Thomas...

reply to post by AshleyD


This is it? These are the great links you provided me, that are supposed to convince me….c-mon……wtf…..?

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.” (Matt. 24:32-33)

Students of prophecy often identify the Lesson of the Fig Tree in Matt. 24 as a reference to Israel. While the fig tree is sometimes used to symbolize Israel, this is not one of those times.

The fig tree is one of the last trees to bud in the spring, so when it begins to get leaves people know that summer is right around the corner. There'll be no more false starts, no more cold snaps. Summer is now certain and soon. Jesus used this analogy to tell people who'll be on Earth at the time that when they see the things he described beginning in Matt. 24:15, they'll know that His coming is really near.

I’ve never read such BS…..wait for it……just wait…..I love this….don’t you…a………. ‘fig tree’ is meant to represent the “End Time prophecies”…. please tell me you don’t actually believe this is the real deal….?

"At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood." (Daniel 11:40)

Three separate kings are in view in this one verse and their identities must be discovered to fully understand what will happen in the days leading up to the end. They are the King of the North, the King of the South, and the one who was identified in Daniel 11:36 as the king who exalts himself. We call him the anti-Christ. All of Daniel 11:4-35 has been taken up with a discussion of various generations of the King of the North and the King of the South, but this King is neither, and subdues them both.

first off…..we don’t have “chariots and cavalry” anymore… no archers and swordsmen….this book was written back when that was all they had…don’t expect anyone to make such a BS leap from “chariots and cavalry” to tanks and aircraft bombers.... it aren’t happening “He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.” This has happened so many, many times through history where a country has taken over many others, or a single person, you got Ganges Khan who took over both west and East Asia. Hitler…..I don’t need to go into that obviously…

And finally the ‘king’ of the North…...well that’s just ridiculous, we don’t have Kings anymore…well we do…but they have no real power…they can’t take over countries….and besides ‘North’ America…there’s still plenty of other Northern countries, North Africa, North Korea….and the same goes for the Southern etc etc….

1. Israel Will Be In The Land... Ezekiel 38:8
After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

I’m not gonna even try to make sense of this…..complete nonsense, gibberish and everything else……can you please! provide Links that have some sensibility to them?

Because of Pentecost.

Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes to every born again believer when they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Until you make that leap of faith, and are filled with the Holy Spirit, you won't understand.

Act 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

I am such a witness. Unto the uttermost part of the earth via the internet. Halleluiah!

Acts 2

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

May the healing power of the Holy Spirit come to us all in our hour of need.

Originally posted by andre18
fig tree’ is meant to represent the “End Time prophecies”

It's called an analogy. Jesus was comparing the end time signs to the nearness of summer. Since the fig tree was the last tree to blossom, He says when these signs start happening, it won't be centuries away but in a single lifespan.

And finally the ‘king’ of the North…...well that’s just ridiculous, we don’t have Kings anymore…well we do…but they have no real power…they can’t take over countries….and besides ‘North’ America…there’s still plenty of other Northern countries, North Africa, North Korea….and the same goes for the Southern etc etc….

All countries in the Bible are listed by their proximity to Israel. For instance, South would be Egypt, North would be Turkey, the far north would be Russia, etc. It is a very well known Biblical principle.

It has nothing to do with "North Korea" or "South America." This was specifically done because it was known the names and boundaries of countries are always changing. If the name "Gazemial" was given, we would have no idea what country or land that was today.

I’m not gonna even try to make sense of this…..complete nonsense, gibberish and everything else……can you please! provide Links that have some sensibility to them?

Alright, but this is the last time. Please realize I am not being mean but, well, it's just not difficult. Click: Here. Scroll down past the introduction and read the section concerning the Israel prophecies.

Let me ask you this. Would you believe if this happened:
1) A one world government was formed and was headed by one man?
2) The mark of the beast occurred where no one could buy or sell without it?
3) A one world religion was formed where you either had to convert or die?
4) If millions of people vanish from the earth instantaneously?
5) If Israel is invaded by the exact coalition of nations the Bible foretold?
6) If the Jewish temple was rebuilt but the same leader who headed the one world government stood in it and declared himself to be God?
7) This same world leader made a seven year treaty with Israel but broke it off after 3 1/2 years and committed the atrocity in the temples mentioned in number 6?

