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What Tribulation?!?!?!

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posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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MM

" arrogant "

I call you arrogant because you, who (not knowing) that God is false, call us deluded. with your eveeeeeerrr arrogant speach.

your not open minded even if you saw miracles. have you even looked at my signature?

would you give the miracles ive seen like cancer cured through prayer a chance?

Some of you guys are like a bullet proof window, nothing gets through, nothing has a chance to get through, and on the other side of the window is a certain lifestyle that wont let it get through.



MM, the proof is in the miracles, the deepnes of creation, the way the body works, man women made for each other, the body parts for specific reasons, the revealed truth by God.

But you keep saying proof because you know God is not going to reveal anything to incredible unsincere unbelievers who wont give anything a chance.


" give me your possesions "

Im a poor man. always will be. All my money is like a bank, my brother needs 20 for gas, he gets it, rent ect...

I dont buy hardly anything for myself. So I have nothing, and green peices of trash mean nothing to me.

possesions dont mean much, you can have everything I own because I have nothing.

Its just money, its just possesions. Your not taking them to death with you, when you die its just you and your soul and God, nothing goes with you.


What if I gained all the possesions of the world, planned for 30 years, saved up retirement money, and then died in a car crash the next day, what does it profit (me)?

Its ok to be dillegent in whatever feild your in, but possesions arent everything.


Btw, mm, even though your arrogance excedes even madness, your a soul of God and I dont dislike you.

peace.




posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 11:19 PM
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sorry MM, I misunderstood you, im incredibly sorry.

If someone leaves the world at the end, then where is the challenge in leaving you a document?

we are not going to give you our adress bank acount ect.. No way.

No sane person would do that.

peace.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 12:57 AM
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Sai Baba is Truth


Originally posted by JesusisTruth
your not open minded even if you saw miracles. have you even looked at my signature?

I did. The story of a young woman who fell ill at the age of 20, was 'miraculously cured' by the 'intervention of St. Gabriel of the Sorrowful Mother' -- only to die once and for all of her sickness at the age of 25! Some miracle.

Entertaining story, though. I liked this bit:


At midnight on February 23rd, 1899, she heard the rattling of a rosary and realized that Venerable Gabriel was appearing to her.

'The rattling of a rosary' - hilarious!


would you give the miracles ive seen like cancer cured through prayer a chance?

You've seen that? Well, I've seen, and heard of, diseases cured, fortunes improved and lives transformed through the placation of demons with offerings of fruit, flowers and poultry, the extraction and eradication of supposedly buried charms and fetishes, through Buddhist meditation and through the intervention of god-men like Satya Sai Baba. I've met dozens of people who swore they saw statues of the Hindu god Ganesh drink milk (some even fed the statues themselves) and others who saw green rays emanate from the heads of statues of Buddha. Another person known to me, the disciple of a famous Cypriot Sufi master, once spoke to a unicorn in his bedroom. How do these differ from the miracles you've seen?


Some of you guys are like a bullet proof window, nothing gets through, nothing has a chance to get through, and on the other side of the window is a certain lifestyle that wont let it get through.

Ah yes, our atheism is just an excuse for our wicked, dissolute lifestyles. And how do you know this? How many of us do you know personally?

In a manner utterly typical of religious extremists, you're making a highly offensive assumption on the basis of nothing but bigotry and prejudice. I wonder if you would dare say this stuff to our faces.


Though your arrogance excedes even madness, your a soul of God and I dont dislike you.

Oh, spare us the mealymouthing, will you? You're not fooling anyone.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by Astyanax]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 02:23 AM
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Bird flu is not a sign of Tribulation.
Viral and bacterial infections alike mutate,evolve and become stronger. Also this is not the first time a disease has been spread and carried through an animal. It's a natural occurance, not necissarily a sign of God.

Your examples of economical crises, again not new. Ever hear of the Great Depression? Again, caused by changing times, greed and corrupt politicians. Nothing new or suprising there.

Also I think food shortages are due to increased population and other man-made and environmental issues, not necessarily a sign from God.

Seriously, a lot of these "examples" you have posted are merely a cause and effect/ action and reaction situations.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 02:29 AM
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Hey MM, I do not subscribe to the conventional rapture/tribulation theory, but if by chance I am wrong and it is noted that I fly up into the clouds or I just transfigure into a being of light, then by all means you may have everything I own. Seriously, write up the paperwork stating so and I would sign it, under stipulation that someone sees me ascend to the heavens or change into another form of being.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by ben91069]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 


I dont go along with alot of this stuff so many preachers and bible colleges come up with to carry out pre millinealism doctrine. I think they are counterfitting. I think many of them are doing it for lucre. There are other reasons for this too.

