Hitler and Himmler: Who Planned the Holocaust?

Part five - Shoah

On the 1st of October Himmler received an urgent request from Globocnik requesting a meeting to discuss the proposals that he has received regarding the Jews in the Lublin district. Hoppner again writes to Eichmann on the 3rd seemingly to request clarity on the orders, “Was the goal to guarantee them permanently the sure promise of life or was it to exterminate them completely?” (source as with other Hoppner quote). Himmler and Globocnik meet in Berlin on the 13th and building work at Belzec begins soon after. On the 17th Globocnik meets with Hans Frank to discuss the clearance of the Jews from the Lublin. After the war, under interrogation, Frank claims that they only discussed moving the Jews further East.

On 23rd October all Jewish emigration from Germany is prohibited. Two days later, Erhard Wetzel, an assistant of Alfred Rosenberg, writes to Hinrich Lohse (Reichs Commissar for Ostland), to recommend that the personnel of the T4 unit be deployed to assist in the construction of the ‘facilities’ in the East to deal with those Jews unable to work. Vans are used to kill Jews in the East using bottled carbon monoxide, the method while effective is unable to handle large numbers.

It is worthy of note that there is no record of any instances where a member of these squads were in anyway punished for refusing to participate in the murder of civilians. Although most would argue that they were under orders, very few accounts confirm the argument that they were forced to participate. Many though, saw it as their duty to Hitler and to the German people to rid Europe of the ‘bacilli of Jewry’. As one Krakow police official was to testify, “There was great hatred against the Jews; it was revenge, and they wanted money and gold. Don’t let’s kid ourselves, there was always something up for grabs during the Jewish actions. Everywhere you went there was always something for the taking.” (p169, Masters of Death, by Richard Rhodes)

On the 20th November 1941 Himmler telephones through a message to Heydrich from The Wolf’s Lair, Hitler’s war HQ in Eastern Prussia,“Jewish transports from Berlin. No Liquidation.” By the time Heydrich passes the message to Riga it is too late.

Karl Jager, Commander of Einsatzkommando 3 (sub unit of Group A) reported on 1st December 1941, “I can confirm toady that the objective of solving the Jewish problem has been achieved.” ((p147 SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp), “The jews were transported to the place of execution in groups of up to 500 with gaps of at least 2km.” (p28 The Lake, the Villa, the Meeting)

In December 1941 140 Russian prisoners of war are driven to a barn in the village of Papovka and burnt alive. Just outside Leningrad 150 POWs are first tortured and then shot.

At the end of December 1941 Hitler is rarely seen in public, spending most of his time at the Wolf’s Lair. He hasn’t held a meeting of his cabinet since 1938 and has delegated the day to day running of Germany to Hans-Heinrich Lammers, Field-Marshall Keitel and Martin Bormann. By all accounts Bormann dominates all meetings and controls communications to Hitler. As the genocide increases he restricts Himmler’s access to Hitler.

With the US entrance into the war Hitler and his subordinates found themselves with a prophecy to fulfill. In a speech at the Reichstag on 30 January 1939 Hitler had said “I want today to be a prophet again: if international finance and Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, the result will be not the Bolshevization of the earth and ..the victory of the Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish voice in Europe.” (p70, Auschwitz by Laurence Rees). To Hitler and the fanatics of the SS, the Freemason leaders, Churchill and Roosevelt in alliance against Germany was a confirmation of a Zionist conspiracy against Germany. As Heydrich had put it in a meeting with Dr Carl Burckhardt of the Swiss Red Cross in late 1939 “The Freemasons are the instrument of Jewish vengeance…should the millennial task of the Fuhrer not succeed then everything will be revealed, then triumphs will be celebrated with orgies of cruelty, beside which the rigour of Adolf Hitler will appear very moderate.” (p129-30, SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp). For Heydrich the annihilation of the Jews was a service to mankind, a dirty job that someone had to do, for Heydrich, the alternative was much worse.

By the end of the year, there have been 41 transports of Jews from the Greater Reich, only 6 of these transports are liquidated on arrival, the rest are ‘settled’ in the already overcrowded ghettos. Disease and starvation were widespread. In POW camps, two million Red Army soldiers had died by starvation, disease, execution or by brutality.