If you say no, then I will realize the type of person (spiritually blinded) I'm dealing with. Again, I'm not being mean. It is simply a matter of reason and we are warned there will be some people who simply cannot see. The above seven prophecies to be fulfilled are well known and specific but so are the seven below that have been fuliflled.

1) Israel would be reborn as a nation in one day. This happened May 14, 1948.
2) It would be a united nation not divided into two parts like before. This happened.
3) It would not be headed by a king (all countries were headed by a king in antiquity so this was an odd prophecy to those who heard it). This happened. It is a secular government- not a monarchy.
4) Israel would be reborn to the year in 1948. This happened.
5) Jerusalem would later be reunited in Israel. This happened in 1967.
6) Israel would have a peace treaty with Jordan (this happened) and Egypt (this happened).
7) There would be a anti-Israeli coalition of countries surrounding Israel armed and later led by Russia (this has and is happening). The exact coalition of Muslim nations Ezekiel foresaw is already in place with the exception of Turkey. After Turkey switches over, we believe the war in Ezekiel 38 will take place.

Again, I cannot be anymore clear. It is all there for anyone to read but I do recommend the help of a study bible or websites that will explain things like "kings" "south" "chariots" etc. If you do not believe it with the bottom seven, I'm worried you won't see it with the top seven. Again, these are only examples. There are literally hundreds. To say "nothing has been fulfilled" or "this is stupid" is not logical. So, I did try to help. Seriously, Google "fulfilled Biblical prophecy" for dozens of websites.

[edit on 1/11/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Oh Dear. Are you a preterist? That might explain your view.

What is a preterism?
Ok, I googled. No, I am not preterist just like other Orthodox Christians.

"Amillennialist" means much the same as "Preterist" (Partial Preterist to be precise) although neither position exactly represents our take on the matter. (There are postmillenial partial preterists, but hey, the adjectives are already getting overloaded).

We certainly refute chiliasm (and, therefore postmillennialism) and all its associated doctrines, including of course the so-called "Rapture."

Wikipedia has a good article at en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by AshleyD
Agreed. The system of Babylon is often used metaphorically throughout the Bible and Jerusalem is important. However, Babylon is now being recreated as many of us literal prophecy watchers believed all along. Pay close attention- Jerusalem and Babylon are both required to be literal cities for the end times. One as a religious center and another as a commercial center.

Also read the prophecy concerning the final destruction of literal Babylon in the Old Testament. It was never fulfilled the way it was supposed to be done because the prophecy is to be literally fulfilled in the end times because the literal city was promised to literally exist and will literally be destroyed. Literally!

There can be only one capital. Jerusalem is not mentioned as capital of Antichrist World Empire, but it is Babylon [metaphorically, of course]. But Babylon hasn’t any importance to Christianity, Judaism and Islam so it will be Jerusalem as a holy city for all three.

reply to post by AshleyD

You are member of Evangelical Church, aren't you?
news.bbc.co.uk...

In common with many American evangelicals, he believes that God gave the land to the Jewish people and that Christians have a Biblical duty to support it and the Jews.

His latest book, Jerusalem Countdown: A Warning to the World, interprets the Bible to predict that Russian and Arab armies will invade Israel and be destroyed by God.

This will set up a confrontation over Israel between China and the West, led by the anti-Christ, who will be the head of the European Union, Pastor Hagee writes.

That final battle between East and West - at Armageddon, as the actual Israeli location of Meggido is known in English - will precipitate the second coming of Christ, he concludes.

It is not clear how many evangelicals believe literally in those type of prophecies.

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

[edit on 11-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

reply to post by andre18


Andre, I do sincerely hope that you (or anyone else at ATS) won't take this the wrong way, but, as human to a human (not to even mention a thinker), I just have to tell you: this is no place to be asking questions like that.
I mean, you obviously feel deeply about this. You MAY find an answer - but I doubt very much it'd be here.

And BTW: if Thomas was Jesus' "brother" (you must understand, though, that the word brother isn't always meant in the usual current sense), he would have been his HALF-brother.
Remember?




[edit on 11-1-2008 by Vanitas]

Originally posted by Vojvoda
What is a preterism?