However I would also like to point out this too your from your quote..


How do you know this? Prove to us that you're telling the truth and not just making excuses for a farrago of nonsense and contradiction dreamed up by ancient, half-savage people who knew next to nothing about the world.


I also dont believe that we are modern non half savages. I believe we are in fact modern savages. YOu look at the manner in which the ancient civilizations which history books so revere, you see so many of them as savage. They had intellects among them but the civilizations themselves were quite savage. Socrates is a clear example of this savageness in what happened to him. A reflection on the savageness of the civilization.
This is being repeated again today by our comercialism..much of it at or to the lowest common denominator in conduct and belief ..in the name of consumerism. By this I mean defining ourselves by what we buy or consume verses what we are capable of knowing or thinking on our own. Yet so many of us even today know so little about the "World" In our intellect today we know the latest jokes, what program is on television, the latest product or gadget to come out to keep us entertained, the popular gods of sports/hollywood to worship and idolize....ete etc..et al. To me all our intellect and knowlege has not made us better people or less savage..it has only made us better consumers. If you like ..many of us are just civilized savages. Whatever civilized means today.
Remember too..comercialism abounded in those days along with religious festivals and holy days.
One of my first hints at how comercialism in these empires worked within the trade routes of the day was from reading, of all things, a book on food. It was titled "Food in History." A good portion of this book had to do with spices carried long the trade /caravan routes to and fro the port citys of those days. Not much removed or far from what is going on today ..albeit in smaller volumes.
One of the large and influential port citys on the caravan routes of those days is a port city still in existance today named Tyre. This city extends from before the days of Alexander the Great ...who besieged and conquered it. It is mentioned of significance in the Bible also as a trading city/port.

Nonetheless..I dont think we are all that civilized..and quite savage in our beliefs and practices. Not all that far removed from the "Ancient savages." We just, in our intellect, tend to so think that we are different.

These "ancient savages " dont seem to be all that far off the mark when they state....nothing new under the sun.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 7-1-2008 by orangetom1999]

[edit on 7-1-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 05:08 AM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 
Tyre was a Phoenician city. The Phoenicians were civilized. The authors of the Old Testament were another story altogether.

You make some valid points, but you spoil the good work with all your finger-pointing. Society - savage or otherwise - is not to blame for the ills of the world. You are. So am I, and the rest of the world's population, taken first of all as individuals and then as groups with a common interest opposed to the interests of other groups. If you don't like society, change your own behaviour. If everybody did that, society would change too - a fact demonstrated by the pill-driven sexual revolution of the Sixties and many other historical events.

You may find this essay instructive. I did. Here's a quote.


Most people subscribe to a different philosophy, a philosophy that is common to Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives, blacks and whites, Christians and Moslems and Jews, environmentalists and industrialists, virtually every social-political group you can think of. That common philosophy is scapegoatism, which basically states that all the world's problems are someone else's fault. People refuse to see how they are contributing to the very problems they are condemning. If each of us would clean up our own acts, many of the problems in this world would be significantly reduced, if not eliminated.

When I read that, I thought instantly of ATS and its multitude of conspiracy theorists all frantically blaming someone else for everything that is wrong in the world.

I thought particularly of one member (let him remain nameless), who by his own admission on various threads is unemployed, obese, deeply in debt with a negative credit rating while still trying to borrow money, lends what money he obtains to people whom he knows are unlikely to pay it back, has taken upon himself the maintenance of a wife and some children of hers from a previous marriage despite having no income, and steals intellectual property via the Internet. He ferociously resents the government and all authorities, doctors, scientists, rich rock and movie stars and just about everyone else who has managed not to mess up their lives as richly as he has his.

As far as I am concerned, this individual, whatever his personal problems and history, is a despicable human being - not because of his behaviour, not because of his attitudes, but because his posts on ATS are all, without exception, attempts to blame somebody else for his troubles and the world's.

If people were only to take responsibility for their own lives, there would be no more conspiracy theories, and sites like ATS would - for better or worse - wither and die.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:39 PM
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To ReginaAdonnaAaron:

I would like to ask you the following, since you are very much interested in eschatology :

Please quote Bible references when replying so that we know where you derive your understanding.

What is the difference between these two verses:

Matthew 24 (RSV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

Matthew 24 (RSV)

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

--

1. Please explain in Matthew 24:21 where it says after the tribulation of those days. What happens after the tribulation of those days?

