Double standards - where is the consistency, and who's with me?

I'm a relatively new member (as in, I've been on the boards for a matter of months rather than years) and like to think I dip my toe into a broad cross section of the stuff that is posted here.

My question is this.

When a UFO picture is posted in a forum, if it is obviously a hoax, or if there's not any evidence of anything out of the ordinary about it, or if the poster's motives are dubious, it is hounded out of town pretty quickly - either by the mods quite fairly trashing it, or by our own responses condemning it to the waste bin.

This is healthy and as it should be, because it gives more focus to the genuine phenomena - the sorts of things we should be looking at and learning about.

Why, then, when baseless statements are made on the subject of 2012, or the end of the world, is so much respect given to them by so much of the membership? Why do we not apply the same standards of veracity and evidence for claims that we do everywhere else on the board? Why are these areligious topics treated with such reverence?

Recently I've noticed several posters putting down the fact that they've been genuinely disturbed by the claims being made by people about their coming doom, how they must flee to the mountains and start stockpiling baked beans, leaving their loved ones behind if necessary, and so on.

It seems to me this is an irresponsible way to go on - and it bewilders me that people are so quick to acquiesce to ideas that have no evidence to back them up, when elsewhere on the boards we rightly analyse all the evidence to death - which ought surely to be the purpose of these boards.

Please, no more apocalyptic warnings without real firm evidence - and by that I don't mean suggesting critics "google 2012" - that doesn't constitute serious evidence, it's just a listing of baseless apocalyptic warnings from other attention seeking and irresponsible people who enjoy causing other people to panic. To my mind that isn't what these boards are about.

I know I'm not alone in this point of view. It's time to make a stand, I think!

Thanks for reading,

LW

I agree. A lot of claims are obvious BS. Starred. And flagged.

[edit on 1/4/2008 by Blueracer]

well, a photoshopped image of a ufo can be picked apart objectively. Debunking claims rather than pictures is completely subjective.

Originally posted by scientist
well, a photoshopped image of a ufo can be picked apart objectively. Debunking claims rather than pictures is completely subjective.

Fair enough, but the fact that it is harder to analyse a claim does not make it any less worthwhile a thing to do.

By way of example, I might compose a story about a UFO sighting over Southern England at a given time of night in a particular location. I might describe what I saw. People could then offer constructive ideas as to what it actually was, whether they had seen something similar, etc etc. Or they might dispute that I had seen anything at all based on inconsitencies in my story.

There's a world of difference between that kind of post and one with the subject title "2012 - it's all going to end", which simply says something along the lines of "You should all be looking to make a bunker underground by 2012 with enough stored food for five years. 2012 is when the world will cease to exist as we know it, and human kind will be destroyed except for a few elite who will live on the moon until it is safe to reinhabit the Earth".

The difference here is that the second post is entirely abstract, offers nothing at all to substantiate its content, offers no sources for its claims, and is written from the point of view of a supposed authority on the subject without any justification for that authority being given.

If people want to debate Mayan inscriptions about 2012, or the theory of Planet X, fair enough - so long as they give NEW information with evidence to back it up, though it's my view that both subjects are currently stagnant, the former because the proponents of the Mayan end of the world theory have successfully been debunked, and the latter because the Planet X theory is just that, a theory to explain a particular solar system anomaly that thus far has no evidence or proof to back it up.

But what I really want to get rid of is the would-be mystic writers whose witterings masquerade as learned posts when they are in fact baseless fiction, and whose endless testimony seems to me to belong to a different kind of forum to ATS. This place is for reasoned debate, not contrived nonsense. I would have said.

I agree with you completely.

Many years ago, i've personally experienced what happens when people buy into a "the end is coming" belief system, or when they devote themselves completely to a "the end is coming, but we're all gonna ascend" belief system, with an expiration date.

I understand the need for beliefs in some people and know, nothing can be done about that.

But the problem appears, when these people proffess part of their belief system as truth and pretend, it's scientifically prooven.

I'm guessing, this is the part that scares many people - old and obsolete quotes by NASA and scientists, who have in reality changed their mind in between. (Of course prooving this doesn't really help, because then, it's a conspiracy...)

People should be allowed to have their belief systems, but should they be allowed to scare others to death with them? With Planet X you can't have one without the other...

