It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Hitler and Himmler: Who Planned the Holocaust?

page: 1
<<   2 >>

log in


posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 03:05 PM
The following post was buried in a recent holocaust revisionist thread. I felt that it was a point that warranted it’s own discussion.

Hitler didn't intend to commit genocide against the Jews. Adolf Eichmann and Heinrich Himmler were the ones behind the final solution. Himmler lined out in a speech about how to get rid of the Jews in Europe, which lead Historians (mainstream) to question whether or not Hitler was behind or knew about the final solution Eichmann and Himmler had planned.

I believe that this is the speech that the poster was referring to;

Delivered on 4th October 1943 in Poznan to SS Group leaders by Reichsfuhrer-SS Heinrich Himmler;

It is absolutely wrong to project our own harmless soul with its deep feelings, our kindheartedness, our idealism, upon alien peoples. This is true, beginning with Herder, who must have been drunk when he wrote the Voices Of The Peoples, thereby bringing such immeasurable suffering and misery upon us who came after him. This is true, beginning with the Czechs and Slovenes, to whom we brought their sense of nationhood. They themselves were incapable of it, but we invented it for them.

One principle must be absolute for the SS man: we must be honest, decent, loyal and friendly to members of our blood and to no one else. What happens to the Russians, what happens to the Czechs, is a matter of utter indifference to me. Such good blood of our own kind as there may be among the nations we shall acquire for ourselves, if necessary by taking away the children and bringing them up among us.

Whether the other races live in comfort or perish of hunger interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture; apart from that it does not interest me. Whether or not 10,000 Russian women collapse from exhaustion while digging a tank ditch interests me only in so far as the tank ditch is completed for Germany.

This speech is considered a vital piece of evidence in the historical indictment of Himmler and his role in the murder of civilians, without it we would have very little documentary evidence of Himmler’s direct involvement in the holocaust.

The evidence against Hitler is even thinner. Is this lack of evidence of Hitler’s involvement indicative of his lack of knowledge of the genocides, as historians like Daid Irving have theorized, or did he just cover his tracks a little better than Himmler?

In my opinion, though there is little or no documentary evidence to support it, Hitler must have been party to the decision to murder the Jews and Slavs. However, I feel that that Himmler and others close to Hitler, had to convince him of the necessity of murder – I do not feel the decision was taken by Hitler, but that his authority to carry out the genocides was sought. That is, while I can accept that he may not have planned the murder, I struggle to believe that it could have occurred without his knowledge.

I would be interested in the opinions of others here with regard to the relationship of Hitler and Himmler in the formation and planning of the genocides committed under the Third Reich.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by Jbird]

posted on Jan, 13 2008 @ 08:18 PM
Was the Holocaust Planned?

In the 1970s through to the early 80s two theoretical approaches emerged into the study of the holocaust. The Intentionalists, who believed that the Holocaust was a planned event and that as Dictator Hitler had total control over the ideological framework that culminated in the extermination of millions of Jews. This group use Hitler's speeches and writings, particularly Mein Kampf to support this hypothesis. It is the presumption that only Hitler had sufficient authority to have issued the 'orders'.

The second group, the Structuralists, contend though that it was Hitler's indecisiveness and lack of clear direction to his subordinates that led to the Holocaust, combined with the power structure and the power struggles between his subordinates that led to the Holocaust.

Through my own research I have concluded that it is most likely a combination of the two, in that while the holocaust was not specifically planned the climate was created through for example, propaganda and the Nuremberg Laws to the extent that in the end the mass exterminations became an inevitability.

In Mein Kampf, Hitler uses the word 'vernichtung' when talking of how the Jews should be dealt with and claimed that the outcome of WW1 would have been different had 10-15000 'leading hebrews' been exposed to poison gas instead of men like him (Hitler was hospitalised towards the end of the war due blindnes to exposure to gas, although evidence suggests that his blindness may have been hysterical).

'Vernichtung' can mean extermination, destruction or eradication and it is unclear which meaning he intended. However it is known that he was heavily influenced by the writings of Wilhelm Marr and Eugen Doehring, who wrote of the Jews as a 'bacilli' on the German people. In a letter to his friend Adolf Gemlich in 1919 he wrote that ' the final aim must be the uncompromising removal of the Jews altogether'.