2. What is the tribulation of those days?

3. On Matthew 24:21, please explain more "The Great Tribulation".

4. What is the difference between "The Great Tribulation" and "The Tribulation of those days?"

Thank you.


edit: seperated the questions


[edit on 8-1-2008 by amitheone]



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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what exactly is being discussed....er argued here.

are these just rationalizations , which could be based on whatever thought patterns each individual can think up to support their own beliefs.

and everyone here realizes they may not be truths that they spout right , just opinion each person has right?

ok with that being said, my opinion is that yes their are a number of things /problems in the world today, some of them are blown out of proportion, and some of them are underreported

I don't really have a problem with the thought that the world may go thru some huge changes in the next several years, (much more than the past couple century's) and these difficult times may resemble biblical prophecy's, but i think it would be prudent to note that even if that happened iit doesn't mean one's beleif in a Supreme being is a fact.

and before the faithful among us retatliate i would ask them this.

I don't believe in a supreme being, i believe we are all created creators of our own ability's and responsibilty's and some realize how to harness this ability better than others, I "pray" all the time and often my prayers are answered simply because i believe they will be (faith) and because i have a good intention behind them. don't think good intention are necessary but i think the energy given off from the heart (the emotions) are the strongest and therefore most "creative".

so i pray , i don't believe in god as a supreme being, and my prayers are answered. but to the faithful they believe in god , they pray for themselves or others, thru God and some or alot of their prayers are answered. both get the results . the problem i see is assuming it must be a "supreme being gets credit for them" to work. when the case could just as easily be that *believing in something as strong as a god was the only thing that would work for you to give you the strength to use these abilities we all have*

but i don't think those that need this belief to have prayers answered are any less intelligent than me, and if something works keep believing it, and if you want to change that beleif even if it works because something else makes even more sense, hold onto that old belief into the new one is strengthed enough , giving you self the option to go back to the old belief at any time during the transition. this will alleviate the fear of change

of course this is just my opinion and what makes sense to me. if someone can convince me others wise, i would change my point of view, but the reasons would have to make sense to me.

p.s and to those that are still saying well how could these changes be known about so far in the future? (hinted at in old scriptures) and so forth. well there are a few possibilitys that i can think of as to how. Namely

i think most prophecy is bunk, an attempt to make money, but i think some is based on the psychic abilities that a few certain people have, i think they are merely "possibilities" , more than random chance things, but options that may occur, and have a good chance to if certain things don't change. i think the emotional imprint of a future tragic event can be strong enough to infringe on people's consciousness and this may or may not be made more "permeable" due to wether these events have already been premediated, or perhaps following likely paths of our history. of course there are others who will have even more possible explanations, it just makes sense to me that saying it is a supreme being is the easiest reponse to those who don't realize we probably don't have the answer because we know a whole heck of a lot less than we may think.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by cpdaman]



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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Astyanax

You lost me here.


Tyre was a Phoenician city. The Phoenicians were civilized. The authors of the Old Testament were another story altogether.


Not sure I understand what you mean or imply about the authors of the Olde Testament and also if you know about the religious history of the Phonecians??
To my limited knowlege of history the Phonecians later became the Carthigenians. Curious as to whether you know about thier religious practices ..especially tword the conclusion of the Punic Wars with Rome...what they were doing religiously to ward off the Roman onslaught.
Curious about this when you label the Phonecians civilized.

You also lost me here about the fingerpointing. Curious once again if you looked in the mirror when you posted that statement.

To my knowlege I did not use the word "society" in my post here. I"ve never liked that word. IT seems to me that many use it to put people or debate points in a block that they can then label for the purposes of thier arguments. Never liked that word society. Was never impressed with the word.
I dont hold much stock in the intrests of what you call "society" as it tends to change like the wind with the latest fashion statements. This trend or fingerprint holds little intrest for me. Hence I do tend to change my behavior.
When I listen to the radio or boob tube I really enjoy a device called a remote controller . With this device I can tune out or turn off the rest of the world. Thus changing my behavior. Choice is a wonderful thing.

Most of my intrests and the rest of the world are different. The world can go its own way as I consider most of what the world has to offer of the lowest common denominator. Not much intrest in it. But that is ok with me.. I just go the other way. I prefer to leave the rest of the world where it is at.
I never cared at all for this default setting type tendency of the world to attempt to put "societys ills" on my shoulders so as to play through by default. As if some of us are automatically guilty for just being who and what we are. No thanks. Not intrested in this. The whorish religion of politics tends to work often on this fingerprint/default setting.

Must make haste here. Can you please elaborate by explaination what you mean by the authors of the Olde Testament and also fingerpointing.

