Part five - Shoah
On the 1st of October Himmler received an urgent request from Globocnik requesting a meeting to discuss the proposals that he has received regarding
the Jews in the Lublin district. Hoppner again writes to Eichmann on the 3rd seemingly to request clarity on the orders, “Was the goal to guarantee
them permanently the sure promise of life or was it to exterminate them completely?” (source as with other Hoppner quote). Himmler and Globocnik
meet in Berlin on the 13th and building work at Belzec begins soon after. On the 17th Globocnik meets with Hans Frank to discuss the clearance of the
Jews from the Lublin. After the war, under interrogation, Frank claims that they only discussed moving the Jews further East.
On 23rd October all Jewish emigration from Germany is prohibited. Two days later, Erhard Wetzel, an assistant of Alfred Rosenberg, writes to Hinrich
Lohse (Reichs Commissar for Ostland), to recommend that the personnel of the T4 unit be deployed to assist in the construction of the ‘facilities’
in the East to deal with those Jews unable to work. Vans are used to kill Jews in the East using bottled carbon monoxide, the method while effective
is unable to handle large numbers.
It is worthy of note that there is no record of any instances where a member of these squads were in anyway punished for refusing to participate in
the murder of civilians. Although most would argue that they were under orders, very few accounts confirm the argument that they were forced to
participate. Many though, saw it as their duty to Hitler and to the German people to rid Europe of the ‘bacilli of Jewry’. As one Krakow police
official was to testify, “There was great hatred against the Jews; it was revenge, and they wanted money and gold. Don’t let’s kid ourselves,
there was always something up for grabs during the Jewish actions. Everywhere you went there was always something for the taking.” (p169, Masters
of Death, by Richard Rhodes)
On the 20th November 1941 Himmler telephones through a message to Heydrich from The Wolf’s Lair, Hitler’s war HQ in Eastern Prussia,“Jewish
transports from Berlin. No Liquidation.” By the time Heydrich passes the message to Riga it is too late.
Karl Jager, Commander of Einsatzkommando 3 (sub unit of Group A) reported on 1st December 1941, “I can confirm toady that the objective of solving
the Jewish problem has been achieved.” ((p147 SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp), “The jews were transported to the place of execution in
groups of up to 500 with gaps of at least 2km.” (p28 The Lake, the Villa, the Meeting)
In December 1941 140 Russian prisoners of war are driven to a barn in the village of Papovka and burnt alive. Just outside Leningrad 150 POWs are
first tortured and then shot.
At the end of December 1941 Hitler is rarely seen in public, spending most of his time at the Wolf’s Lair. He hasn’t held a meeting of his
cabinet since 1938 and has delegated the day to day running of Germany to Hans-Heinrich Lammers, Field-Marshall Keitel and Martin Bormann. By all
accounts Bormann dominates all meetings and controls communications to Hitler. As the genocide increases he restricts Himmler’s access to
Hitler.
With the US entrance into the war Hitler and his subordinates found themselves with a prophecy to fulfill. In a speech at the Reichstag on 30 January
1939 Hitler had said “I want today to be a prophet again: if international finance and Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging
the nations once more into a world war, the result will be not the Bolshevization of the earth and ..the victory of the Jewry, but the annihilation of
the Jewish voice in Europe.” (p70, Auschwitz by Laurence Rees). To Hitler and the fanatics of the SS, the Freemason leaders, Churchill and
Roosevelt in alliance against Germany was a confirmation of a Zionist conspiracy against Germany. As Heydrich had put it in a meeting with Dr Carl
Burckhardt of the Swiss Red Cross in late 1939 “The Freemasons are the instrument of Jewish vengeance…should the millennial task of the Fuhrer not
succeed then everything will be revealed, then triumphs will be celebrated with orgies of cruelty, beside which the rigour of Adolf Hitler will appear
very moderate.” (p129-30, SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp). For Heydrich the annihilation of the Jews was a service to mankind, a dirty
job that someone had to do, for Heydrich, the alternative was much worse.