Hitler's early writings demonstrate a growing interest in a racially pure German, he called for the enforced sterilisation of alcoholics, criminals, mentally infirm and the syphilitic amongst others, however consistently his speeches speak of the 'Juda as the Plague of the world.'

Therefore while we cannot confirm that Hitler intended to murder the jews we can ascertain that he intended to rid Germany of them. As we are unable to ascertain from Hitler speeches and writings a clear intention it is perhaps fair to assume that there were those in the internal power structure of the Party that may have been similarly confused.

The Leadership Principle

In my opinion o other single factor explains more clearly how it is possible for the holocaust and other genocides and atrocities to have occured without there being any clear direction from Hitler than the 'Leadership Principle' or Fuhrerprinzip.

A leadership principle would be the way leadership is performed within an organisation. Or as itself the principle that people themselves should take the lead.

Do not manage the case, lead the people.

Do not solve the problems of the staff, but train them to solve the problems themselves.

Permit staff space for decision making

Give staff the opportunity to take pride in their work. Let them present the results themselves.

In case of failures, do not search for the guilty party, but investigate together with the staff causes of failures

Be an example by living the principles of the enterprise, become a Master of the Leadership principles.

Or as Hermann Goering described it during his examination by Justice Jackson at Nuremberg;

' In the Leadership Principle we sought to reverse the direction, that is,.the authority existed at the top and passed downwards, while the responsibility began at the bottom and passed upwards.'

He further explains the reasoning behind the introduction of this system

I consider the Leadership Principle necessary because the system which previously existed, and which we called parliamentary or democratic, had brought Germany to the verge of ruin. I might perhaps in this connection remind you that your own President Roosevelt, as far as I can recall-I do not want to quote it word for word-declared, "Certain peoples in Europe have forsaken democracy, not because they did not wish for democracy as such, but because democracy had brought forth men who were too weak to give their people work and bread, and to satisfy them. For this reason the peoples have abandoned this system and the men belonging to it." There is much truth in that statement. This system had brought ruin by mismanagement and according to my own opinion, only an organization made up of a strong, clearly defined leadership hierarchy could restore order again. But, let it be understood, not against the will of the people, but only when the people, having in the course of time, and by means of a series of elections, grown stronger and stronger, had expressed their wish to entrust their destiny to the


We find when examining the evidence that there is very little record from Hitler of orders being issued, certainly not in writing. However, according to the Leadership Principle it can be argued that Hitler's speeches which spoke of the Vernichtung of the Jews could have been interpreted as intent by his subordinates and acted upon. That is, the Jews must go is the order from Hitler, the means by which this is acheived is the subordinates responsibility to fulfill. At later date I hope to recount instances where this principle can be clearly seen in the actions of both Party members and the SS.

posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 06:44 PM
Very important thread here and I appreciate the fact that it was started. I believe that Hitler knew that his constant speeches would be taken as proof positive by the Nazi Party, Gestapo, SS and other sections and organizations within German society that the Jews were to be brutalized and exterminated. This makes him at least spiritually respnsible for the Holocaust starting. While it is true that there has been little evidence that Hitler officially signed documents authorizing the Holocaust, just the fact that he whipped up his followers into a frenzy regarding the Jews certainly makes him morally guilty of being the Holocausts author. And while it is also true that Hitler may not have known much in the way of intimate details of what was being done to the Jews, he was aware of and b;essed what was being done in his name against the Jews.

posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 06:48 PM
From what I've read, Himmler WAS the mastermind behind it; although Hitler DID go along with it, fuel it, and allow it to happen. If it weren't for Hitler, it wouldn't have happened. Himmler was a dark and evil man.

It was Himmler who decided to start gassing the Jews to save money on bullets.

This is according to my readings.

Good thread.

[edit on 2/14/2008 by bigbert81]

posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 06:56 PM
I think that much is attributed to Hitler than there really should have been. In his quest for power and to keep that power he eventually succumbed to the dark ideals of the Nazi Party. The Nazi party was a platform for him to get power, but eventually Hitler was corrupted by the main dogmas of the party.

I think the German people really have a mean streak in them, throughout history they have shown this again and again. They were angry about paying reparations from WW1 and the economic depression that seized their nation. And in hard times people tend to look for hope and change, thus the rise of the Nazi Party and Hitler. The whole situation snowballed from that point on as Germany became power hungry, looking to be an elite country again.

