New Hampshire GOP Pulls Support For FOX Debate

Originally posted by tacticaljay
Grim,

Here are the answers to your question:

1. Unemployment rate..........well, ummmm, ok 5%
2. Mortgage interest rates........5-6%, unfortunately there is also a record number of foreclosers............
3. Oil...........ok, so it was at about $27 a barrell before the war and now at $100?

Listen, ok, maybe I was just tacking that statement on the end to help drive my point home. It looks as though maybe I over stepped a little!.........
I'm still glad Ron Paul isn't going to be there!

Well we can't have a democrat in office because their fiscal policies suck. They will blow our money away all the while still being in iraq for many years.

As far as the republicans go. Show me one aside from Ron Paul who is going to balance our budgets. If you don't see the importance in getting rid of this debt and such, then you should really start to read up while you still have the time to.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Thanks, grim, but I don't need a history lesson. I fully realize that terrorism didn't start on 9/11.

The fact is, the 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudi. SA is the #2 exporter of crude to the US. We bore the costs of exploration, extraction, and shipment, all the while being the best guest in the world. Then we sold our investment back to them so they could control it.

What could we have done any better?

BTW, this thread has gotten way off topic...

It has nothing to do with the way we conducted ourselves. We were there, and according to their religion, we were not suppose to even step foot on their lands.

You can't look at this in the logical "well we did everything the right way" views, because that is how we see it in our eyes. How they see it is a bunch of non muslims are running around on their holy land for their own purposes.

We should have found a way to do it without having to have american soldiers come over and say "screw your religion, we are getting our oil". Do I believe the extremists were being logical? hell no, thats why they are extremists. But the fact remains they are dangerous. You don't walk into a cage with a wild lion then when it attacks you go "there was no logical reasoning for that!" and get pissed off at the lion. The lion is dangerous and you should realize that it could attack for reasons that don't make sense to you.

These extremists cannot be reasoned with using logical arguments. They see it one way, and only one way, just like any extremist. You must know your enemy to figure out the best way to combat it. If you ignore the way your enemy works, don't be surprised when you don't understand why they do what they do. These are illogical religious fanatics, it will take effort to figure out what their thought patterns are. But if you can figure them out, you can figure out a way to get what you want without pissing them off. THAT is the real goal.

Unfortunately, our government has made no such efforts. Rather then learning the ways of our enemy and think of way to get around them, using our intelligence and skill, we barrel through ignoring any and all consequences..a dangerous strategy which has costed us innocent lives.

reply to post by grimreaper797

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by tacticaljay
Why is it such a bad thing that we are over there for the oil? We need it, they have it, that has been how the world has been since almost the beginning of time. You can say there are other ways to get it........in the end, taking it really is what is happening.

why is it such a bad thing? 9/11, USS Cole, etc. If you believe oil is worth the blood of innocent people, let it be you who stands on the frontlines of such consequences for those actions. You can play armchair warrior all you want, but it is a very different world when you are watching somebody fall from a tower to their death or know people who you will never see again for something they had no involvement in. To you they are just causalties of your armchair war, to me they are friends and family.

Tell me, grim, are you what would be considered an average person? Do you drive a car? Heat your home? Cook your food? Use any of the thousands of everyday petrochemical by-products of oil?

I'll bet you are, and do. So don't try the holier than thou shtick about the people that died on 9/11 were your friends but just a number to us.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
It has nothing to do with the way we conducted ourselves. We were there, and according to their religion, we were not suppose to even step foot on their lands.

That was the wacked-out opinion of some nutjobs, not the official position of their gov't.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
You can't look at this in the logical "well we did everything the right way" views, because that is how we see it in our eyes. How they see it is a bunch of non muslims are running around on their holy land for their own purposes.

Yes we can and ust look at it that way, because that's the way that civilized nations act. Radical extremists do not set our foreign policy.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
We should have found a way to do it without having to have american soldiers come over and say "screw your religion, we are getting our oil".

We never did that. Once again, I offer Saudi Arabia to you as an example.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Do I believe the extremists were being logical? hell no, thats why they are extremists. But the fact remains they are dangerous.

I blame it on the current crop. We've been over there many years before this crap got to this point.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Unfortunately, our government has made no such efforts. Rather then learning the ways of our enemy and think of way to get around them, using our intelligence and skill, we barrel through ignoring any and all consequences..a dangerous strategy which has costed us innocent lives.

To this, I say "Bullcrap"! We have been extremely sensitive to the cultures and wishes of our trading partners. We can't please our enemies. They will perish as a result of their folly.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by jsobecky]

reply to post by jsobecky


I see that your personal connection to the carnage of 9/11 has left you with a blind spot. I realize now, from your post about friends dying, that this is an emotional arena, and not one where logic has a place.