A very basic definition of preterism is the belief all Biblical prophecy has already been fulfilled and the only thing left to happen is Jesus' return. Trust me, it would be wonderful if they were right. This means there would be no tribulation, Antichrist, and judgments. If there was any end time view that I would prefer to be true it is preterism. However, there is simply too much evidence to show this view is false.

Preterism pretty much started dying down during the 20th century. Too many end time signs started to be fulfilled so many now hold to a futuristic view of prophecy. To me, this is a wonderful testimony to what we are seeing. In other words, the things that were supposed to happen were so inconceivable by modern prophecy scholars that they wrongfully assumed it was all fulfilled in history. Most preterists are now recanting and switching views because there is simply too much evidence the things are happening exactly the way literal futurists believed all along.

There can be only one capital. Jerusalem is not mentioned as capital of Antichrist World Empire, but it is Babylon [metaphorically, of course]. But Babylon hasn’t any importance to Christianity, Judaism and Islam so it will be Jerusalem as a holy city for all three.

Don't forget about Rome, too. Jerusalem (although undoubtedly the most important city in the end times) will still share the spotlight with Babylon and Rome for a little while. This is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. All three cities are required to exist. Rome (still around), Jerusalem (now back in control of the Israelites as prophesied) and Babylon (Saddam spent 20 years rebuilding the ruins and now others are picking up where he left off). It will be literally as well as metaphorically be fulfilled.

You are member of Evangelical Church, aren't you?

Eh, I don't like to label myself. But if you must, then I'm a Protestant, Evangelical, Nondenominational Christian. I go by the Bible and the Bible only. Nothing else. Everything you quoted from that source is definitely what I believe, though. Why? Because that is exactly what the Bible says will happen, all the signs we are seeing are pointing to their fulfillment, and the Bible is what I go by- not man's teachings or interpretations.

this is no place to be asking questions like that.

Well this is ATS...basically one of the best places to be asking these kinds of questions.....unless you won’t to go on youtube and make a video response...? Can you at least elaborate on what you're on about.....

You MAY find an answer - but I doubt very much it'd be here.

............................what...?.....I mean....I’ve already got like 20 responses.....(thanks everyone who's responded so far.. )

Originally posted by andre18

The proof of the Bible's authenticity does actually exist today. The proof is the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.

Can you please show me one example of how a 'Biblical prophecy' has come true......just one......

genesis 2:17 the Creator G-D talking to adam tells him---from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,for in the day you eat from it you shall surely die.genesis 5:5so all the days that adam lived were 930 years and he died------because he and eve didnt believe what G-D told them and disobeyed this law--consequently we get to die as well thanks to our first human parents sins.

reply to post by yahn goodey


So hold on…..because it says Adam and Eve sinned this is meant to be the cause of our death, that doesn’t make sense…..what about animals and plants and bacteria etc, they die…was there an Adam and Eve for them too….if there was….it would have said it in the bible…and yet it does not…..and no….you can’t use a metaphor like Adam and Eve sinned for all life on the planet and so all life now dies because of them…..because it literally says THEY were basically kicked out of the Garden of Eden, not every single animal being kicked out…..

Plus…..what about bacteria’s that have just recently evolved from a mutation…..eg, diseases mutate every day into a new type….that’s why aids are so difficult to combat…as soon as they enter the body they begin to automatically change form and so it is extremely difficult for scientists to come up with a cure, as the aids virus keeps mutating…..and so….why then does bacteria then die….if it was not the original bacteria that apparently was kicked out / banished from the Garden of Eden…..

Simple answer…..we don’t die because someone wrote a theory in a book on the origins of man…

Originally posted by AshleyD
Don't forget about Rome, too. Jerusalem (although undoubtedly the most important city in the end times) will still share the spotlight with Babylon and Rome for a little while. This is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. All three cities are required to exist. Rome (still around), Jerusalem (now back in control of the Israelites as prophesied) and Babylon (Saddam spent 20 years rebuilding the ruins and now others are picking up where he left off). It will be literally as well as metaphorically be fulfilled.

