Iraqi soldier “Caesar” killed three American soldiers as they kicked , beat a pregnant woman

reply to post by Xeros

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So is it your assertion that all of the apples are bad? You don't think that it's important to note the distinctions between those whose behavior doesn't reflect the norm? In this situation, it would appear that the only bad apples were Iraqi, and their counterparts turned them in.

venezuala has already some months back sued CNN for broadcasting lies



CNN is also like Fox now

I will tell you a few things as I can tell you are not American. I was in the Middle East for two years + of my life living with Iraqis, Pakistanis, Indians etc etc... I have never seen an American beat any civilian or insurgents for that fact... and I do not know of one commander who would tolerate their soldiers conducting such activity. BUT

As far as the Iraqi soldiers go......America does not know who they are training and in fact at times are training insurgents themselves....because the Iraqi army is made up of volunteers and the US armed forces has a very difficult time determining who someone is.. I think it is more likely here that an interview might have been taken place and one of these insurgents shot them in the back in a cowardly fashion.

As for you many groups other than Americans kill. In fact insurgent Muslims kill each other all the time...and rape women....and rape little boys...and steal, and kill women and children. Even though they say this is against Allahs law but then they turn right around and praise him for their little victories.

I will tell you this I know many people in various areas muscat, dubai, bahrain, jebel ali, kuwait, iran and they are more scared of these insurgent types than they are any American....so perhaps your view needs to take everything into account before you accept what you read...besides Americas liberal bleeding heart media would be on this issue in a quick second to bash Bush if it were true... So there must be some other circumstances behind it.

ps Abu Ghraib was not a lie and Amercian people punished Americans for it, who will punish the atrocities the insurgents committed....NO ONE!

excellent post manson... keep it up

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[edit on 5/1/08 by masqua]

reply to post by Rilence

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I share a similiar opinion , its american propaganda at best

reply to post by Rilence

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FYI, the US military doesn't have editorial oversight with regards to the media. If there's an imbedded reporter with an American unit, they're not allowed to discuss matters that would endanger lives, but that's the extent that the military has control over the press. The western media for the most part doesn't support the war either, but is generally responsible enough to not make bold faced lies about anecdotal events. They may slant a story one way or another, but putting known inaccuracies out isn't the norm. It didn't work out so well for Dan Rather, and Peter Arnett, when they were found to be full of s#$t.

reply to post by GT100FV

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That is the way to tell the truth..that is exactly what happened and a lot of people especially today think Viet Nams loss was based on BS that their professors and even High school teachers are telling them. Things totally irrellevent to the matter.

I would also comment that Mcnamara was no help to the war and his micro-managing of the war was a serious contributor to our loss.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by birchtree]

[edit on 5-1-2008 by birchtree]

reply to post by sadchild01

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Ah yes, as we all know that only Americans put out propaganda, while the rest of the peace loving world only tells the truth. Does your neck ever get stiff in the position you have your head?

Yes I agree. But pesonally think the term bad "apples" seems a bit 'playschool' considering we are be talking about the death of others, which is a serious issue, not to be tainted with cliched phrases (imo). I'm not debating who's right or wrong, it's just that term that makes me feel that death/war is becoming an obvious meme, and thus being trivialsed.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by Xeros]

reply to post by Xeros

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I can see where you're coming from, but what expression would you feel more comfortable with to characterize minority behavioral traits within a larger group?

"some bad stuff."

Understatement of the year.

My Father was in Nam. Lots of horrible things happened on both sides and not just the Mai Lai massacre. Although getting him to talk about things in detail is difficult as he understandably does not want to relive it.

I wish wars were as easy, evenhanded and fair as they seem to be in the mind of some people that have a sanitized version of reality. Even this administration has stated and condone the use of tactics that border or torture that most people had no idea about.

I guess it's easier to tell a soldier who was actually there that he doesn't know what he's talking about, than actually having the guts to be in his shoes. Maybe we should just turn to the Swiftboat Vets for Truth to get the real story, right?



P.S. For the record I have not called for anyones death, applauding the actions of the Iraqi soldier (we don't even know his motivation yet), nor agreed with the "bloodthirsty" generalizations applied to all Americans.

I just didn't attack the OP nor dismiss the possibility of the story in a hostile manner. It seems that the story does have some merit in spite of the instant write-off.

Will you stop lying to yourself and everyone else.

The American military does not protect a single freedom.

In fact they give up freedoms on joining the services.

America has not fought a single war to protect a single American citizen in over fifty years. Korea? You lost that. Vietnam? Lost that one too.
Panama? you doubled the cocaine supply
Iraq? You killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in 20 years.
Afghanistan? you increased opium production 33% year over year for seven years, heroin is cheaper than milk, way to go hero!

Where, who, what has threatened to take any American's freedom away besides the US Government in the last 100 years?

Germany? No they modeled themselves on America.
Russia? Oh right, you guys couldn't fight them, especially after already losing two wars to tropical villagers.
China? Well hell, every dollar you or I spend China owns, so you lost that one as well, brilliant work!

WWI and WWII? That was europe and they've been fighting each other for centuries.

America has the highest number of prisoners anywhere, child molesters and rapists are released in four years to rape again. Cops taser children and pregnant women, and routinely get away with rampant domestic violence against their own families.