I have no problem with Germany, since I have been there myself and stayed with common people that live ordinary lives like you and me. It was a great experience traveling there and meeting the people, many are very nice. Although you can tell their view on the past, they will never mention Hitler other than saying "him," or "those who will not be named." I found that interesting. I have also seen concentration camps and still to this day you can still feel the sadness and depravity in the air, the desperation and total domination of people.

posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 07:47 PM

In 1922 Joseph Hell asked Hitler, "What do you want to do to the Jews once you have full descretionary powers?" (1) Hitler, who until then had spoken calmy and with measured words, underwent a total transformation:

"His eyes no longer saw me but instead bore past me and off into empty space; his explanation grew increasingly voluble until he fell into a kind of paroxysm that ended with his shouting, as if to a whole public gathering:

'Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.' "

(1) Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institut für Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly newspaper Der Gerade Weg.

Looks like his intentions were pretty clear. And he made that promise, almost...

[edit on 14-2-2008 by deltaboy]

posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 04:35 PM
Thanks guys - I am quite shocked it is about a month since I started the thread and had not expected anyone to reply after all this time....patience has it's rewards after all. I am at present working on another 'segment' and hopefully will get that up in the next couple of days or so. Now I know that there are a few interested readers out there I am all the more enthused.

posted on Feb, 19 2008 @ 05:05 PM
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

And even if there are not many writers, there certainly are a lot of readers. I for one read it without responding. Looking forward to your next post.

posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 02:28 AM
What "Holocaust" ???

Never happen... Part of the brainwash and zionist agenda. I am not a nazi, and has never been, but thats my opinion after more than 10 yrs close study from issue... And by the way, my great grandfather was a jew too.

If you think that 911 wad the first great Hoax in time of media... No, this is the one.

posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 02:48 AM
Whilst the finer details of the Final Solution were penned by Himmler and Heidrich, especially the exact means of extermination and transportation, Hitler shared their anti-semitism and was complicit in the undertaking of anti-semitic activity. What is notable about Hitler is the extraordinary loyalty he inspired in his subordinates, who would follow even the most foolhardy Fuhrerbefehl right up until the last days of the Reich. Had Hitler disagreed with the Final Solution, it would not have happened.

Anyone who denies the holocaust has never visited a concentration camp (I have visited Bergen-Belsen and Auschwitz-Berkenau) and has never met any of the servicemen who liberated the camps in 1945.

posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 03:04 AM
I dont denied the holocaust, I just say that it happen like they has said it happen...

I have been in in Treblinka, Bergen-Belsen, and Aushwitz too.

My both grandfathers fight with Germans, even when other was 50% jew, and he was a captain in motorized army, and he get medal from the Germans from his cooperation, when he organized movements of german soldiers.

Many doesnt even know, that there was jews in Nazi army too... And they get medals like others. Jewish bankers, and Warburgs was many ways the guys who financed whole German war industry.

posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 05:02 AM
I would say both are guilty!

Himmle produced a way to get rid of the Jews and Hitler approved of it!

Both are burning in Hell...

posted on Mar, 4 2008 @ 05:30 AM
I must apologise for not delivering as promised - I have been somewhat otherwise distracted but I am getting on with it now. Hopefully no one has been holding their breath...

For the sake of argument I would like to outline that the holocaust is not what interests me about the second world war, any student of history knows that genocide is all too common place and part of the attrition process of any war, the deaths of six million in terms of the overall civilian casualties of the second world war is sadly, a drop in the ocean. Apart from an interest in the myriad of conspiracies that surround the period, for the sake of this thread what interests me is the desire of others to deny it and the over-riding wish of the media to promote the denial and the mainstream view.

The genuine revisionists who seek to 'clarify' the historical record by removing it from the emotional references are however increasingly marginalised. World war two is only a stones throw away and we are still living with the repercussions and policies that were at that time set in motion.

All too often here on ATS you find that those who put forward the arguments that diminish the holocaust are unable to refute simple contradictions. For example, how could the jews have died due to starvation by the supply lines being cut, when a) there is no record of supply lines being cut and b) the camps were not recieving supplies at that point in the war. If you have studied the period of the 2nd world war this is obvious, if all you have done is read one web site that has presented only the information that supports the hypothese then not so obvious.