My apologies if I have in any way increased your pain.

I withdraw. The subject on a board is not worth causing additional pain to a fellow human, and someone I think a good person.

NGC2736

reply to post by NGC2736


Thanks, my friend. I'll remember that.

jso

Originally posted by jsobecky
Tell me, grim, are you what would be considered an average person? Do you drive a car? Heat your home? Cook your food? Use any of the thousands of everyday petrochemical by-products of oil?

I'll bet you are, and do. So don't try the holier than thou shtick about the people that died on 9/11 were your friends but just a number to us.

Yea I do use such things, but I don't condone war over it. And if my usage of such things were needed to be decreased for that, I would pay that price. I would cook my food over an open fire like I have done before. Id ride a bike where I needed to go. I'd use that mummy sleeping bag I used all those times I went camping. I'd just use more of my survival gear then I would now.

3,000 lives weren't worth my tank of gas, not on any day. And if those people were anything more than a number to you, you wouldn't be disregarding the idea of "learn your enemies ways" and trying to prevent another 9/11. You ignored what I said and pretty much maintained the philosophy, stay on course. The course is the one we have been on for the past 60-70 years and its what got us to 9/11.

If you want to stick the course then obviously 9/11 wasn't that big a deal to you because if it were, you would be trying to avoid another one, not cause another.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
That was the wacked-out opinion of some nutjobs, not the official position of their gov't.

So ignore the dangerous nutjobs? Kill them if they cause a fuss? Thats what got us to the first 9/11. Id prefer we take a different course of action and try to avoid a second one.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Yes we can and just look at it that way, because that's the way that civilized nations act. Radical extremists do not set our foreign policy.

OK, but the people we are dealing with are not civil or from a civilized nation. Radical extremists do set our foreign policy to an extent. Whether it be a militant one or a strategic one, they do. Our foreign policy is very militaristic right now, and who is the ones that caused that? Radical extremists. They are doing a pretty good job of controling our foreign policy right now.

If you have any interest in winning this war we have started, you will try to figure your enemy out and manipulate them, not try to destroy them by force. Its not a contest to show who has the biggest nuts.

We haven't done anything new since 9/11, we just did it bigger and more often. More bombs, more soldiers, more everything. You know what it is going to get us? More terrorism. Until you face that fact, that reality, things will never change. How do you expect things to change when you refuse to change course?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
We never did that. Once again, I offer Saudi Arabia to you as an example.

Just because the saudi government OK'ed it doesn't mean the people were OK with it, and they weren't. Why don't you look at the reason Osama Bin Laden got the support he did. The reason he declared war on the US. "US troops occupation of our holy lands in saudi arabia."

He pretty much spelt it out.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
I blame it on the current crop. We've been over there many years before this crap got to this point.

BS, its always been to this point. They have been attacking for years, and so have we. They just got more organized as time went on. 9/11 is just another chapter to the war that has been going on for decades. Its been going on before Osama Bin Laden was ever in the picture. Just because the fight hadn't hit home for YOU, doesn't mean people weren't dying from our actions in the middle east.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
To this, I say "Bullcrap"! We have been extremely sensitive to the cultures and wishes of our trading partners. We can't please our enemies. They will perish as a result of their folly.

Good luck with that policy, it did a hell of alot for our country and 3,000 people on september 11th. Sensitive in what way. We put soldiers on our holy land and refused to remove them. We funded these peoples enemies. We overthrew their governments and put in dictatorships.

How much does sensitivity amount to when you are killing their people with smart bombs and giving money and weapons to their oppressive dictators? And you say 9/11 wasn't a result of our actions?

reply to post by jsobecky

Educating Rudy and jsobecky et all: Time to put on your reason and thinking cap.



[edit on 1/7/2008 by QuasiShaman]

[edit on 1/7/2008 by QuasiShaman]

reply to post by grimreaper797

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Yea I do use such things, but I don't condone war over it. And if my usage of such things were needed to be decreased for that, I would pay that price. I would cook my food over an open fire like I have done before. Id ride a bike where I needed to go. I'd use that mummy sleeping bag I used all those times I went camping. I'd just use more of my survival gear then I would now.

That's a nice little weekend camping trip you just outlined there. It won't work on any scale larger than a commune.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
3,000 lives weren't worth my tank of gas, not on any day. And if those people were anything more than a number to you, you wouldn't be disregarding the idea of "learn your enemies ways" and trying to prevent another 9/11. You ignored what I said and pretty much maintained the philosophy, stay on course. The course is the one we have been on for the past 60-70 years and its what got us to 9/11.

But you still buy your gas, don't you? Hypocrite.

And we have learned our enemies ways. They shoot from inside hospitals and schools. They explode IEDs in the marketplace. They saw the heads off of innocents.