Yea, I know what Sadam did with Babylon and what USA continued, but it's irrelevant. Rome? Rome is only important as seat of Pope - actually, it's Vatican. Irrelevant again even for the most Roman Catholics not the mention the rest.
Why are all three cities required to exist? Jerusalem is only important.

Eh, I don't like to label myself. But if you must, then I'm a Protestant, Evangelical, Nondenominational Christian. I go by the Bible and the Bible only. Nothing else.

Yea, yea, Sola scriptura principle is common to all Protestants.

Everything you quoted from that source is definitely what I believe, though. Why?

I read about American Evangelicals, so I noticed immediately.

Because that is exactly what the Bible says will happen, all the signs we are seeing are pointing to their fulfillment, and the Bible is what I go by- not man's teachings or interpretations.

That’s for some another topic, but view on Russia and Israel is wrong. But anyway, another topic.

Originally posted by Vojvoda

Yea, I know what Sadam did with Babylon and what USA continued, but it's irrelevant. Rome? Rome is only important as seat of Pope - actually, it's Vatican. Irrelevant again even for the most Roman Catholics not the mention the rest. Why are all three cities required to exist? Jerusalem is only important.

I don't know for sure but if I had to guess, it would be so Babylon and Rome would be destroyed for good (both represent corrupt worldly empires and exploitive man made governments) and Jerusalem will stand in contrast. But Babylon, Jerusalem, Rome (referred to a couple times as "The City on Seven Hills," a description of Rome since antiquity) and possibly Shiloh are all important for various reasons. I believe the Bible even alludes to the Vatican (referred to as the Unholy woman clothed in purple and scarlet- colors of Rome) will be moved to Babylon.

I have a hard time believing anything is "irrelevant" if we know it is said to happen and we can see it happening. Just my two cents.

That’s for some another topic, but view on Russia and Israel is wrong. But anyway, another topic.

I don't think so, Hon. Don't get caught up in replacement theology thinking God is done with Israel. It was promised to be regathered twice after the Babylon captivity. Once in antiquity (this happened) and once again prior to the end times (this happened). Nothing is on accident with God. As for Russia, it is referred to as Magog and Rosh in the Bible and will also be a short-lived player. We know it is an ally to the Muslim nations if we keep up with world events. We also know it is mentioned in the coalition against Israel at the end, which is true.

reply to post by AshleyD


Question…..

If you believe what is said in the bible as all be completely true….prophecies and all….then doesn’t that mean you have to accept and believe in everything and I mean everything said in it…..that the world is flat… you must also accept the old testament as well as the new….if you’re going to believe in some parts about prophecies.. then you must believe those who work on the Saturday should be put to death….hmmmmm

Originally posted by andre18
that the world is flat…

It never mentions the world being flat (and I've discussed this in another thread by linking to Hebrew lexicons). Looking at the original Hebrew (and even in many English translations), the correct wording never implies a flat earth (but does make a few references to a circular earth in other passages). Use the assistance of Hebrew lexicons. It is common a misunderstanding because people keep passing around the misinformation uncritically. No one ever looks up the original Hebrew. It talks about extremities, quadrants (as in compass points of NW, NE, SW, and SE) etc., but never describes a flat earth.

I think the misconception grew from faulty Latin and English translations (including the antiquated KJV). The early church fathers even believed the earth was flat (as did most people in antiquity) which led to the accusation of heresy to claim anything to the contrary. I really hope this urban legend dies someday.

you must also accept the old testament as well as the new...hen you must believe those who work on the Saturday should be put to death.

More misconceptions and misinformation. And again something I've explained in full in other threads. Jesus fulfilled the law- He did not abolish it. As in, the principles behind it still stood but the religious rigmarole was no longer required. The debt (sin, the law) was not canceled or made obsolete- it was paid in full. That is the brief answer but I go more in depth on another reply and the New Testament explains this even further. The law was supposed to only be temporary until the Messiah came- it was never supposed to be eternal, only the principles. This is exactly why Christians wear polyester, eat pork, work on Saturday, etc. Because the answer is 2,000 year old news.

[edit on 1/15/2008 by AshleyD]

I thought he was a tank engine

but i get your pint

reply to post by AshleyD



Matthew 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus did not come to abolish the laws of the Old Testament. You must still follow them. Jesus' own words

Exodus 21:17
Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Exodus 22:19
Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.
Exodus 31:14
Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Leviticus 24:16
Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

Check Mate.......