At the more extreme end of the revisionist scale is David Irving, in my opinion the foremost authority on Adolf Hitler, he has been systematically marginalised, professionally and financially ruined in part for his arrogance and ill-advised comments but in the main because he dared to question the established view of Nazi Germany and Hitler in particular well before the world was ready. Much of what Irving was pillored for in the late seventies and early eighties has since been acknowledged by 'respected' modern historians. By promoting the view of Irving as a anti-semitic, far-right holocaust denier he has been systematically silenced. Some of his views may be questionable but his body of published work is not reflective of his personality any more or less than any other historian's.

An alarming amount of people want to believe that the holocaust did not happen and from my point of view I can understand is hard to consider how fragile the line between victim and murderer can be given the right set of circumstances. On the internet there is ample fodder for those that wish to bury their heads and choose to believe that the conspiracy lies with the Jews themselves, more so than those wishing to promote 'Real History'. There may appear to be an emphasis on the Jewish experience, but to anyone who has sought books on the wider period of the war, will find that this is not honestly the case. If all you look for is books on the Jewish holocaust that is all you will find.

What are hard to find are books that deal with other aspects of the Nazi regime, Himmler and Heydrich have suffered little close examination. Same with Geobbels, Bormann, Raeder, Canaris etc etc etc. Conspiracies surround all these people but very little is known about them. All anyone ever questions about Bormann is whether he survived the war or one is interested in his lifetime just the possibility of his 'after-life'.

There is method in all this madness I believe. A wilfull desire on the part of the media and judicary to detract attention from the events that are still impacting today and a willingness to promote anti-semitism to muddy the water. It becomes obvious, from only a cursory observation, that there is financial backing for the denailist movement - where that money comes from is anyones guess - but it does seem to denote that those with money would rather the debate stayed on an emotional footing. One may even be inclined to believe that the denial movement could be a tool to conceal greater crimes or at least to conceal them until the statutes run out on them.

I digress though. Back on thread, I am intending to write a short 'essay' that covers in basic detail the two year period leading up to the Wannsee Conference in January 1942. The purpose of this is to 'introduce' some of the 'characters' and events that were integral to the execution of the holocaust. This serves to broaden the scope of what the holocaust represented and to support the existence of decision making in this process - and to demonstrate how/why those decisions may have been reached. I would also like to back up certain points up by demonstrating 'patterns of behaviour' - both past and present, to do this I felt it would be helpful to show how certain people were known to interact with each other and how commands were carried.

This for me is a learning curve and an opportunity to present my own theories, nothing is not set in stone and I very much welcome questions, corrections and critique. That said I'll get on with it....

posted on Mar, 13 2008 @ 01:47 PM
Part One - From little acorns...

In the winter of 1940/1 across a series of 1,500 transit camps, in excess of 100,000 men, women and children, were awaiting settlement. They had come from the now Soviet occupied territories as agreed in the secret Molotov Pact. Others had come from further a field, drawn by the propaganda distributed by the Ausland Organisation, ethnic Germans responding to the call to return to the fatherland.

The problem facing Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler was that the farms and houses these people were to live in were still occupied by their Polish owners or in the case of the cities of the Greater Reich, by a concentration of Jews. In addition to his other titles and responsibilities, as Reichs Commissar for the Strengthening of Germandom, Hitler had charged Himmler with the task of Germanising the East. SS Obergruppenfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich had developed a plan but it would not until the forced removal of 110,000 Polish peasant farmers from the Zamosc Lands on 28 November 1942 that Generalplan Ost would be officially launched.

In the Greater Reich, the continued presence of the Jews and the failure of the forced emigration programme failing to meet expected targets, was creating dissension and acrimony between the Party and Himmler’s domains.

By the 15th November 1940, only 5,000 Jews had been deported to the Eastern ghettos from Prague, Vienna and Mahrisch-Ostrau combined, a further 1,000 from Stettin and a total of 2,800 gypsies. Those able to work were sent to the camps. In Germany itself the majority of the Jews remained in their own homes, some had been moved into apartment buildings to make way for the more affluent Auslanders, but otherwise the German Jews in particular still had good reason to believe ' that it would pass', things would eventually go back to normal. In Poland and elsewhere though there was no such hope.

