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Independent testing of standard M16 and AK74 ammunition effectiveness challenge! (video)

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posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 08:35 PM
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To follow up to my other M16/AK “challenge” thread, I immediately wanted to follow up with the more appropriate comparison between small caliber rivals, 5.56 and 5.45.

In the West to this day a myth persists that 5.45 is a weaker, slower, less accurate and generally less lethal and effective round.

Years back I took interest into the unorthodox design of the 5.45 bullet, and the traditional Soviet steel fluted sealed case.

5.56 is a straight brass case round that gives it that extra pressure threshold tolerance which gives the extra speed, but since the round was not design for the military and derived from a hunting round, in its military application it severely suffers from fundamental flaws which have been fixed to this day.

1. Straight brass case.

a. Brass cases are MUCH more expensive then steel/aluminum cases.
b. Straight cases are inherently harder to feed/extract and suffer from ramp stoppages.
c. Straight cases are naturally prone to rupturing if the chamber is contaminated even with the slights of debris, which was a severe problem with early M16 which did not have full chrome lining.
d. Inability to lacquer seal neck/primer of the round which seals it from moisture and extend its shelf life. Upon firing lacquer splits from the case and deposits in the chamber, thus contaminating it for the next round, which will split/explode or force a catastrophic failure. Other then that the other massive problem is that the thin gas tube of the M16 simply can’t take even the slights lacquer residue, so reliable sealed rounds simply can not be used by the entire M16 family of ARs.

The bullet.

a. Low weight, high muzzle velocity, thin walled.
b. Good ballistic trajectory, but suffers from low penetration and most importantly through out its use its stability issue has been its biggest problem.
c. Continues changes in barrel rifling twists resulted in need to mark different 5.56 rounds because they could not be used in different generation/barrel length/twist M16 models. Green tip 5.56 is a prime example of that.
d. High velocity fragmentation effect even in stabilized bullets is only archived from full length barrels, while bullet flight deviation upon traveling through light brush or branches severely degrades the ability of the weapon to deliver fire areas with vegetation, which is pretty much everywhere except the desert and cities.
e. When fired from short barrels (M4) the round has been repeatedly proven to be largely ineffective at ranges varying from 50 to 100 yards. In direct comparisons 9mm submachine guns (MP5) repeatedly and decisively outperformed M4 in total lethality even against body armor when using 9mm AP rounds.

For now I’ll stop here and give ATS members to throw in their two cents, but do ask to pay attention to the video, and especially how the 5.45 rounds are sealed/packaged, and the red stripe on the round which is clearly visible between the case and the round.

Here's the video;



If again it does not work, here's the raw link;

www.youtube.com...

[edit: fixed code for video]

[edit on 13-1-2008 by 12m8keall2c]




posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by iskander


5.56 is a straight brass case round that gives it that extra pressure threshold tolerance which gives the extra speed, but since the round was not design for the military and derived from a hunting round, in its military application it severely suffers from fundamental flaws which have been fixed to this day.

1. Straight brass case.

a. Brass cases are MUCH more expensive then steel/aluminum cases.
b. Straight cases are inherently harder to feed/extract and suffer from ramp stoppages.
c. Straight cases are naturally prone to rupturing if the chamber is contaminated even with the slights of debris, which was a severe problem with early M16 which did not have full chrome lining.




The 5.56 is not a Straight case, it is a necked down case.

Roper



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by Roper
 



The 5.56 is not a Straight case, it is a necked down case.


Naturally, .30 US Carbine is a good example of a straight case, but we’re talking case bodies, not chambering.

All right here;

www.quarry.nildram.co.uk...

All Soviet/Russian military cartridges are fluted, which improves feeding/extraction while slightly degrading pressure tolerances.

If you roll a 5.56 on a desk it’ll roll straight and you roll any Soviet/Russian round it will roll of the desk.