[edit on 15-1-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


Oh, the ignorance is nauseating. Two words: Textual Exegesis. Or another hint: Hermeneutics. You act as if this has never been brought to anyone's attention before and you are the first to discover it. I assure you, we know exactly what this means and the question of whether or not Christians should follow the O.T. Laws was answered around 2,000 years ago.

[edit on 1/15/2008 by AshleyD]

Oh, the ignorance is nauseating.

It truly is........

Two words: Textual Exegesis. Or another hint: Hermeneutics.

Yeah I know what that is.....and yet it makes no difference.....what is said is what is said.....it's not like you can read

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And not see that as something threatening.....for bloody sake.....you really want to believe in this kind of book....

You act as if this has never been brought to anyone's attention before and you are the first to discover it.

No.....but you act as if there's nothing wrong with this.... how can you accept this book for all it's horrific content and as well as that…but as gods word....

I assure you, we know exactly what this means

Obviously you don't...if you did...you wouldn't be a Christian....I can tell you that.....
Can you please give me an example of how you…yourself…interpret such verses ?

Eg…….

Exodus 21:17
Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

Originally posted by andre18
And not see that as something threatening.....for bloody sake.....you really want to believe in this kind of book....

No.....but you act as if there's nothing wrong with this.... how can you accept this book for all it's horrific content and as well as that…but as gods word....

This is the way I see it. You and I are both naturally appalled by things like murder, rape, and child molestation, as is any normal person. We could rightfully say we hate such things. But hating them or being horrified by such acts does not mean they do not exist and does not make them magically disappear.

For argument's sake, let's say Hell is a very real place that does exist. Being appalled by such a concept still will not make it disappear just because we think it's horrible.

You're assuming all Christians just love the concept of Hell and think our enemies are getting their rightful comeuppance by going to such a place. This is not so. We believe it is a real place but still hate it and don't want a single person to go there. I pray almost daily, yes daily, that God does something about this. It's probably a vain attempt but yes, I ask Him almost daily to only make Hell a temporary place and then eventually restore everyone to Him after "serving their time." An eternal Hell is enough to make anyone squirm even if they know they will never go there.

The information about Hell makes up only a small fraction of the Bible even though it is probably the most famous. Even though it is only referred to in a small percentage of the Bible, many make the accusation Jesus and Christians are trying to scare everyone into submission and to accept Jesus due to the fear of Hell. Not so. The Bible talks about God's love, His salvation, and His providence probably 95% more than Hell. That is the reason He wants you to come to Him- because of the good things and because you love Him. Not because you're just so terrified of the alternative. Hell is not meant to scare someone into following Him- it is given as a fact. In other words, a choice is set before all of us. Again, Hell is not a place where anyone ends up on a technicality or on accident. You have to consciously choose to go there by knowing the free offer of Salvation but saying, "No Thanks!"

It's a scary concept and we can sit around and mock and hate it all day long but if it is indeed a real place, wishing it away is not going to work. I hate the concept of Hell as well but God never asked my opinion. This might not be what you want to hear but I'm not going to lie about something that is so obviously stated just to win everyone's approval. This is why Paul often preached in tears. Because he believed Hell was a very real place and didn't want anyone going there- even the people who persecuted him.

And that's all I have to say on the subject.

reply to post by AshleyD


Dude what have you been smoking……how is god loving….and such terms as loving us if it is giving us the choice of hell……that’s like you parents saying…..we love you and if you do what we say you can have and experience all these great things……but if you disobey us…we’re going to send you to jail for ever……

Dude…that’s messed up………… watch this video if you are able to…..

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by andre18


I feel like I'm stuck in a twilight-zone episode. Didn't we discuss all of this in your Hell thread? Hell is separation from God and all things that God is (beauty, peace, happiness, joy, blessings, tranquility). If you reject God, you reject everything He is. So, you go to a place where all the things related to God do not exist. No one is there on accident. You're basically saying, "No thanks! Stay out of my life. I don't want you." So He says, "Ok. I'll respect your choice."

Why is Hell so terrifying? You'll have to ask Him.