Throughout the occupied and annexed territories all Jews were subject to the same restrictions as those imposed in Germany by the 1935 Nuremberg Laws. They were not permitted to work, they were not allowed to frequent 'German' businesses, 'Germans' were not permitted to interact with them, their accounts and assets were frozen, and they were forced to sell their homes and businesses at ‘knock-down’ prices. The flourishing black market exchange in valuables for basic provisions amongst Jews and those willing to exploit the situation, quickly became a bone of contention in Nazis Party upper circles. It was threatening to the fragile economy of the Reich and it was encouraging a criminal element.

While the erosion of the rights and freedoms of the German Jews had been incremental, spanning several years, in the annexed, occupied and puppet states of the German ‘Empire’, the persecution was swift. In Germany Goebbels had to wait until 1941 before Hitler would agree to the Jews of Germany wearing the yellow star, elsewhere the registrations, and the wearing of the star had been in some cases, immediate. These Jews had no time to prepare, without means to support themselves they rapidly became reliant on the black market to obtain medicines and basic food supplies.

In Poland, the Nazis had set out to Germanize the entire country. The Jews here had the misfortune to be not only Jewish but Slavic. In the minds of the Nazi elite these people were not even human and they had no right to exist. The Jews had been forced into ghettos, often with no sanitation facilities and no means of obtaining food. Death by disease, starvation and brutality were soon commonplace.

Generalplan Ost was the most ambitious social engineering project ever undertaken and would formulate the first stage of the Drang nach Ost (The drive further East) proposed by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf for the Jews and slavs of Poland and the former Hanseatic lands of the Baltic states. Hitler’s vision of his thousand year Reich saw the German people accommodating the continent as far as the Urals. The Poles and Slavic Jews were to be removed East, initially to the Lublin district, between the Bug and the Vistula Rivers. There homes and lands would then be given, complete with fixtures and furnishings to the returning Germans. Himmler had hand selected SS-Gruppenfuhrer Odilo Globocnik to oversee the operation in Lublin, he would be assisted by a representative of the RuSHA and VoMi organisations, SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Reinhold von Mohrenschildt. Both received their orders directly, and usually in person, from Himmler himself.

After the war, during his interrogation, and before his ‘suicide’ which co-incided with a visit to his home by British SIS officers, Professor Karl Haushofer stated that Rudolf Hess had been entriely responsible for the chapters in Mein Kampf that dealt with geo-politics and, therefore the push East. Haushofer, though played down his own role in these ideas, he was after all Hess’s Professor of Geo-politics at Munich University and had himself, visited Hitler almost daily during his imprisonment as Landsberg.

At the beginning of 1941 Rudolf Hoess was promoted to SS-Sturmbannfuhrer and placed in charge of what would become Auschwitz concentration camp. The camp at that time consisted of a few old barracks and an abandoned tobacco factory. When Himmler visited in January, he and Hoess discussed it’s potential as a centre for agricultural research, however by 1st March when Himmler again visited, Hoess was given new orders. Despite Himmler’s objections, Goering has ordered that the IG Farben Buna plant, in accordance with the Four Year Plan is to be sited adjacent to Auschwitz. This he told Hoess would require a much larger camp and the development of a town for the ethnic German workers required by IG.

In order to provide the necessary work force, Himmler orders Hoess to expand the capacity of the camp to accommodate 30,000 instead of the original 10,000 inmates. In demonstration of the Fuhrerprinzip, when Hoess outlined the problems that he foresaw, such as a lack of materials, Himmler replied, “I want to hear no more about difficulties. For an SS officer there are no difficulties, when they come up, it’s his job to get rid of them. How you do that is your business, not mine.” (p64, Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution, by Laurence Rees).

On the 27th Hoess meets with Dr Otto Ambrose of the IG Farben company, as the minutes record “Both sides emphasized their wish to assist each other” (p64, as above). IG agreed to facilitate Hoess by paying 3 Reichsmark per unskilled worker and 4 Reichsmark per skilled worker. This sparked the start of the relationship with the SS providing slave labour to private enterprises up to this point it had been confined to work for the state. It was quickly realized that the situation could be mutually beneficial. Plans to accommodate ethnic Germans would soon be redundant; the camp would provide the major proportion of the work force and serve many other functions as IG expanded its operations from just Buna production.