But what can we really do?

So far, you and others have constantly provided enough real facts and logic, to help anyone, who really can think for themselves, to figure out it's all just a bunch of channeled nonsense and a book.

Those, who still want to believe, still can. Their only real problem is the expiration date attached by themselves...

I wonder how many people would still fear Planet X, if they knew the full extent of this belief system...

Not just "Planet X is coming, we're all gonna die!", but "Planet X is coming, mystic vibrations are vibrating, DNA is changing, our pets are turning into crystals and we're all gonna be ascended! Down with reptillians!"

It somehow becomes less convincing, when you look at the entire thing. I don't know why...

Originally posted by LoneWeasel

Originally posted by scientist
well, a photoshopped image of a ufo can be picked apart objectively. Debunking claims rather than pictures is completely subjective.

Fair enough, but the fact that it is harder to analyse a claim does not make it any less worthwhile a thing to do.

agreed, but we're still talking apples and oranges. UFO sightings are debunked after the fact, whereas 2012 is all speculation. Whether you say the world will end in 2012, or not... it's both speculation on a future event that hasn't happened.

I think that when people enter the UFO forum, it's a given that everything is to be taken with a grain of salt, and that UFO topics are usually more at risk to hoaxes and etc then other things. For example, how could 2012 be a hoax? It's an actual date, with actual historical prophecies linked to it (whether our own calculations are correct as to the real 2012, that's another story...)

reply to post by LoneWeasel


There is a huge amount of variety on this site to read. Just about every sort of topic that a person could be interested in.

Why are you complaining?

If you don't like those sort of threads, just don't read them.

Apparently, some people enjoy them, or they would not get the amount of traffic that they do.

Originally posted by Enthralled Fan
reply to post by LoneWeasel

 

There is a huge amount of variety on this site to read. Just about every sort of topic that a person could be interested in.

Why are you complaining?

If you don't like those sort of threads, just don't read them.

I'm not complaining. I'm simply pointing out that fabricating stuff on a topic that some people take so seriously, and believe in so unquestioningly, is irresponsible. If people are allowed to state things that aren't true, we defeat the whole purpose of the message boards. Moreover, we risk making people think and even do crazy things, based on crazy nonsense.

LW

it's imortant to note though, that just by clicking on a thread about UFOs, 2012, reptilians or the hollow earth, you are automatically entering an unspoken/unwritten agreement that states you will take everything with a grain of salt.

reply to post by LoneWeasel


What you are saying here, is that people are not able to make up their own minds what to believe.

I don't think you are giving a lot of people credit here, for having some brains to weed things out on their own. It's up to us, sometimes, to use our own brains and figure out what is fabricated and what isn't.

When you are looking at the threads that you are complaining about, are you showing proof positive to debunk them, by whay of posts with links to all of your evidence? Do you have proof that any 2012 thread is fabricated? Or, is this just your opinion?

I am really rather insulted that a member of this site, being you, has felt a need to take on the burden of deciding for me what I should be able to read here, and what I should be able to believe in or not.

I only have one Mother, and I am quite positive it isn't you. Thank You very much!

Originally posted by Enthralled Fan
reply to post by LoneWeasel

 

What you are saying here, is that people are not able to make up their own minds what to believe.

I don't think you are giving a lot of people credit here, for having some brains to weed things out on their own. It's up to us, sometimes, to use our own brains and figure out what is fabricated and what isn't.

Of course. But the point I make above is that several posters have already openly admitted that they have failed to do so, and it has made them extremely anxious. If you want an example, have a look at this thread here. And the point is, if you make one of the abstract posts I'm complaining about where you don't even bother trying to post any kind of source material or anything, like this post here, you are responsible for the depth of feeling that causes panic in other people - and it's my contention that you are wrong to cause that kind of panic when you're making so little effort to back up your claims.

When you are looking at the threads that you are complaining about, are you showing proof positive to debunk them, by whay of posts with links to all of your evidence? Do you have proof that any 2012 thread is fabricated? Or, is this just your opinion?

It's my opinion. But if I write a post saying "the world is actually a lump of kryptonite covered in camembert" - it's my view that the burden of proof is with me to demonstrate what I say to be fact, rather than on you to prove me wrong. I've already said that I have no problem with debates about specific elements of the 2012 theory - eg the possibility of a Planet X, or the Mayan calendar, or whatever. If you read what I've written above you'll see the posts I'm talking about.