By the end of the year, there have been 41 transports of Jews from the Greater Reich, only 6 of these transports are liquidated on arrival, the rest
are ‘settled’ in the already overcrowded ghettos. Disease and starvation were widespread. In POW camps, two million Red Army soldiers had died
by starvation, disease, execution or by brutality.
In November Himmler had been forced, by growing numbers, to institute facilities to care for those men, like Blobel, who were mentally
disintergrating. Throughout the killing squads mental breakdowns were rife, the result of having to kill men, women and children. According to
August Becker, who helped develop the mobile gassing vans, “Himmler wanted to deploy people who had become available as a result of the suspension
of the euthanasia programme…specialists in extermination by gassing…the Einsatzgruppen in the East were increasingly complaining that the firing
squads could not cope with the psychological and moral stress of the mass shootings indefinitely. I know that a number of members of these squads
were themselves committed to mental asylums and for this reason new and better methods of killing had to be found.” (p167 Masters of Death by
Richard Rhodes)
On 18th December 1941 Himmler meets with Hitler, in his diary, Himmler notes suggest that they had agreed that Jews are to be shot as partisans (see
fpp.co.uk...) . Since at least September the SS had been operating a training course with the motto “Where there is a
Jews there is a Partisan.”
On 20th January 1942 Reinhard Heydrich hosts the Wannsee Conference and announces to the party the Final Solution to the Jewish Question. The meeting
is organized and hosted by Reinhard Heydrich with the assistance of Adolf Eichmann, with some minor Party officials in attendance, their superiors
having sent their apologies and representative of the SS and SD. After initial formalities, the meeting takes a little over an hour and a half, much
of that time is taken with discussing whether half- and quarter-Jews should be included in the deportations.
The Wannsee Protokol, the minutes of the meeting, detail the matters discussed, only 30 copies were ever produced and only one copy, numbered 16
survived the war. Heydrich begins by defining his own responsibilities as presented to him by Hermann Goering “The wish of the Reich Marshall
(Goering) to have a draft sent to him concerning organizational, policy and technical prerequisites for the Final Solution of the European Jewish
question makes it necessary to ensure in advance that the central organisations involved be brought together and their policies properly
co-ordinated.” (From the translation of the Wannsee Protocol, reproduced in The Villa, the Lake, the Meeting: Wannsee and the Final Solution, by
Mark Roseman).
The Protokol makes for chilling reading, especially in retrospect, though extermination is never explicitly mentioned, no plans for the Jews are
discussed beyond their transportation East, no plans were made of how to feed them or care for them. They were simply going East, since the T4
programme, where the mentally ill and disabled were transported over the border to Poland from Germany to be ‘euthanized’, no-one at that meeting
could have been in any doubt as to what going East would mean.
With matters concluded, the meeting closed, the participants retired for brandy and cigars. In March 1942 the killing facilities of Operation
Reinhard, at Sobibor, Treblinka and Belzec, as well as at the Concentration Camps of Auschwitz, Chelmo and Maidenek, commenced the wholesale murder of
the Jews.
Hitler and Himmler: Who Planned the Holocaust?, page 2
reply posted on 24-4-2008 @ 03:35 PM by KilgoreTrout
Thank you for your post, while i do not consider myself an expert, I feel I still have some way to go in that respect, I will try and help you to
resolve your questions.
I too agree with the structuralists in terms of what I call 'white northern european jews'. In terms of the actions of the East I would further sub-divide those victims into slavic peoples and eastern jews or Yiddish speaking jews. I believe that with the latter there was still some element of structuralism, but it is my opinion that the slavic people's were, certainly by the SS leadership, intended to be murdered, even if not by force, certainly by starvation and forced labour from a much earlier stage.
Dachau was opened for the sole purpose of accommodating enemies of the Nazi regime. It had been prepared in advance and began recieving inmates the moment the Nazis took power. Political and ideological opponents, the clergy, intelligensia were systematically rounded up and incarcerated. As the criteria of what constituted an 'enemy' was extended so the demand for more camps increased - homosexuals, prostitutes, syphlitics, the unemployed etc. Each new round of persecution required an expansion of the camp system.