Hoess, like most of the SS of the Concentration camps belonged to the SS-Totenkopfverbande. The unit formally designated in 1936 by Himmler, was established on the initiative of SS-Brigadefuhrer Theodor Eicke at Dachau, where he was Commandant, in 1934. He was appointed Inspector of Concentration Camps and Commander of SS guard formations in 1934 as his reward for his role in the Roehm Purge.

posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 05:38 AM
Part two - Economics and Logistics

On the 12th of March 1940, Hitler had declared that the Jewish Question was one of space and he didn't have any. After the fall of France, the idea of a Jewish colony on Madgascar had been resurrected, Eichmann's office had been sent for inoculations and 'Tropics Training'. However, with the increase in British Naval aggression, the idea had died in August. Now everyone was complaining; Hans Frank, Gauleiter of the General Government (Poland) refused to allow Poland to be a 'dumping ground' for Jews and demanded the removal of the Jews already there. Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazi ‘expert’ on all matters racial and ideological, complained that there were no homes for the Auslanders and Baldur Von Schirach (Head of the Hitler Youth and Gauleiter of Vienna) demanded to know why the deportations had not yet happened. And, this was the tip of the iceberg, all these demands fell on Himmler’s desk.

In January 1941 Hitler began preparing for the invasion of Russia and Heydrich began assembling the 3,000 men that would make up the Enisatzkommando. There were few volunteers, all divisions (SS, SD, Kripo, Gestapo etc) were then instructed to provide a quota. Finally by adding a financial incentive an adequate number of men ‘volunteered’ to form 4 units.

In March Hitler informed his Commanders-in-Chief of the Armed services “A war such as that against Russia cannot be conducted in a chivalrous manner. It is a struggle between ideologies and racial opposites and has therefore to be waged with unprecedented and merciless harshness.” (p146, SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp).

Although Heydrich’s staff had the plans for the deportation of the Reich Jews prepared, Hitler ordered that there were to be no deportations until after the war.

The Poles who had already suffered over a year at the hands of the Germans, in the first 6 weeks of the invasion of 1st September 1939, 16,000 people were shot, of which approximately 5,000 were Jewish. Teachers, Clergy, politicians, professionals – anyone deemed a threat to the invaders. 20,000 university students were sent to the concentration camps. Partisan actions against the occupiers were increasing and the SS responded with increasing brutality. In the months proceeding the invasion of Russia tens of thousands of boys and men of ‘fighting age’ (14 to 60 years of age) were rounded up and shot as ‘hostages’ in response to the death of any German personnel.

Just after the invasion of Poland, Helmut Meingold, an economist with the department of German Development Work in the East, concluded that 5.83 million Poles were surplus to German requirements and therefore constituted “an actual erosion to capital.” (p68, Auschwitz, by Laurence Rees) It can be considered no coincidence then that by the end of the war over 5 million Poles (non-Jews) had in fact been murdered at the hands of the Nazis.

From early spring 1940 mobile gassing units from the T4 division were touring the hospitals, just as they had in Germany, murdering psychiatric patients, all ‘useless eaters’ were to be eradicated, non-Jews were first assessed and only hopeless cases were killed. All Jewish patients were ‘eradicated’, hopeless or otherwise. The Euthanasia Unit used bottled carbon monoxide or injections of Phenol. The T4 project was suspended in early 1941 as war matters took precedence.

Hitler and Himmler were seemingly still looking for a territorial solution to the Jewish problem, emigration efforts were intensified but this method of removal remained inadequate. In response to criticism from Reichsmarshall Hermann Goering, that Poland was failing to meet economic targets, Hans Frank reiterated that the surplus population of Poles and Jews were hindering all his efforts and making the region economically unsustainable. He could not do his job until Himmler had accomplished his. The SS in Lublin were instructed to “where possible” force Jews across the border into Soviet held territory. In one instance, the Jews were ordered at gun point, to swim across the Bug river only to reach the other side where the waiting Red Army opened fire on those that did not turn around.

There was literally nowhere left for the Jews to go, war with Russia could only make matters worse. Like Himmler though, Hitler did not want to hear of problems from his subordinates, by the Fuhrerprinzip, Hitler merely had to state the goal, the whys and the hows were not his concern and so it was passed all the way down the line.