Also have no idea who you are speaking of in your distaste of certain individuals in your post . I am not sure where that part of your post was intended to go.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Thanks,



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Curious as to whether you know about thier religious practices ..especially tword the conclusion of the Punic Wars with Rome...what they were doing religiously to ward off the Roman onslaught. Curious about this when you label the Phonecians civilized.

Sacrificing children? That's not particularly uncivilized, the Greeks and Aztecs did it too.

The fingerpointing is implicit in the suggestion that the media, the government and other powerful groups control us, rather than us controlling them - which is what actually happens, because these organizations and institutions actually use polling and market research to determine what people want and then give them more of the same. So that's what I was talking about. Then, this is a conspiracy site.

The distaste I expressed for a certain individual is very real, but he is not you. If you thought I was alluding to you, I apologize. The person in question authored a rash of posts over a few months late last year but seems to have stopped posting recently. I fervently hope we've seen the last of him; in my opinion, he was a disgrace to the ATS community.



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 03:10 AM
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Astyanax,
No I did not think that you were refering to me in your distaste of someone. Never thought that at all.

As to human sacrafice ...I think we still do this. Just not like in the manner of those historic times. I think we often sacrafice generations to dumbness in front of the boob tube and movies/DVDs. In this manner our thinking is sacraficed and pre issued out to us. No thinking required. A whole generation who have little life experiences but are mostly watchers..not doers or thinkers. Amazing to me the number of people you run across today who have no real life experiences but must describe thinking or morality in terms of a movie they watched or some program on the boob tube. Amazing to here this stuff come from out of their mouths. You can see some of these people post here on ATS/BTS. The next step is to actually sacrafice them as was done in years/centurys/ milleniums past. Some of them seem to be that far gone.

Oh yes..I am aware too that other nations did this ..human sacrafice. Quite common among "civilized nations."

As to polling data...to me this is nothing but a method of pubic masterbation. Pardon the crudity ..but it fits. Polling data is often used not to report trends but to imply silently that if you do not fit this data there is something wrong with you. In this avenue it is used or misused as a change agent to work on peoples perceptions, minds, and opinions. It is Herd mentalilty.
I had been thinking this for years and years as polls became more popular. When the Clinton impeachment was taking place...and whatever that prosecuter ..Starr I think the name was...polls were coming out several times a day..new ones ever week...and polls and polls and polls and polls..ad naseum. To me this was confirmation that my opinion was on the right track. Then all this buisness was over...the polls quickly died out. They had served their purpose...no longer needed.
I am by nature very skeptical of polls..they are to me literally to put people on the string. I am not intrested ..no matter who is taking them.
There are 'big lies" , "Little lies", and then there is "statistics."
Take your pick.

YOu are correct in saying that some of this polling is used to give us what we want ..not necessarily what we need but what we want.
I dont like it when I purchase goods at the various stores and pay cash..and they ask for my zip code. This is polling trends by areas..in what we purchase. I refuse to answer this request. This polling is also done in places like food lion...by this MVP card. This card is used to tie your purchase to you and your address under the guise of saving a few pennys. Same with costco, sams club, BJ and other such stores where you use a store card. Its no ones buisness as to what I purchase ..especially if I am using cash. It is just a method of polling. These cards are not for the purpose of saving you moneys..but compiling informations...data on you ..right down to your address. The method used is polling electronically and under the guise of saving you a few pennys. I often wonder who has access to this data..right down to your address??

No conspiracy here folks!!

I tend now days to watch little television and am moving to listening to very little radio. Not much on there of substance to me. To much fluff and not enough meaningful substance. Also way to many commercials to suit me.
HOwever..I must admit.. ..the commercials are sometimes more intelligent and original than is the regular programming...both on television and on the radio.

Thanks for your reply,
Orangetom

[edit on 10-1-2008 by orangetom1999]



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 04:39 AM
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RAA, I would be interested to learn your views on the tribulation topic but citing source(s) is a prerequisite to a learned discussion.
If your aim is to get through to the ATS population with your views/understanding of "the tribulation", then you really need to cite sources, quote verses, something. Unsubstantiated opinions die pretty quickly here.
Looking forward to your posts.



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 05:48 PM
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I don't believe we are in the tribulation just yet. The birth pangs, yes. But not the actual seven year tribulation and certainly not the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation. It doesn't make any sense. Where is the one world government? Where is the mark? Where is the Antichrist? Where are the two witnesses of Israel? Christians and Jews are not being put to death world wide, there is not a full blown one world economy, there is no one world religion that is saying all must convert, a seven year covenant has not been created and broken after 3 1/2 years, etc. We don't see it because it hasn't occurred.