The purpose of these camps was imprisonment, at no time were the camps in Germany meant for extermination, simply for the concentration of enemies. Many were released, in quite an arbitary manner at times. There were no fixed sentences, so the prisoners did not know whether or if they would be released which was difficult for morale. What developed was a system where punishments was meted out for insubordination, attempting to escape, or for any manner of other offences. This system soon developed into one of brutality and as many of the inmates were old and sometimes infirm there were deaths. Additionally, as time went on corruption amongst the SS who staffed the camps, as well as amongst the 'priviledged' prisoners, the Kapos, who assisted the SS. This led to poor conditions and decreases in food rations, so there were deaths by this means too.
First of all came the occupation of Poland which is highly significant in the genesis of the holocaust. Though Hitler only briefed his Generals of the Wehrmacht a few weeks in advance, the SS and in particular Reinhard Heydrich, had been laying plans for some considerable amount of time. The SS (and those agencies that fell under Heinrich Himmler's jurisdiction) were issued with lists of those people that were considered an immediate threat to the Nazis plans. Although the following quote (from an SS officer) refers to the Barbarossa, the same system applied in Poland:
"As a group leader I was sent supplementary documentation. By far the most valuable was a slim little book, part of a limited, numbered edition, which I never let out of my sight. The typeface was tiny...the paper extra thin, in order to pack the most information into the smallest possible space...It consisted of lists, including the names of every active member of the Communist party...all the non-party intelligensia, and listings of scholars, teachers, writers and journalists, prests, public officials, upwardly mobile peasants, and the most prominent industrialists and bankers...addresses and telephone numbers...There were additional listings of relatives and friends, in case any subversive scum tried to hide, plus physical descriptions, and in some cases photographs." (p5, Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes)
I similar list was compiled for England, and many of those who were recruited for the Einsatzgruppen thought that they were reporting for training in preparation for the invasion of Britain.
Some of these people were rounded up and sent back to Germany to work as forced labour, others were executed on the spot. Additionally, ethnic poles or those of slavic descent were moved further East to the Lublin district and the Polish Jews were herded into ghettos, such as those at Lodz and Warsaw.
This is where Generalplan Ost becomes significant. The purpose was to re-Germanise those lands that were lost at Versailles and comprised under the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. It is also worth studying the various partitions of Poland under Otto von Bismarck to fully comprehend the thinking behind the concept of 'Germanisation'. The initial purpose, or the strategic purpose was to provide a 'buffer' against Communist Russia, however, as is clearly stated in Mein Kampf the long term plans of Hitler did involve the invasion of Russia, up to at least the Urals with 5 to 10 years. In the meantime, those slavic/ethnic Poles who were deposited in the Lublin district were there, ostensibly to dig anti-tank ditches to prevent possible incursion by the Soviets.
Himmler's SS therefore spent considerable time herding various ethnic groups around Poland between the invasion and occupation of Poland in September 1939 and the invasion of Russia in May 1941. Jews to the ghettos, ethnic poles and slavs to Lublin and those considered Germanic enough, to work in civil projects in the Reich. At the same time from outside of Germany, those of direct German descent were encouraged to return to the Reich where they would be given homes, land and employment. Many of these Germans had left Germany at the time of the depression or had been resident in former German colonies which were taken from Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Those who were less affluent were placed in holding camps under land and homes could be 'freed' to accommodate them. Many of those who ran the Auslander Org were themselves overseas Germans, Rudolf Hess (born Egypt), Alfred Rosenberg (Tallin) and Ernst Bohle (Bradford in England).
to be cont'd in next post.
Originally posted by hinky
I'm a structuralist in thinking of the Holocaust. I do believe the Nazi had every intention of ridding Germany of Jews along with other sub-human categories. In this line of though, it would be intentionalism, but only within the confines of Germany proper.