In November Himmler had been forced, by growing numbers, to institute facilities to care for those men, like Blobel, who were mentally disintergrating. Throughout the killing squads mental breakdowns were rife, the result of having to kill men, women and children. According to August Becker, who helped develop the mobile gassing vans, “Himmler wanted to deploy people who had become available as a result of the suspension of the euthanasia programme…specialists in extermination by gassing…the Einsatzgruppen in the East were increasingly complaining that the firing squads could not cope with the psychological and moral stress of the mass shootings indefinitely. I know that a number of members of these squads were themselves committed to mental asylums and for this reason new and better methods of killing had to be found.” (p167 Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes)

On 18th December 1941 Himmler meets with Hitler, in his diary, Himmler notes suggest that they had agreed that Jews are to be shot as partisans (see fpp.co.uk...) . Since at least September the SS had been operating a training course with the motto “Where there is a Jews there is a Partisan.”

On 20th January 1942 Reinhard Heydrich hosts the Wannsee Conference and announces to the party the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. The meeting is organized and hosted by Reinhard Heydrich with the assistance of Adolf Eichmann, with some minor Party officials in attendance, their superiors having sent their apologies and representative of the SS and SD. After initial formalities, the meeting takes a little over an hour and a half, much of that time is taken with discussing whether half- and quarter-Jews should be included in the deportations.

The Wannsee Protokol, the minutes of the meeting, detail the matters discussed, only 30 copies were ever produced and only one copy, numbered 16 survived the war. Heydrich begins by defining his own responsibilities as presented to him by Hermann Goering “The wish of the Reich Marshall (Goering) to have a draft sent to him concerning organizational, policy and technical prerequisites for the Final Solution of the European Jewish question makes it necessary to ensure in advance that the central organisations involved be brought together and their policies properly co-ordinated.” (From the translation of the Wannsee Protocol, reproduced in The Villa, the Lake, the Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution, by Mark Roseman).

The Protokol makes for chilling reading, especially in retrospect, though extermination is never explicitly mentioned, no plans for the Jews are discussed beyond their transportation East, no plans were made of how to feed them or care for them. They were simply going East, since the T4 programme, where the mentally ill and disabled were transported over the border to Poland from Germany to be ‘euthanized’, no-one at that meeting could have been in any doubt as to what going East would mean.

With matters concluded, the meeting closed, the participants retired for brandy and cigars. In March 1942 the killing facilities of Operation Reinhard, at Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec, as well as at the Concentration Camps of Auschwitz, Chelmo and Maidenek, commenced the wholesale murder of the Jews.

Before I continue in this thread and move onto discussing the landscape of the holocaust, those who were involved in its planning and some of the reasons why it occured, I want to take a more personal detour. Not because it adds to the content but because writing the above essay has altered my perception, on this and many other things.

In common with many of the subjects that I have studied over the years I was attracted to the SS through a fascination not only with man’s capability for violence, but also the choices that face us through life that can lead us onto a path of good or one of evil. In modern life, without a strong social support system it has become harder for individuals to be steered along a straight path and it can be even harder for those who err to find their way back through redemption. We have as a species, lost much of our willingness to forgive. As our children engage in murder of strangers and each other, my desire to understand these concepts has increased. There was a time in my life when I was confused and without direction when I could have taken a different path, when I could and perhaps wanted to hurt others, thankfully I was able, through hard work and self-analysis to find the peace within myself that eradicated these feelings from my psyche.

For this reason and others it has always been my greatest fear that one day, through circumstances beyond my control I would be handed a gun and told to kill another human being. This is why I have sought to comprehend the holocaust in all its gory detail. I have looked at countless photographs of the murdered, of the bodies of children laid out, their eyes no longer seeing, their suffering over, all promise lost. And though it has given me pain it has never truly touched my being.

As I was compiling information for this thread I was browsing through photographs and I came up on a series I had never seen before. As I glanced at the pictures, seemingly no different to the hundreds I had seen before of women stripped naked awaiting their execution, in the grainy black and white their flesh burning bright white, I saw something amongst them. I drew the photograph closer to my eyes and there they were, clinging to the naked bosoms of their mother’s, clasping a hand or enveloping a leg. Children and babies. And, yes I had always known that children had been murdered by the Einsatzgruppen, by the SS and others, but I had never felt transposed within that scene myself. I had never considered what it would feel like, I had always distanced myself, consciously or otherwise, I had always feared that I would be the killer not the killed. And while I still would rather die myself than kill another human being, I wonder how I could ever protect my child from that. And, I know that I couldn’t, just as they couldn’t. That the fine line that exists between victim and victimiser is one merely of chance. An accident of birth, a question of being in one place and not another.