We should emulate them?

Oh no, you'll wail. Just understand what drives them to it.

This is where we differ. You are much too happy and willing to hang the blame on the US. The land you live in. That's what I call an apologist. Ready to piss in your own nest for the sake of "understanding" their POV. Disgusting.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
If you want to stick the course then obviously 9/11 wasn't that big a deal to you because if it were, you would be trying to avoid another one, not cause another.

Fifty years of turning the other cheek and failure to react is what got us the reputation of being a paper tiger. It was only when we started fighting back that they realized their game was up.

Originally posted by grimreaper797

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yes we can and just look at it that way, because that's the way that civilized nations act. Radical extremists do not set our foreign policy.

OK, but the people we are dealing with are not civil or from a civilized nation. Radical extremists do set our foreign policy to an extent. Whether it be a militant one or a strategic one, they do. Our foreign policy is very militaristic right now, and who is the ones that caused that? Radical extremists. They are doing a pretty good job of controling our foreign policy right now.

Whatever you say, Ms. Albright.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Just because the saudi government OK'ed it doesn't mean the people were OK with it, and they weren't. Why don't you look at the reason Osama Bin Laden got the support he did. The reason he declared war on the US. "US troops occupation of our holy lands in saudi arabia."

He pretty much spelt it out.

And he has you quaking in your boots. Ready to roll out the red carpet of understanding. Ready to accede to his every demand. Pitiful.

Oh, and QuasiShaman....you can keep your Ron Paul campaign videos to yourself, thanks. I'm not interested.

Thank you for your video. Its an educating experiance for allot of us. There is a wrong and I want to right it. That should be the slogan we here from our representives who are running for the honor of the presidency. Not so much the "change" factor, but being real about the truth and telling us the truth. Being responcible for our actions , yes. Now, I thankk everyone for adding to this thread about FOX news. It seems personel in ways I have not even thought about. But we as people who have the power to place in people who will do what we need to have done to repair the process of our governments actions.reply to post by QuasiShaman

Originally posted by jsobecky
That's a nice little weekend camping trip you just outlined there. It won't work on any scale larger than a commune.

Yea sure, because I'm sure without this technology we have no like cars and heated homes, every human being would die. Please, just because you can't survive without technology and gas doesnt mean that the rest of the world is doomed as well. Some people have taken the time to learn how to live for long periods of time without certain items that would not last in a survival situation.

But you still buy your gas, don't you? Hypocrite.

Can I change the past? Am I going to stop using gas now when it makes no difference? That is aside from the fact that aside from electricity and my truck to get to work, I don't use gas. I don't use the heat even in the winter. But the fact is, this argument isn't about me and how much oil I consume. What it is about is the fact that some of you seem to think this oil is worth death. I would PREFER that we don't go to war over it, but most people don't care. For me to cut the oil I do use at this time would be pointless because I still have to face the same consequences as you for being an american.

Your ideas drag the american name through the mud and give terrorists an excuse to attack us, good job.

And we have learned our enemies ways. They shoot from inside hospitals and schools. They explode IEDs in the marketplace. They saw the heads off of innocents.

We should emulate them?

Oh no, you'll wail. Just understand what drives them to it.

This is where we differ. You are much too happy and willing to hang the blame on the US. The land you live in. That's what I call an apologist. Ready to piss in your own nest for the sake of "understanding" their POV. Disgusting.

You know whats disgusting, your desire to kill people. Thats disgusting. If I don't condoning going to these peoples homes and killing them, Im an apologist. Just because I want to use our intelligence to figure them out and over come them via our cunning and skill doesn't mean Im saying "Its all our fault" and they were right to attack us. Thats stupid. If you are so black and white on this then you might as well not bother discussing it.

Theres more then one way to fight a war. If you can't see that then you are just hurting our country by being stubborn. Its obvious the barrel of a gun doesn't get rid of terrorism, it just radicalizes them even more. If you haven't learned that from our past 60 years in the middle east, you are covering your ears and closing your eyes.

Fifty years of turning the other cheek and failure to react is what got us the reputation of being a paper tiger. It was only when we started fighting back that they realized their game was up.

TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK? wow, do I need to repost my original post in here? Seriously, Im not even reading the rest of your post because its apparent you havent been reading mine.


edit: last year you made the most stupid post I had ever seen, and this year you started it off with breaking that record. So to avoid me deleting ATS on the basis of absurd and stupid posts, Im just going to ignore you.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by grimreaper797]

reply to post by grimreaper797

Originally posted by grimreaper797
edit: last year you made the most stupid post I had ever seen, and this year you started it off with breaking that record. So to avoid me deleting ATS on the basis of absurd and stupid posts, Im just going to ignore you.

Well, if I'm getting an apologist to ignore me, then I must be doing something right.