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by whitewave
RAA, I would be interested to learn your views on the tribulation topic but citing source(s) is a prerequisite to a learned discussion.
If your aim is to get through to the ATS population with your views/understanding of "the tribulation", then you really need to cite sources, quote verses, something. Unsubstantiated opinions die pretty quickly here.
Looking forward to your posts.


The reason for the post really wasn't to discuss/debate the scriptural meanings of the tribulation, but to point out all the signs that are around us NOW. Those who have the ability to see, will. And those who don't, won't.

Most will lean on their own understandings though, so presenting information with scriptures etc. would really be "tossing pearls" as I've learned from other posts where I have done this before.

If it's truth someone seeks, I've got plenty of other sources listed in my profile if people are truly interested in learning more.



posted on Jan, 10 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by orangetom1999
 

Nicely expressed, orangetom1999. I agree with much of what you say, though the only conspiracy I can detect is the one against the general public by 'men of business' that Adam Smith correctly stated arises whenever such men (and nowadays women) meet.

Just one thing I'd like to address:


Originally posted by orangetom1999
YOu are correct in saying that some of this polling is used to give us what we want ..not necessarily what we need but what we want.

I have used polls and market research in that way. I used to work in advertising and, for a time, was what is called an account planner. Account planners use polls and research to study consumer behaviour and find ways to sell them stuff. I don't see too much manipulation in this, just people trying to come up with ads that would lure consumers and products that would attract them. The real trouble with advertising is that it's an intrusive blunt instrument and not very effective at that.

Research is also used to test ad campaigns for credibility, likeability and effectivess (or so we kid ourselves) and to match products better to consumers. Again, marketers are just trying to make the ads as effective and the product as desirable as possible.

I think it is legitimate. You'd do the same (get to know your customers better, make your goods as attractive as possible, be as persuasive as you could) if you were selling apples at a village grocery.

It's really not so easy to make people do things unless they want to cooperate. That is really what marketing and advertising are all about: making people want stuff. Public relations, or public affairs, which is what it is called when the clients are governments, is the same. But no coercion, even of an unconscious sort, is involved; everybody is still free to choose whether or not to buy, or to buy in.

This is especially true of organized religion, which uses all the techniques of marketing and public relations as well as some very effective ones of its own (developed over thousands of years). Again, people are still free to choose what they believe; in fact, it's probably impossible to believe something against your own choice.

The trick is to keep one's head. No easy trick, I'll grant you, when marketers, politicians, candidates and religious boosters are all trying to seduce you. A good rule to remember is: All communications are for the benefit of the sender, not the receiver. If people are manipulated, it's because they volunteer to be.



posted on Jan, 11 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 




No easy trick, I'll grant you, when marketers, politicians, candidates and religious boosters are all trying to seduce you.


That is precisely the word I use...seduce. I agree.

When you become aware of how much of it is surrounding us daily..bombarding our senses...it becomes offensive. Like watching the same re run 5 times a day.

I remember in my younger days driving about town and listening to the radio. The Juicy Fruit gum jingle was constantly being played on this local station. That night when I went into work I stopped by one of the restaraunts to get some gum. Automatically I said.."Juicy Fruit." Walking out of the restaraunt ..I said to myself. "You dummy ...you dont like juicy fruit...you like Doublemint.
They got me that day. I have never forgotten that lesson. I was seduced against my will and over my objections. I'm a "victim."

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 15 2008 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by cpdaman
what exactly is being discussed....er argued here.


Escathology - the study of the end times.


and everyone here realizes they may not be truths that they spout right , just opinion each person has right?


Personal opinions is dangerous. Mainly because it is derived from one's point of view rather than what is written in the Bible. When studying the end-times, its best not to conclude anything yet and one should be up to scrutiny and accept new advances in understanding the end times. One should not close the doors to other revealing and convincing facts about the end times. One should be able to test every view of the end items whether they can stand up to scrutiny and whether it aligns well with the prophecies of the Bible. Otherwise, it is very prone to arguments, each side defending their views.



I don't believe in a supreme being, i believe we are all created creators of our own ability's and responsibilty's and some realize how to harness this ability better than others, I "pray" all the time and often my prayers are answered simply because i believe they will be (faith) and because i have a good intention behind them. don't think good intention are necessary but i think the energy given off from the heart (the emotions) are the strongest and therefore most "creative".


Your prayers are answered just because God loves you. I think you have a good heart.

It is written:

Matthew 5:43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

--

He causes the sun to rise on the evil and good and sends rains on the righteous and unrighteous. He blesses everyone irregardless whether you reject Him or not. God loves you as well for He created you, not exclusive to Christians at all.



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