AK-47s “banana” magazine is curved that much because the round cases are that fluted, while AK-74 magazines are not as curved for the same reason.

M-14/16s 20 round magazines were completely straight, because the round cases are straight, and they just don’t feed as well in automatic weapons.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:17 PM
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I suggest that you change your first post and indicate the case body and not the whole case.

Guess what I have been doing tonight, that's right hand loading 5.56 rounds. 75 gr BTHP, 3 different recipes.

Now then I'll put up or shut up. My AR against your AK. 100yds to 1000yds and everything in between.
We'll use the standard USPSA targets.


Roper



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by Roper
 



I suggest that you change your first post and indicate the case body and not the whole case.


Oh come on, full straight cases were a thing of the 19th century hunters, we’re talking 20th century.


Now then I'll put up or shut up. My AR against your AK. 100yds to 1000yds and everything in between. We'll use the standard USPSA targets.



With a scoped Vepr II, anytime!

www.robarm.com...



www.robarm.com..." target='_blank' class='tabOff'/>



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 09:07 AM
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No, no, now your changing calibers.

My 45-70 is very 21st century.



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by Roper
 



No, no, now your changing calibers.


OK, no prob, Super Vepr in 5.56 then. You got a match barrel?



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 09:04 PM
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Why yes I do.

It's a must, the coyotes hang out very far.

Roper



posted on Jan, 12 2008 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by Roper
 



Why yes I do.


heck, what can I say, I’m jealous.

I could never splash cash on a match barrel for a Bushy Stoner.

Ruger – absolutely!

I used to live Hood River Oregon. The house was right in the middle of the orchards.

We had some coyote regulars, so I camped out once.

Got a night sight?



posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by iskander
reply to post by Roper
 



Why yes I do.



Got a night sight?


Nope

After I get an AR-10 then I'll get the high end toys.

Roper



posted on Jan, 14 2008 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by Roper
 



After I get an AR-10 then I'll get the high end toys.


Seriously, why not Super Vepr? You’ll be amazed. It’s a beautifully crafted piece, top notch fit and finish, great furniture, heavy, balance cut barrel, outstanding chrome lining all around, shoots like a champ out of the box and even better when tweaked a bit.

If you have a gun show near by just take a look at one first hand, you’ll for your self.

I became a believer when a .308 SV out shot a match M14.



posted on Jan, 16 2008 @ 08:48 PM
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I have been looking for some intel on these. At AR-15.com they have an AK forum so I'll check into it.

I gotta tell you an AR is simple to work on and cleaning is no problem, push one pin out and pull the charging handle and bolt. A few dots of mil-tec and away you go.

Roper



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by Roper
 



I gotta tell you an AR is simple to work on and cleaning is no problem, push one pin out and pull the charging handle and bolt. A few dots of mil-tec and away you go.


Vepr breks down just as an AK, the major difference is that the receaiver and its cover are exact same runs as RPKs, which use much thicker and higher grade metal in order to absorb continues fire that SAW is required to put down range.

In hunting application, such thickened receiver give the entire weapon greater rigidity, brings down receiver/chamber/barrel flex to a minimum (less then in .223 Bushy), and allows for tighter tolerances of the entire assembly.

Mind you in advance, since the tolerances are tighter then in regular run of the mil AKs, don’t expect it to take the same abuse as RPK for example, so full-auto conversion will not be a good idea if it is to be dragged through the mud, even if you have the license to do it.

Vepr/Super Vepr are tuned for hunting, (sniping), and a well tuned SV will outshoot a regular front line SVD with no problem. Pro-SVDs are entirely another matter, but getting your hands on one of those will not only be rather difficult, but will also cost you more then just a few grand.



posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 01:49 PM
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Yes, AK-74 has smaller caliber (5.45 x 39), but I prefer the AKM-47 (7.62 x 39), more power.

M16 has better precision and lighter weight, but AKM-47 is more reliable and has a bigger punch

www.youtube.com...



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