When I became a mother, I realised that there is something that unites all mothers. Human and animal. The desire and willingness to put your life before theirs. I am haunted now by this picture, which is why for a time I had to withdraw myself from this thread, because it was all to real, all too personal, all too horrible to contemplate. I feel and have always felt that my ability to look at horror without it damaging my mind was a gift, a strange gift but still a gift. I have not shied away, I have borne witness and fought for the memories of those who should never been forgotten. But now, more than that I hope and will endeavour to ensure, that my son, will never to be handed a gun, or ever be placed before one. World war two marked the beginning of half a century of actions that placed none combatants in the firing line, that has seen throughout the world children become the victims of war, murdered, brutalised and made to carry guns and participate in murder themselves. This has to end. I cannot wave a magic wand and bring peace to the world, but we in ourselves can stop this by holding those who proliferate these ‘wars’ accountable, by raising them up to scrutiny, by no longer listening to their excuses for victimising the innocent for the profit of the few.

The holocaust had nothing to do with revenge against the crimes real or imagined, committed by the Jews, it had nothing to do with a Zionist conspiracy to rule the world, it had everything to do with money, profit and greed, and how easily we, as human beings, can be convinced of the necessity to murder those who seem different to ourselves.

KT

KilgoreTrout, I will defer to you as the expert in this subject as you have done your homework.

I have a couple of problems with the timeline but maybe they can be worked out.

I'm a structuralist in thinking of the Holocaust. I do believe the Nazi had every intention of ridding Germany of Jews along with other sub-human categories. In this line of though, it would be intentionalism, but only within the confines of Germany proper.

The Germans set up a series of camps in the mid to late 30's which were concentration camps. This is different than the death camps. Dachau would be an example of this type of camp.

Political prisoners, communists, union leaders, and people of different religious beliefs were held in these camps for any number of crimes. Some were allowed to finish their sentence and leave and there were some deaths for various reasons. But no deaths on the massive scale.

Once Germany started the war, objectives and goals got sidetracked due to unexpected ease of victory. The Russian champaign started out well and then reality set in when a small nation attacks a much greater nation. The numbers of prisoners and the total area conquered was overwhelming for any strategic planning, even planning by Germans.

End of story, many people died and Germany lost.

The time lines up to the Russian invasion you laid out seem good. The exception being that the Einsatzgruppen were tasked with killing Communist Commissars on the spot and also killing basically all inhabitants, including Jews, in smaller towns and rural areas, which proved later a large loss of potential anti-Russian allies. This would indicate that a decision was made by someone to start the "final solution" before the actual "final solution" conference was held. Or would this be considered part of Hitler's Lebensraum program.

In regards to the Wannsee Conference. I believe the German leadership believed they had a great plan on paper but the results were far above what they ever considered and where totally overwhelmed with results. This was leadership of a basic small nation that had double to tripled the population it oversaw in a short period of time. At a minimum, quadrupled it's land area while fighting a two front war. The logistics involved for everything would be difficult, at best, in peace time; and a disaster waiting to happen in war. With these realizations hanging on the upper Nazi leadership, hard decisions had to be made.

I believe what the Germans finally ended up with was nothing more than an extension of the original plan of Intentionalism towards ridding Germany of Jews and non-desirables, over the new territory they acquired. Now this could be call structuralism in that it just happen and the pieces were already in place.

Once this decision had been made, now it makes sense to build more and larger camps for extermination. The concentration camp system was already in place with more of these slave labor camps to help with the war effort developed.

There just seems to be a disjoint of the Russian invasion, with German Einsatzgruppen actions and then a later meeting about a final solution. It just seems that the Wannsee conference was just paperwork telling everyone what had already been determined and what was going to happen.

What are your thoughts....

Thank you for your post, while i do not consider myself an expert, I feel I still have some way to go in that respect, I will try and help you to resolve your questions.

Originally posted by hinky
I'm a structuralist in thinking of the Holocaust. I do believe the Nazi had every intention of ridding Germany of Jews along with other sub-human categories. In this line of though, it would be intentionalism, but only within the confines of Germany proper.