I too agree with the structuralists in terms of what I call 'white northern european jews'. In terms of the actions of the East I would further sub-divide those victims into slavic peoples and eastern jews or Yiddish speaking jews. I believe that with the latter there was still some element of structuralism, but it is my opinion that the slavic people's were, certainly by the SS leadership, intended to be murdered, even if not by force, certainly by starvation and forced labour from a much earlier stage.
Originally posted by hinky
The Germans set up a series of camps in the mid to late 30's which were concentration camps. This is different than the death camps. Dachau would be an example of this type of camp.
Political prisoners, communists, union leaders, and people of different religious beliefs were held in these camps for any number of crimes. Some were allowed to finish their sentence and leave and there were some deaths for various reasons. But no deaths on the massive scale.
Dachau was opened for the sole purpose of accommodating enemies of the Nazi regime. It had been prepared in advance and began recieving inmates the moment the Nazis took power. Political and ideological opponents, the clergy, intelligensia were systematically rounded up and incarcerated. As the criteria of what constituted an 'enemy' was extended so the demand for more camps increased - homosexuals, prostitutes, syphlitics, the unemployed etc. Each new round of persecution required an expansion of the camp system.
The purpose of these camps was imprisonment, at no time were the camps in Germany meant for extermination, simply for the concentration of enemies. Many were released, in quite an arbitary manner at times. There were no fixed sentences, so the prisoners did not know whether or if they would be released which was difficult for morale. What developed was a system where punishments was meted out for insubordination, attempting to escape, or for any manner of other offences. This system soon developed into one of brutality and as many of the inmates were old and sometimes infirm there were deaths. Additionally, as time went on corruption amongst the SS who staffed the camps, as well as amongst the 'priviledged' prisoners, the Kapos, who assisted the SS. This led to poor conditions and decreases in food rations, so there were deaths by this means too.
Originally posted by hinky
Once Germany started the war, objectives and goals got sidetracked due to unexpected ease of victory. The Russian champaign started out well and then reality set in when a small nation attacks a much greater nation. The numbers of prisoners and the total area conquered was overwhelming for any strategic planning, even planning by Germans..
First of all came the occupation of Poland which is highly significant in the genesis of the holocaust. Though Hitler only briefed his Generals of the Wehrmacht a few weeks in advance, the SS and in particular Reinhard Heydrich, had been laying plans for some considerable amount of time. The SS (and those agencies that fell under Heinrich Himmler's jurisdiction) were issued with lists of those people that were considered an immediate threat to the Nazis plans. Although the following quote (from an SS officer) refers to the Barbarossa, the same system applied in Poland:
"As a group leader I was sent supplementary documentation. By far the most valuable was a slim little book, part of a limited, numbered edition, which I never let out of my sight. The typeface was tiny...the paper extra thin, in order to pack the most information into the smallest possible space...It consisted of lists, including the names of every active member of the Communist party...all the non-party intelligensia, and listings of scholars, teachers, writers and journalists, prests, public officials, upwardly mobile peasants, and the most prominent industrialists and bankers...addresses and telephone numbers...There were additional listings of relatives and friends, in case any subversive scum tried to hide, plus physical descriptions, and in some cases photographs." (p5, Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes)
I similar list was compiled for England, and many of those who were recruited for the Einsatzgruppen thought that they were reporting for training in preparation for the invasion of Britain.
Some of these people were rounded up and sent back to Germany to work as forced labour, others were executed on the spot. Additionally, ethnic poles or those of slavic descent were moved further East to the Lublin district and the Polish Jews were herded into ghettos, such as those at Lodz and Warsaw.
Originally posted by hinky
The time lines up to the Russian invasion you laid out seem good. The exception being that the Einsatzgruppen were tasked with killing Communist Commissars on the spot and also killing basically all inhabitants, including Jews, in smaller towns and rural areas, which proved later a large loss of potential anti-Russian allies. This would indicate that a decision was made by someone to start the "final solution" before the actual "final solution" conference was held. Or would this be considered part of Hitler's Lebensraum program.