I am really rather insulted that a member of this site, being you, has felt a need to take on the burden of deciding for me what I should be able to read here, and what I should be able to believe in or not.

I didn't do anything of the sort. I pointed out that other people don't have your security of belief. But I maintain that you can't expect people to make up their minds based on the evidence when no evidence is presented. That would make the law courts a fairly pointless entity. Although arguably it would make the justice system work a lot quicker...

I only have one Mother, and I am quite positive it isn't you. Thank You very much!

I didn't mean to mother you, enthralled...you sound like a very well-brought up individual!

LW

P.S - meant to add - Scientist you are of course entirely correct that it is inherent in a site like this that a large amount of salt needs to be carried around at all times - but I think the charm of this site is that in most of the forums people at least make the effort to back up their claims with some sort of research, sourcing or evidence - have a look at Zorgon's efforts, for example. Even if you think what he writes is complete nonsense, you can't fault the effort he puts into it...










[edit on 5-1-2008 by LoneWeasel]

My best advice would be to stay out of the "Skunk Works" and "Predictions and Prophecies" forums, as they're merely speculative. I've yet to see and 2012 threads anywhere else, but I could be wrong.
There is no way to debunk 'ideas'. Ideas and speculative thoughts need no proof and can't be debunked.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by Xeros]

I see no double standard at all. I'm not with you, I'm with me.

Apples & oranges my friend.

UFO's are UFO's because they cannot be clearly seen or explained - they are easier to debunk because many of us can actually recognize the objects as known , if they are real or we recognize the way in which they were created when they are faked. If we don't see how they were faked or we don't have a good explanation for them they become one of the rare unknowns.

2012 is point in time not an object that many have speculated on in the past which has everyone today guessing on what if anything unusual might occur. The hard fact is 2012 happens to be a time of a physical galactic alignment of our milky way that current civilization of man has never seen. Maybe someone can chime in with how many thousands of years it's been since the last such galactic alignment.

Plus the magnetic poles are shifting & the possible temporary loss of the magnetic shield that protects the earth from solar events along with the knowledge of near earth objects coming our way leads many to believe that we could very possibly be in for some trouble or maybe not. Most airline accidents happen when multiple things go wrong and you can argue that there is that potential about our world about the time of 2012. You could argue changes are always happening and you would be right - but these changes haven't been seen for so long there is no history of what occurred last time. All pure speculation of how we will come out of it, but it is enough to make one wonder.

If there was ever a time in the past few thousand years that we were more vulnerable 2012 fits that point and thus you bring in all the religious folks with all of their speculation too. Some say there are references in the Bible & other Holy books that reference this galactic alignment.

If there was an extinction level event about 2012 then you would also have to speculate that if there were Angels, or ET's, advanced beings or some guy running the software called God, that might be a point in time that one of them might come and watch the show or maybe even save a few of us so that we might continue somewhere else or maybe we'll just mutate & evolve in order to survive on whats left of this living rock we call home.

I was able to get my point across in the UFO subject in a couple of sentences - which is why more folks attack that maybe. Much more difficult to debunk or explain something you can't see with your eyes only with your mind.









[edit on 5-1-2008 by verylowfrequency]

reply to post by LoneWeasel


Well...and what you will sugest after that? Maybe closing the ATS site?...
This IS a conspiracy/mistery debate forums, if at the moment it's already almoust impossible to show what ever because it is all "debunked and is a hoax" no matter what, if we stand with your idea, what will be descussed in here? Tell me of a single Conspiracy or mistery that can be proofed with 100% sure! Surprise...You can't! As nobody can! As soon as we ban debates and ideias about what can't be proofed, the only thing that we can do is close ATS or transform it in a simple debate forum about terrorism and politics

If you guys think a little, you will see that for the sake of a healthy debate, the precense of the false "skeptics" , and they are too many in this place, are far worst then some childish ideia posted by some one!
The false eskeptics are in the end blind Belivers also. No matter what can be presented to them as true facts or scientific data, they still mantain always they'r skepticism, and that my friend...is a beliver!!!
Many topics are trashed and totaly spoiled by that kind os members.
In a general way, i do not see the "normal" childish belivers beeing so negative as the other group.
But the "masked" skeptics are always everywhere using a very hard tone, beeing extremly violent with no reasons, and that is what is kiling this place slowly.