I too agree with the structuralists in terms of what I call 'white northern european jews'. In terms of the actions of the East I would further sub-divide those victims into slavic peoples and eastern jews or Yiddish speaking jews. I believe that with the latter there was still some element of structuralism, but it is my opinion that the slavic people's were, certainly by the SS leadership, intended to be murdered, even if not by force, certainly by starvation and forced labour from a much earlier stage.

Originally posted by hinky
The Germans set up a series of camps in the mid to late 30's which were concentration camps. This is different than the death camps. Dachau would be an example of this type of camp.

Political prisoners, communists, union leaders, and people of different religious beliefs were held in these camps for any number of crimes. Some were allowed to finish their sentence and leave and there were some deaths for various reasons. But no deaths on the massive scale.

Dachau was opened for the sole purpose of accommodating enemies of the Nazi regime. It had been prepared in advance and began recieving inmates the moment the Nazis took power. Political and ideological opponents, the clergy, intelligensia were systematically rounded up and incarcerated. As the criteria of what constituted an 'enemy' was extended so the demand for more camps increased - homosexuals, prostitutes, syphlitics, the unemployed etc. Each new round of persecution required an expansion of the camp system.

The purpose of these camps was imprisonment, at no time were the camps in Germany meant for extermination, simply for the concentration of enemies. Many were released, in quite an arbitary manner at times. There were no fixed sentences, so the prisoners did not know whether or if they would be released which was difficult for morale. What developed was a system where punishments was meted out for insubordination, attempting to escape, or for any manner of other offences. This system soon developed into one of brutality and as many of the inmates were old and sometimes infirm there were deaths. Additionally, as time went on corruption amongst the SS who staffed the camps, as well as amongst the 'priviledged' prisoners, the Kapos, who assisted the SS. This led to poor conditions and decreases in food rations, so there were deaths by this means too.

Originally posted by hinky
Once Germany started the war, objectives and goals got sidetracked due to unexpected ease of victory. The Russian champaign started out well and then reality set in when a small nation attacks a much greater nation. The numbers of prisoners and the total area conquered was overwhelming for any strategic planning, even planning by Germans..

First of all came the occupation of Poland which is highly significant in the genesis of the holocaust. Though Hitler only briefed his Generals of the Wehrmacht a few weeks in advance, the SS and in particular Reinhard Heydrich, had been laying plans for some considerable amount of time. The SS (and those agencies that fell under Heinrich Himmler's jurisdiction) were issued with lists of those people that were considered an immediate threat to the Nazis plans. Although the following quote (from an SS officer) refers to the Barbarossa, the same system applied in Poland:

"As a group leader I was sent supplementary documentation. By far the most valuable was a slim little book, part of a limited, numbered edition, which I never let out of my sight. The typeface was tiny...the paper extra thin, in order to pack the most information into the smallest possible space...It consisted of lists, including the names of every active member of the Communist party...all the non-party intelligensia, and listings of scholars, teachers, writers and journalists, prests, public officials, upwardly mobile peasants, and the most prominent industrialists and bankers...addresses and telephone numbers...There were additional listings of relatives and friends, in case any subversive scum tried to hide, plus physical descriptions, and in some cases photographs." (p5, Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes)

I similar list was compiled for England, and many of those who were recruited for the Einsatzgruppen thought that they were reporting for training in preparation for the invasion of Britain.

Some of these people were rounded up and sent back to Germany to work as forced labour, others were executed on the spot. Additionally, ethnic poles or those of slavic descent were moved further East to the Lublin district and the Polish Jews were herded into ghettos, such as those at Lodz and Warsaw.

Originally posted by hinky
The time lines up to the Russian invasion you laid out seem good. The exception being that the Einsatzgruppen were tasked with killing Communist Commissars on the spot and also killing basically all inhabitants, including Jews, in smaller towns and rural areas, which proved later a large loss of potential anti-Russian allies. This would indicate that a decision was made by someone to start the "final solution" before the actual "final solution" conference was held. Or would this be considered part of Hitler's Lebensraum program.

