never thought anyone could miss my point on all three accounts!

Originally posted by Question
reply to post by daniel_g

 

wow I never thought anyone could miss my point on all three accounts!

I didn't miss it. You are assuming that there is solid evidence, therefore I should believe.

I'm saying there is no such 'solid evidence'. If there is, point me to it.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by daniel_g]

I'll believe when a ship, or ships land in broad daylight, and the government and military shake in fear realizing it ain't one of theirs.
I doubt I will ever see that.

reply to post by Question


thats some interesting thoughts there but i dont think they hold up. I dont think its possible for an alien civilization to master interstellar travel but not know what a radio wave is. infact i couldnt see a way for a spacefaring civilization to avoid the discovery of radio waves and achieve space travel at the same time.

They would have no reason to be scared of us they could communicate from the moon if they like, if they can harness the energy to travel the stars and make crafts like described in ufo stories it puts them far ahead of us we wouldnt be a match for them in a fight.


[edit on 9-1-2008 by yeti101]

reply to post by 3_Libras


some feel that DC is built over a magic square of the earth, emitting lots of energy

google magic squares

Originally posted by yeti101
how about a spaceship swooping down on a city in broad daylight with thousands of witnesses and tv cameras. That would do it for me

That's already happened. Phoenix lights for one, where even the governor of Arizona stated it was "out of this world"

EDIT: that was at night, but there were still thousands of witnesses.

[edit on 9-1-2008 by GeeGee]

They don't have to land on the White House. Let them land at a public square anywhere in the world and let people video the event. THAT would be the definitive proof.

reply to post by daniel_g


Ok, here's the criteria you posted

"1- They land on my backyard, and say 'hi, we come from outer space'.
2- White House official confirms alien presence
3- An invasion like in the film Independence Day "

1- Translation? "me, me, me, my, my, my, I, I, I" it's all about ME. I want THEM to show themselves to ME, as opposed to saying "well, it's highly unlikely, but perhaps I should study the phenomenon to see what I, or other experts come up with"

2- Translation? "Only the government can tell me the truth as to whether they're real or not" Yes, I completely agree with you there, that a lot of evidence can be fake. In fact that seems to be a big issue here to the point where some ATS members want to figure out a way to separate fake from suspicious evidence. That being said however. I think I'd rather take the word from experts in other fields (which aren't always government officials and don't necessarily have to be UFOlogists.)

To give you an example of what I mean. "The Alien Interview" at first I honestly thought it was for real, but then again, I also know that thanks to current technology, it could be easily faked. Now they had asked in that show what some people who were UFOlogists, and some who were involved in film making what their thoughts were. None of them were govt. officials (that I know of) I agreed with the people in film making more so than I did the UFOlogists. Film making is their expertise and they were able to point certain things out. I, also being a film student could notice certain things that, while it looked "real" there was something just odd about it that didn't quite fit. Again I'd like to point out that they didn't ask any govt. official to comment on whether the video was a hoax or real. However, they did ask professional in other fields for their opinion.

This is what I was referring to. On point #2 you make it sound like only a govt. official can let you know if it's true or not, and to heck with the opinions of other people who might have better credentials. I think you are being naive in thinking the govt. is going to tell you the truth about everything that's going on.

3- I know this is going to sound silly but... Class... what kind of invasion was the one present in Independence day? the conquering kind! that's right!

Look I'm not trying to rag on you, but maybe you should try and re-phrase your ideas better. Look at the what Yeti101 said, which is really more concrete and similar to what you were trying to say,to which I agreed with him/her. You didn't really elaborate on your point.

reply to post by AccessDenied


same as with Yeti101, I agree that, that would be a fair request.