Originally posted by Umbra Sideralis
reply to post by LoneWeasel

 

Well...and what you will sugest after that? Maybe closing the ATS site?...
This IS a conspiracy/mistery debate forums, if at the moment it's already almoust impossible to show what ever because it is all "debunked and is a hoax" no matter what, if we stand with your idea, what will be descussed in here? Tell me of a single Conspiracy or mistery that can be proofed with 100% sure! Surprise...You can't! As nobody can! As soon as we ban debates and ideias about what can't be proofed, the only thing that we can do is close ATS or transform it in a simple debate forum about terrorism and politics

I take your point, Umbra, and yours too verylowfrequency. But with respect to you both, I think you're slightly shifting the focus of my argument away from what I actually said.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that if it can't be proven, it shouldn't be posted. Of course that would mean nothing would get posted at all. I'm not expecting proof. What I AM expecting is evidence, in whatever form, properly researched posts, ideas backed up by some kind of theory - rather than abstract thoughts or ideas. I don't even have a problem with people who give us their thoughts on what might happen - so long as they don't state it as fact.

As I've said several times in this thread, I don't have a problem with specific or multiple factors in the 2012 theory being debated, even if they are to a large extent speculative.

My problem is with threads that are started by people who purport to be authorities, mystical or otherwise, on what is going to happen, yet offer no evidence that they ought to be regarded as an authority - be it scientific or spiritual or whatever - or indeed any evidence that what they are stating as fact is actually true.

I am then bewildered by people responding with "yeah, you're right" - and concerned by people who claim they are panicking as a result of what is being stated.

LW

Okay,

I get your point, but this is not a university and anyone can speak. Besides much of the subject matter here is much just speculation, but without speculation which brings about discussion we would never learn any thing new that was previously unknown to man. I often make quick reference without taking the time to look something up. Such as I did in my above post. I wrote several thousand years because I couldn't remember and would have lost track of my thoughts had I taken a half hour to look it up.

Everyone gets to create themselves as they see fit, just like when you go to a bar. Some guys are full of it, and you listen or not to them as you see fit. Others might be a genius and thus you learn to give them more credibility. Or you get two different mechanics telling you two different things about one thing that's wrong with your car. You have to decide which one is more likely right from what you believe & take the risk either that or get a book on your vehicle and spend a few hours reading yourself. The bar doesn't have a rule that says only certified mechanics may drink or speak there and this site doesn't discriminate either.

At least that's the way it is for me, I always have looked at BBS's, and now web sites just like bars. Maybe someone else has a better analogy.

That's the nature of all places in the world & even on the Internet & your asking for stricter guidelines of who can post what - then you'd have to take that up with the admin here.

Sometimes it really frustrating to listen to stupid or lazy people post, but we all or stupid or lazy to someone somewhere. So, you must learn what to read & what not and remember your always have the ignore button to make certain posters ramblings invisible to you.










[edit on 5-1-2008 by verylowfrequency]

People are constantly using bad evidence as proof, that Planet X exists.

If nothing else, it is important to point out flaws in this, or any other so called "evidence", to allow people to come to a logical conclusion.


But, as LW has stated, there are always people, who can get sucked into a belief system, especially when they see many people talking about it and agreeing on it.

People with emotional problems are much more likely to fall for this. And they are the ones, for whom the consequences can be the worst.


Maybe most can believe all this, without becoming paranoid or depressed, but there are always people, who can't.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by deezee]

Originally posted by verylowfrequency
Besides much of the subject matter here is much just speculation

Most of us understand that, yes.. But there are some, who don't.
Especially when it is proffessed as fact, which most believers do.


Since it would seem, most of us agree it's a speculation, where is the problem in labeling it as such? Just so that people don't get confused..

[edit on 5-1-2008 by deezee]

reply to post by deezee


Well when it comes to the point that you believe it's that bad, do what I do and just look at it as entertainment and feel lucky that you are on a higher level of thought.

But what do I know I'm just a paranoid schizophrenic out having some fun at the virtual bar full of delusional cyberfreaks.

[edit on 5-1-2008 by verylowfrequency]