This is where Generalplan Ost becomes significant. The purpose was to re-Germanise those lands that were lost at Versailles and comprised under the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. It is also worth studying the various partitions of Poland under Otto von Bismarck to fully comprehend the thinking behind the concept of 'Germanisation'. The initial purpose, or the strategic purpose was to provide a 'buffer' against Communist Russia, however, as is clearly stated in Mein Kampf the long term plans of Hitler did involve the invasion of Russia, up to at least the Urals with 5 to 10 years. In the meantime, those slavic/ethnic Poles who were deposited in the Lublin district were there, ostensibly to dig anti-tank ditches to prevent possible incursion by the Soviets.

Himmler's SS therefore spent considerable time herding various ethnic groups around Poland between the invasion and occupation of Poland in September 1939 and the invasion of Russia in May 1941. Jews to the ghettos, ethnic poles and slavs to Lublin and those considered Germanic enough, to work in civil projects in the Reich. At the same time from outside of Germany, those of direct German descent were encouraged to return to the Reich where they would be given homes, land and employment. Many of these Germans had left Germany at the time of the depression or had been resident in former German colonies which were taken from Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Those who were less affluent were placed in holding camps under land and homes could be 'freed' to accommodate them. Many of those who ran the Auslander Org were themselves overseas Germans, Rudolf Hess (born Egypt), Alfred Rosenberg (Tallin) and Ernst Bohle (Bradford in England).

to be cont'd in next post.

Originally posted by hinky
In regards to the Wannsee Conference. I believe the German leadership believed they had a great plan on paper but the results were far above what they ever considered and where totally overwhelmed with results. This was leadership of a basic small nation that had double to tripled the population it oversaw in a short period of time. At a minimum, quadrupled it's land area while fighting a two front war. The logistics involved for everything would be difficult, at best, in peace time; and a disaster waiting to happen in war. With these realizations hanging on the upper Nazi leadership, hard decisions had to be made.

I personally believe that the conference serves a single purpose and that was to share the burden of responsibilty. As I hope my posts have demonstrated the extermination was already well under way. There was no need to plan, the plans had been prepared by Heydrich and Himmler. The meeting merely served to bring other agencies, particularly the Party officials in line with the planning. Hitler's greatest concern with the deportation of the German Jews were that they were assimilated into German culture. There were those who had married Germans, there were the off-spring of those marriages, the grand-children sometimes - these people were classified as halbe juden (half jews) and mischling (quarter jews). Hitler felt that the deportations would create resistence and negative morale. Of the 90 minutes that the meeting took, the majority of this time was spent debating whether these half and quarter jews should be included in the deportations.

So IMO the meeting served not to lay out the plan, but to present the plan and gain the co-operation of the other agencies within the Nazi Party system. And, for those present to ensure that any Jews that were left behind due to their aryan affliations were left unmolested. I do not have a reference, but there is a quote from Goering, who when told that one of his subordinates was a jew, replied "I decide who is a Jew here". There were a number of Jews, half and quarter Jews within the Nazi infrastructure. Eichmann himself came up with a solution to the problem of some of these people of part-Jewish descent of forming a special SS unit for them. The idea was to conceal from the rest of Germany that Jewishness was not really an issue if you were otherwise assimilated. One of Hitler's mentors, Professor Karl haushofer was himself married to a Jewess, the daughter of a senior Bavarian council official. Hitler would always greet her with great warmth and kiss her hand. Their son, Albrecht (a half Jew) was Hitler's Confidential Advisor on Foreign Affairs.

As I have tried to demonstrate in my 'essay', there were many members of the Nazi infrastructure, who were not SS members, who were applying pressure on Himmler and Heydrich to 'rid' the Reich of the Jews. Heydrich is reported by his wife Lina as describing himself as the 'garbage man' of the Reich. I think that for Heydrich Wannsee was his way of ensuring that those who were forcing his hand towards the genocide of the German jews were held equally responsible. That said, it is obvious that Heydrich and Himmler felt no such compunction when it came to the slavic peoples and the yiddish speaking Jews of the East. These people were not even worthy of his consideration, they were simply the untermensch (sub-human) and pest that needed to be eradicated

Originally posted by hinky
I believe what the Germans finally ended up with was nothing more than an extension of the original plan of Intentionalism towards ridding Germany of Jews and non-desirables, over the new territory they acquired. Now this could be call structuralism in that it just happen and the pieces were already in place.

Once this decision had been made, now it makes sense to build more and larger camps for extermination. The concentration camp system was already in place with more of these slave labor camps to help with the war effort developed.