This is where Generalplan Ost becomes significant. The purpose was to re-Germanise those lands that were lost at Versailles and comprised under the Brest-Litovsk Treaty. It is also worth studying the various partitions of Poland under Otto von Bismarck to fully comprehend the thinking behind the concept of 'Germanisation'. The initial purpose, or the strategic purpose was to provide a 'buffer' against Communist Russia, however, as is clearly stated in Mein Kampf the long term plans of Hitler did involve the invasion of Russia, up to at least the Urals with 5 to 10 years. In the meantime, those slavic/ethnic Poles who were deposited in the Lublin district were there, ostensibly to dig anti-tank ditches to prevent possible incursion by the Soviets.
Himmler's SS therefore spent considerable time herding various ethnic groups around Poland between the invasion and occupation of Poland in September 1939 and the invasion of Russia in May 1941. Jews to the ghettos, ethnic poles and slavs to Lublin and those considered Germanic enough, to work in civil projects in the Reich. At the same time from outside of Germany, those of direct German descent were encouraged to return to the Reich where they would be given homes, land and employment. Many of these Germans had left Germany at the time of the depression or had been resident in former German colonies which were taken from Germany under the Versailles Treaty. Those who were less affluent were placed in holding camps under land and homes could be 'freed' to accommodate them. Many of those who ran the Auslander Org were themselves overseas Germans, Rudolf Hess (born Egypt), Alfred Rosenberg (Tallin) and Ernst Bohle (Bradford in England).
to be cont'd in next post.
reply posted on 20-6-2008 @ 10:52 PM by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by TheComte
The letter was written by Hitler at the request of General Luddendorf, who was at that time taking a mentors interest in Hitler and in charge of the Reichswehr. But there is a little discrepency in the reports of why and to who it was written. I think it may have been part of his cover, but that does not mean that he didn't believe in the words he wrote, just that the background story isn't that cut and dried.
Hitler had been instructed to infiltrate groups that were believed to be involved in covert bolshevik activities (whatever that may mean). By the time he wrote that letter he had already 'infiltrated' the DAP and made the acquaintance of Anton Drexler. The views expressed are very much akin to Drexler's own publication on anti-semitism, which spoke of an 'unemotional anti-semitism'. Hitler is merely repeating.
I don't see the letter as a foreshadow of the events to come. I feel that they are only given that weight in retrospect. Most Germans to some degree or another harboured some cultural anti-jewishness, and many had more extreme views than Hitler. The letter is though, as you state, the first record that we have of those views from Hitler himself. I'm at work now but I have a link to the letter and I will post it later so that you can read it in full for yourself.
The letter was written by Hitler at the request of General Luddendorf, who was at that time taking a mentors interest in Hitler and in charge of the Reichswehr. But there is a little discrepency in the reports of why and to who it was written. I think it may have been part of his cover, but that does not mean that he didn't believe in the words he wrote, just that the background story isn't that cut and dried.
Hitler had been instructed to infiltrate groups that were believed to be involved in covert bolshevik activities (whatever that may mean). By the time he wrote that letter he had already 'infiltrated' the DAP and made the acquaintance of Anton Drexler. The views expressed are very much akin to Drexler's own publication on anti-semitism, which spoke of an 'unemotional anti-semitism'. Hitler is merely repeating.
I don't see the letter as a foreshadow of the events to come. I feel that they are only given that weight in retrospect. Most Germans to some degree or another harboured some cultural anti-jewishness, and many had more extreme views than Hitler. The letter is though, as you state, the first record that we have of those views from Hitler himself. I'm at work now but I have a link to the letter and I will post it later so that you can read it in full for yourself.
reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 06:43 AM by SugarCube
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
I have found this thread to be well structured and informative, even to an avid reader of history as I would class myself. However, most of all, I am particularly impressed by the objective approach you have taken, especially in some of the comments you made in the post I reference above.