Tell me mr combat boots, who did you protect?

Prevented the United States Government from illegally spying on its citizens?
Of course not.

Stood up and said, "No way" to the patriot act or the illegal war? Nope.

Prevented the DEA from shoving a rifle in a crippled persons face for a plant?
No, your type join them on their raids of people's private property.

Oh lets not forget your greatest failure in the last decade, 9/11.
Great job standing down in the face of an enemy that isn't even shooting at you!

So what freedom did your impotence protect today?

Name one right you protected and name one place it was threatened besides my city, state, or country capital building, where you are too subservient to raise your arms. So willing to lay down your life to protect a millionaire politician or his corporate paycheck writers.

No you can't do anything about political corruption in your own country, you are too busy oppressing third world nations and serving your masters like pitiful dogs.

Why do Americans citizens with a brain not respect you uniformed goons?

Because you earn disrespect with your mentality, your actions, and
your continuous disrespect of the civilian population that raised and fed you.

Your arrogance in thinking we owe you something and that you are actually
doing us some kind of favor earns you the scorn you get.

I see what you're saying and it all relates to psychology. You might want to see this entry in wiki about the "Milgram experiment."



The conditioning of the "Yes Sir" mentality is rife and scientifically proven to work (sadly).

[edit on 5-1-2008 by Xeros]

reply to post by Legalizer

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So the only way that an American serviceman can protect you, is if the Continental United States is invaded by a foreign power, and we're keeping them out of your home? I never said you owed me anything by the way. We risk our lives even for those that despise us.

The OP of this "article" posts common anti-us rhetoric. There is no impartiality on his part. He cheers everytime the dollar drops and says it's due to the hedonism in america.

Just a little bias correction...

The above post makes total sense to me, more than any other thing I've read in this thread so far.

All you have to do is take a look at America. Does anyone think it is okay to beat pregnant women? (I don't see anyone defending that here!)

America is a very tolerant place. However, I don't think any American will sit by and watch outrageous abuse of other human beings. In fact -- that is one reason we were motivated to go to Iraq (as misbegotten as that move was.)

The ONLY REASON this thread resonates with Americans is that we are completely OPPOSED to what these soldiers allegedly did (if it even happened at all!) If we didn't oppose it so much, and weren't offended by the notion that American would blindly accept atrocities -- there wouldn't be any real interest in this thread, nor half the discussion it has provoked so far.

Thanks Birchtree, for adding some real first-hand testimony to the debate.

According to Brigadier General. Mutaa Habib Jassim al-Khazrachi, commander of the Iraqi Army 2nd Division, a preliminary investigation has indicated that the Iraqi soldier in question had alleged ties to militant insurgents and that there were no civilians involved and that the incident took place while a joint troop embarkment was establishing a perimeter in the Ninevah Province for a Command Post

I would say that this is most likely the truth. Once again, often the US military is unaware of whom they are training, including insurgents. Also the Iraqi commanders are not ones to defend US military action against their own people. So I think we are looking at a cowardly insurgent who shot three people in the back.

I would like to add to the OP...If this did happen I think most Americans would agree that these soldiers should be punished. I do not think there is any question about that. War is an ugly thing but the harming of women and children civilians is unacceptable, nobody is arguing that. People in America see our soldiers as people that are trying to do good for other people and are opposed to any atrocities commited against innocent people. So when you see everyone here debating this we are not saying we think that this is ok or that it could not happen....we are just looking at this particular case and weighing the facts.


[edit on 5-1-2008 by birchtree]

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reply to post by Legalizer

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Legalizer quit being a hater!!!! I think you could focus all that energy somewhere it might be useful.

I suggest reading my only thread that nobody replied to....US Darfur conspiracy will come....maybe your genius could help solve questions to some of the problems I have inquired about..besides I need at least one POST besides my own...

[edit on 5-1-2008 by birchtree]

That is the only constitutional way, and you took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution.

You took that oath in a military setting and therefore you agreed to use your military training against any person, foreign or domestic, who is an enemy to the constitution and threatens the constitution.

You FAILED to live up to your agreement, soldier. You FAILED, American, and so did I.

We cannot claim to be men of our word; we are traitors, cowards, and liars.

What we did instead was use money, money that was STOLEN from the Americans that we are sworn to protect, to invade a nation that posed ABSOLUTELY NO THREAT to the American people or to the constitution.

You raped the bank accounts of those that you smugly sit and claim to defend and used the money to kill innocents!

Then, you come on ATS and try to take the moral high ground.

We are killers, you and I. We deserve nothing better than the scorn and rebuke that we get here.

How can you not see yourself for what you are?

Killer. Murderer. Invader.

We make the devil proud, we did his bidding.

And you will never be forgiven until you ask for forgiveness.

You wont realize that you need forgiveness until you recognize the horror of what you have done.

You will never recognize that horror so long as you use your nationalism as a coping mechanism to burry your guilt.

Cavscout,
U.S. Army Cavalry Man, 19DELTA, Armored Reconnaissance Specialist,
Sadr (Saddam) City, Baghdad, Iraq, 2003 - 2004, 2nd ACR

Toujours Pret

[edit on 5-1-2008 by cavscout]