The Aktion Reinhard camps were purpose built for mass extermination and every effort was made to ensure that the victims would be unaware that they were facing their deaths. The stations that they arrived at were brightly painted and bedecked with potted geraniums. This was not only for the benefit of those to be murdered but also to retain a sense of the SS carrying out an essential service to Germandom. Both Himmler and Heydrich are on record as stating that genocide was beneath them. This veneer of respectibility helped them to retain this belief. No such 'dignity' was afforded the peoples of the east.

The concentration camp system on the other hand were to serve the industrial and resource needs of the Reich. These were primarily labour camps, with the exception of Auschwitz, Chelmo and Maidenek, they were not involved in the extermination of the Jews. However, those camps in the East, increasingly and even more so after the Soviet invasion suffered from a lack of supplies. Food rations became increasingly limited, a situation that was further exacerbated by the corruption of those that were n charge of their care. Food and funds were misappropriated for use in the black market for personal profit. Brutality also steadily increased as the pressures to meet targets and quotas intensified which led to a greater amount of deaths within the concentration camp system.

Originally posted by hinky
There just seems to be a disjoint of the Russian invasion, with German Einsatzgruppen actions and then a later meeting about a final solution. It just seems that the Wannsee conference was just paperwork telling everyone what had already been determined and what was going to happen.

I hopefully have, in very long winded way, explained this. There are a number of inconsistencies that intrigue me, the ones you outline included and no one has as yet properly addressed them in my opinion. It is clear to me that the Jews of Germany, or the white northern european jews were expected to leave and that despite vigorous attempts to facilitate emigration it simply did not happen quick enough, this combined with German aggression and greater and greater economic constraints led to the holocaust. I am interested in those elements that exacerbated the situation, and whether that exacerbation was intended to drive the Nazis to commit genocide. The actions in the east are to me a seperate genocide. There are still many questions that remain unanswered.

Thanks.

The Wannsee conference is not really that well documented. What notes from the conference are just one copy of rough note and a set of sanitized notes from Eichmann, I believe. At that point of the war, the term you used of "sharing the burden of responsibility" is probably a very good point.

I'm sure some people will think that in Jan of 1942, Germany had not lost a major battle yet. What reasoning would think Germany would lose. Moscow had turned bad for the Germans, but the population did not know it yet. The USA had just entered the war and nothing was of consequence over that. (While this is outside the time frame in question, within a few of months, Rommel will be stopped in Egypt.) Two decisive actions, in the first 6 months of 1942, set the direction for the remainder of the war. Those Germans that had traveled to the USA knew of her industrial power, as the Japanese Naval leadership did.

Some Germans knew, even in Jan 1942, that if they were perform the final solution, time was not on their side anymore. Not with Russia taking the full might of the German Military and stopping it, not with the USA becoming fully mobilized and able to use a reinvigorated England as a fighting base.

Hitler had ideas of a 'final solution' to the Jewish question at the time he first joined the German Workers' Party, before he became their leader. While still working for the new German army under Captain Mayr, Hitler was ordered to reply to a letter from a fellow trainee in the education unit requesting information of the Jewish menace.

It was replete with denunciations of the Jews that would become all too familiar: "He burrows into the democracies sucking the goodwill of the masses, crawls before the majesty of the people but knows only the majesty of money...His action result is racial tuberculosis of the people." The anti-Semitic program, he concluded, should start with legal attempts to deprive Jews certain privileges on the grounds that they were a foreign race. "But the final aim must unquestionably be the irrevocable Entfernung of the Jews." This word could be translated as "removal" and merely mean expulsion from Germany but it is more likely he meant "amputation," that is, liquidation of Jewry.

This was Hitler's first known political document and for the first time he had succeeded in transforming his hatred of Jews into a positive political program.

Toland, John. Adolf Hitler pg 73-74

[edit on 19-6-2008 by TheComte]

[edit on 19-6-2008 by TheComte]

reply to post by TheComte


The letter was written by Hitler at the request of General Luddendorf, who was at that time taking a mentors interest in Hitler and in charge of the Reichswehr. But there is a little discrepency in the reports of why and to who it was written. I think it may have been part of his cover, but that does not mean that he didn't believe in the words he wrote, just that the background story isn't that cut and dried.