The subject matter of "controlled" violence is a difficult once, however, it essentially comes down to the "them and us" principle. It is clear, from historical accounts, that the elite members of the SS were capable of extreme violence and yet did suffer for it. There are many accounts of post traumatic stress being recorded. Certainly, the Einsatzgruppe were capable of extreme violence and yet probably attracted a certain "type" of individual rather than the typical Waffen-SS member.
Many males are capable of such behaviour without even realising it, especially when faced with the propaganda of policies that deliberately promote differences between social groups. This is characterised in our societies even now - without the aid of Government backing.
Ultimately, it is an expression of our primeval instincts and the "monsters of the id". Surely, the maternal instincts can be a preventative mechanism when applied to humanity as a whole, however, it can also be perverted to protectionism of our own social group - as witnessed with the female guards at concentration camps.
Males and females can be equally aggressive.
Racism in itself is a symptom of the bigger issue of cultural aversion, simply because it is an easily identifiable physical attribute. Without the cultural aspects that create divisions in society, the impact of skin colour is largely negated. In the instance of the Jewish Holocaust, the caricature of the "hook nose" was used specifically because skin colour was not necessarily an prominent feature.
The destruction of our "own" social group is always taken seriously, at an unconscious level. The leap to violence is never far away and only requires the fanning of the flames by a complicit Government to become a national policy of discrimination. We are already capable of it, it just requires provocation. I think we'd all be surprised at how quickly it could happen.
Let no-one stand in judgement of the peoples of Germany during the 1930's and 1940's. It could happen today in the UK, the US or any other location. It IS happening today all over the world.
I have found this thread to be well structured and informative, even to an avid reader of history as I would class myself. However, most of all, I am particularly impressed by the objective approach you have taken, especially in some of the comments you made in the post I reference above.
The subject matter of "controlled" violence is a difficult once, however, it essentially comes down to the "them and us" principle. It is clear, from historical accounts, that the elite members of the SS were capable of extreme violence and yet did suffer for it. There are many accounts of post traumatic stress being recorded. Certainly, the Einsatzgruppe were capable of extreme violence and yet probably attracted a certain "type" of individual rather than the typical Waffen-SS member.
Many males are capable of such behaviour without even realising it, especially when faced with the propaganda of policies that deliberately promote differences between social groups. This is characterised in our societies even now - without the aid of Government backing.
Ultimately, it is an expression of our primeval instincts and the "monsters of the id". Surely, the maternal instincts can be a preventative mechanism when applied to humanity as a whole, however, it can also be perverted to protectionism of our own social group - as witnessed with the female guards at concentration camps.
Males and females can be equally aggressive.
Racism in itself is a symptom of the bigger issue of cultural aversion, simply because it is an easily identifiable physical attribute. Without the cultural aspects that create divisions in society, the impact of skin colour is largely negated. In the instance of the Jewish Holocaust, the caricature of the "hook nose" was used specifically because skin colour was not necessarily an prominent feature.
The destruction of our "own" social group is always taken seriously, at an unconscious level. The leap to violence is never far away and only requires the fanning of the flames by a complicit Government to become a national policy of discrimination. We are already capable of it, it just requires provocation. I think we'd all be surprised at how quickly it could happen.
Let no-one stand in judgement of the peoples of Germany during the 1930's and 1940's. It could happen today in the UK, the US or any other location. It IS happening today all over the world.
reply posted on 21-6-2008 @ 02:51 PM by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by TheComte
Here is the link as promised
www.hitler.org...
I hope that you will read it through, it is quite a fascinating insight into the man whom history has labelled a monster. The views expressed are those of many at that time. Anti-Jewishness was not isolated to Germany, Hitler says nothing that has not been said by others before and after him.
I personally don't think that anyone at the beginning planned the holocaust, events though did necessitate action and that did lead to a planning event (Wannsee). I think that there was an intention to exploit the Jews financially from a very early date but I do not think that genocide was seriously discussed until 1941. Hitler played his part in necessitating the plans that led to mass murder, Himmler his and undoubtably Heydrich played an essential one. I personally feel though that Goering was highly instrumental too, as was Hjlmar Schacht and through them countless others spanning the globe.