Hitler had been instructed to infiltrate groups that were believed to be involved in covert bolshevik activities (whatever that may mean). By the time he wrote that letter he had already 'infiltrated' the DAP and made the acquaintance of Anton Drexler. The views expressed are very much akin to Drexler's own publication on anti-semitism, which spoke of an 'unemotional anti-semitism'. Hitler is merely repeating.

I don't see the letter as a foreshadow of the events to come. I feel that they are only given that weight in retrospect. Most Germans to some degree or another harboured some cultural anti-jewishness, and many had more extreme views than Hitler. The letter is though, as you state, the first record that we have of those views from Hitler himself. I'm at work now but I have a link to the letter and I will post it later so that you can read it in full for yourself.

I feel, and there is evidence provided by John Toland and others, that Hitler was a dedicated anti-Semite by the time he left Vienna. True we can not know for sure what he was thinking when he wrote the letter, whether the words he used were his or Drexler's, but chances are he believed wholeheartedly in them.

In any event I believe the actual logistical planner of the Holocaust was Himmler, while the idea came in whole or in part from Hitler.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


I have found this thread to be well structured and informative, even to an avid reader of history as I would class myself. However, most of all, I am particularly impressed by the objective approach you have taken, especially in some of the comments you made in the post I reference above.

The subject matter of "controlled" violence is a difficult once, however, it essentially comes down to the "them and us" principle. It is clear, from historical accounts, that the elite members of the SS were capable of extreme violence and yet did suffer for it. There are many accounts of post traumatic stress being recorded. Certainly, the Einsatzgruppe were capable of extreme violence and yet probably attracted a certain "type" of individual rather than the typical Waffen-SS member.

Many males are capable of such behaviour without even realising it, especially when faced with the propaganda of policies that deliberately promote differences between social groups. This is characterised in our societies even now - without the aid of Government backing.

Ultimately, it is an expression of our primeval instincts and the "monsters of the id". Surely, the maternal instincts can be a preventative mechanism when applied to humanity as a whole, however, it can also be perverted to protectionism of our own social group - as witnessed with the female guards at concentration camps.

Males and females can be equally aggressive.

Racism in itself is a symptom of the bigger issue of cultural aversion, simply because it is an easily identifiable physical attribute. Without the cultural aspects that create divisions in society, the impact of skin colour is largely negated. In the instance of the Jewish Holocaust, the caricature of the "hook nose" was used specifically because skin colour was not necessarily an prominent feature.

The destruction of our "own" social group is always taken seriously, at an unconscious level. The leap to violence is never far away and only requires the fanning of the flames by a complicit Government to become a national policy of discrimination. We are already capable of it, it just requires provocation. I think we'd all be surprised at how quickly it could happen.

Let no-one stand in judgement of the peoples of Germany during the 1930's and 1940's. It could happen today in the UK, the US or any other location. It IS happening today all over the world.

reply to post by TheComte


Here is the link as promised

www.hitler.org...

I hope that you will read it through, it is quite a fascinating insight into the man whom history has labelled a monster. The views expressed are those of many at that time. Anti-Jewishness was not isolated to Germany, Hitler says nothing that has not been said by others before and after him.

I personally don't think that anyone at the beginning planned the holocaust, events though did necessitate action and that did lead to a planning event (Wannsee). I think that there was an intention to exploit the Jews financially from a very early date but I do not think that genocide was seriously discussed until 1941. Hitler played his part in necessitating the plans that led to mass murder, Himmler his and undoubtably Heydrich played an essential one. I personally feel though that Goering was highly instrumental too, as was Hjlmar Schacht and through them countless others spanning the globe.

I hope that you read the letter, I think you will find it interesting and I would be interested in your thoughts.

Originally posted by SugarCube
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

Ultimately, it is an expression of our primeval instincts and the "monsters of the id". Surely, the maternal instincts can be a preventative mechanism when applied to humanity as a whole, however, it can also be perverted to protectionism of our own social group - as witnessed with the female guards at concentration camps.

Males and females can be equally aggressive.

Very thought provoking perspective, thank you. I found the above particularly insightful. Nomadic peoples practiced geronticide and infanticide as a requirement of survival, the weak would be left to die or killed so that the strong could prosper and therefore the group as a whole survive. As this 'instinct' exists throughout the animal kingdom I presume that it is part of the reptilian brain along with our xenophobia. Certainly in some peoples there is a demonstrable ability to detached emotionally from death without there necessarily having to be an underlying psychopathic disorder.

This is particularly true in group behaviour, where the actions of one, authorise that of the others, the shared experience normalising the act to some extent. I agree that men and women can both be brutal but typically, I find that the expression of that brutality differs between the sexes and that women have a greater capability to rationalise cruelty.

In some of the penal camps, particularly Ravensbruck, there are examples of incredible extremes of cruelty inflicted by women and often there is a 'gratification' element, as you often find with female serial murderers, a sense of right in killing that often does not exist in their male counterparts. While males may be gratified by the response or result of their action, women appear gratified by the action itself.

I think that the role of women in inciting violence is often overlooked, perhaps a survival tool to get the men off their butts to go hunting, but it seems to have adapted badly to civilisation and can find expression in a malicious form of blood lust.

I also consider age is an important factor in Nazi Germany from a psychological point of view. The dynamism of the fuhrerprinzip allowed for many 'bright young things' to be propelled to positions of power. Heydrich and Eichmann were desperate to reach their full potential and that required that they do their jobs to the absolute best of their ability, no matter the assignment. In a society based entirely on elitism, since long before the rise of Nazism, it was only natural that men should wish to achieve leadership and power. In Germany that was coupled with a 'no questions asked, by any means necessary' qualification of orders and an economy that on every level of society was being consumed by corruption.

Additionally by 1941, when the economic rot began to hit its peak, a whole generation of young men reached maturity who had been exposed since puberity to the propaganda of the Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment. They literally had to be shown a little brutality and told it was their duty to kill, and they were ready for action. Like flicking a switch.

It was all started by the Rothchild faundation and the Rockefeller fondation before the first WW. Supported by thier Banks.
The planning of the Second World War started when Adolf Hitler joined a secret society called the Thule Society in 1919. It was in this group that he found the perverted beliefs that were later to lead him in his control of the German government. But the whole thing was realy pland in the US in 1909.

One of the founders of both groups, the Nazi Party and the Thule Society, was Dietrich Eckart: "a dedicated Satanist, the supreme adept of the arts and rituals of Black Magic and the central figure in a powerful and wide-spread circle of occultists—the Thule Group. (He was] one of the seven founder members of the Nazi Party.

Eckart claimed to be the initiator of Hitler into the secrets of Satan worship. He is quoted as saying on his deathbed: "Follow Hitler. He will dance, but it is I who have called the tune! I have initiated him into the 'Secret Doctrine;' opened his centres in vision and given him the means to communicate with the Powers. Do not mourn for me: I shall have influenced history more than any German."

And this guy Mr. Aleister Crowley had a finger in the game. He formed hitler very early as well. He worked as a agent for England and the US.

Himmler was up to he s neck in this as well. He was a realy strong beliver in the acult. And all the evil things like the Tibetan Lodges that possessed the secret of the "Superman". THE VRIL. Its about a race that is far over us. More like gods.

Dont read history thats a cover up story! But read about whats missing from ouer history.

An other thing! Do you think Hitler was a rothchild!!! i do . Hitler was a Jew. And Hitlers mother (Maria Anna Shicklgruber) was a sevant at the Baron Rohechilds in Vienna for manny years. Until she got pregnent.
It is possible that Hitler discovered his Jewish background and his relation to the Rothschilds, and aware of their enormous power to make or break European governments, re-established contact with the family. This would partially explain the enormous support he received from the international banking fraternity, closely entwined with the Rothschild family, as he rose to power. This might also be the reason why Hitler invaded Austria witch realy lead to the ww2. He whanted to cover his tracks that he was a jew.

Prove me wrong please :9



[edit on 22-6-2008 by spy66]

It was the designs on Danzig and the invasion of Poland that precipitated the declaration of war by Britain. From 1935 Up to that point, a policy of appeasement was undertaken - primarily because contrary to belief, Britain was in no way at the "height of her powers" and was disasterously under prepared for an armed conflict - and Britain would have let the Austrian and Czech "invasions" go.

I think under the circumstances that I can wave my usual reticience for self-aggrandisment and provide myself with a timely bump. And why not.

Another self-bumping, just for the shear hell of it.

reply to post by spy66


I think the onus is actually on you to prove this highly speculative theory.

Maybe, maybe not, but some links/references to reputable sources would be useful.
The theory that Hitler was the son of a Rothschild I believe has been debunked a number of times.