I hope that you read the letter, I think you will find it interesting and I would be interested in your thoughts.
Here is the link as promised
www.hitler.org...
I hope that you will read it through, it is quite a fascinating insight into the man whom history has labelled a monster. The views expressed are those of many at that time. Anti-Jewishness was not isolated to Germany, Hitler says nothing that has not been said by others before and after him.
I personally don't think that anyone at the beginning planned the holocaust, events though did necessitate action and that did lead to a planning event (Wannsee). I think that there was an intention to exploit the Jews financially from a very early date but I do not think that genocide was seriously discussed until 1941. Hitler played his part in necessitating the plans that led to mass murder, Himmler his and undoubtably Heydrich played an essential one. I personally feel though that Goering was highly instrumental too, as was Hjlmar Schacht and through them countless others spanning the globe.
I hope that you read the letter, I think you will find it interesting and I would be interested in your thoughts.
reply posted on 22-6-2008 @ 12:50 PM by KilgoreTrout
Originally posted by SugarCube
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
Ultimately, it is an expression of our primeval instincts and the "monsters of the id". Surely, the maternal instincts can be a preventative mechanism when applied to humanity as a whole, however, it can also be perverted to protectionism of our own social group - as witnessed with the female guards at concentration camps.
Males and females can be equally aggressive.
Very thought provoking perspective, thank you. I found the above particularly insightful. Nomadic peoples practiced geronticide and infanticide as a requirement of survival, the weak would be left to die or killed so that the strong could prosper and therefore the group as a whole survive. As this 'instinct' exists throughout the animal kingdom I presume that it is part of the reptilian brain along with our xenophobia. Certainly in some peoples there is a demonstrable ability to detached emotionally from death without there necessarily having to be an underlying psychopathic disorder.
This is particularly true in group behaviour, where the actions of one, authorise that of the others, the shared experience normalising the act to some extent. I agree that men and women can both be brutal but typically, I find that the expression of that brutality differs between the sexes and that women have a greater capability to rationalise cruelty.
In some of the penal camps, particularly Ravensbruck, there are examples of incredible extremes of cruelty inflicted by women and often there is a 'gratification' element, as you often find with female serial murderers, a sense of right in killing that often does not exist in their male counterparts. While males may be gratified by the response or result of their action, women appear gratified by the action itself.
I think that the role of women in inciting violence is often overlooked, perhaps a survival tool to get the men off their butts to go hunting, but it seems to have adapted badly to civilisation and can find expression in a malicious form of blood lust.
I also consider age is an important factor in Nazi Germany from a psychological point of view. The dynamism of the fuhrerprinzip allowed for many 'bright young things' to be propelled to positions of power. Heydrich and Eichmann were desperate to reach their full potential and that required that they do their jobs to the absolute best of their ability, no matter the assignment. In a society based entirely on elitism, since long before the rise of Nazism, it was only natural that men should wish to achieve leadership and power. In Germany that was coupled with a 'no questions asked, by any means necessary' qualification of orders and an economy that on every level of society was being consumed by corruption.
Additionally by 1941, when the economic rot began to hit its peak, a whole generation of young men reached maturity who had been exposed since puberity to the propaganda of the Ministry of Propaganda and Enlightenment. They literally had to be shown a little brutality and told it was their duty to kill, and they were ready for action. Like flicking a switch.
reply posted on 6-4-2013 @ 09:27 AM by cuckooold
reply to post by spy66
I think the onus is actually on you to prove this highly speculative theory.
Maybe, maybe not, but some links/references to reputable sources would be useful.
The theory that Hitler was the son of a Rothschild I believe has been debunked a number of times.
I think the onus is actually on you to prove this highly speculative theory.
Maybe, maybe not, but some links/references to reputable sources would be useful.
The theory that Hitler was the son of a Rothschild I believe has been debunked a number of times.
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Breaking Political News: 14 hours ago, 29 replies
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wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www2.theabovenetwork.com
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