On 2nd May 1941 the Reichs economic experts reported that the war could only be sustained to the end of the year and only then, if the Germans were able to capture Russian supplies, “the entire German army…(would have to) be fed at the expense of Russia. Thereby tens of millions of men will undoubtably starve to death.” (p68, Auschwitz, by Laurence Rees). Not only would a war against Russia require additional resources but it would also drastically effect imports as Karl Schnure of the Economic Policy Division of the Foreign Ministry reported to von Ribbentrop in mid 1940, “Russia (has)…been a very substantial prop to the German war economy…has supplied over 300 million Reichsmarks worth of raw materials, roughly 100 million RMs of which is grain. Our sole economic connection with Iran, Afghanistan..China, Japan and beyond that, with South America is the route across Russia.” (p129 The Hitler/Hess Deception by Martin Allen)

In March 1941, in preparation for Operation Barbarrossa, Hitler issued the infamous Fuhrer-Order no. 1, “Kommissarbefehl”, all political commissars and Jews in service to the state were to be shot immediately on capture or surrender. Though the Nazis had by this time committed acts of great brutality this represented the first documented contravention of international law and was used as just cause in prosecuting the Nazis for war crimes.

The order was not received well within the armed services, after the war, under interrogation, General Heinz Guderian explained “The order granted German soldiers liberties which could easily have led to excesses…(the order) ran counter to the provisions of the Geneva convention. The supplement by Field Marshal Brauchitsch indicated that even the OKH…did not desire that the order be complied with. As a result I did not take the order with me to the field and did not distribute it…(and) treated the civilian population in conformance with the Geneva Convention and International Law.” (p529 Interrogations by Richard Overy, text in brackets mine)

On 10th May 1941 Rudolf Hess flew to Britain, reputedly on a mission of peace, to meet with the Duke of Kent (younger brother of the King and UGLE Grand Master) at the estate of the Duke of Hamilton. He crash landed just outside Glasgow and was arrested. Hess had been Hitler’s closest associate since 1921 and was considered a moderating force. Hitler, despite opposition within the Party appointed Martin Bormann to replace him as Deputy Fuhrer. Bormann was one of the few Party members who was on reasonable speaking terms with Himmler. Additionaly, he and Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, were also old friends having murdered a former teacher of Bormann’s together in 1924.

The Barbarossa Jurisdiction Order of 13 May 1941, ordered that any villages suspected of partisan or resistence activities were to be liquidated. The German economy did not have the resources to take on any more prisoners, only those capable of work were to be spared.

With everything in place for the invasion, the weather was the only element beyond Hitler’s control, a wet spring meant the plans would have to be delayed. While his armed forces worried that a late start could prove fatal to the whole campaign, Hitler remained optimistic issuing a directive on the 11th June that stated “After the destruction of the Soviet Armed Forces, Germany and Italy will be the military masters of the European continent.” (p130, Hitler’s War Directives by Hugh Trevor-Roper). Hitler, like many in Germany believed all too readily the ‘hype’ distributed from Goebbel’s propaganda ministry. Increasingly, fearful of losing favour, those around him, most particularly Goering were failing in their roles and were blaming everyone else around them, concealing the truth from the Fuhrer. Tucked away in the Wolf’s Lair and increasingly cosseted by Bormann, Hitler was completely ignorant of the rot that was beginning to set in to the German economy. Whether he chose to ignore the truth or was genuinely unaware is really unknown. Without Hess, Hitler was without anyone in the Party capable of speaking to him with any honesty, he would remain in this bubble to the very end.

The British at this time, sat perched on the edge of their seats. At a meeting on the 10th May, following Hess’s arrival in Britain, representatives of the Foreign Office (including Anthony Eden FS), the Ministry of Economic Warfare and SOE outlined their objectives “encourage Germans to attack Russia by misleading Hitler and by hinting that the large sections both in Britain and United States who preferred to see the overthrow of the Russian rather than the German regime might be prepared to force through a compromise a peace between Britain and German and combine to destroy the common enemy, Communism.” (p111, The Hitler/Hess Deception by Martin Allen). When the announcement came through that Hitler had invaded, Anthony Eden is said to have slapped his thigh and announced that Britain had won the war. Britain knew what Hitler didn’t, Germany was not capable of economically sustaining a war, they also knew that the best hope for Britain’s independence from a Eurasian superpower, was for the Fascists and the Communists to destroy each other in an ideological war. They were about to get their wish.

posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:20 AM

My both grandfathers fight with Germans, even when other was 50% jew, and he was a captain in motorized army, and he get medal from the Germans from his cooperation, when he organized movements of german soldiers.

Yes quite right there were numerous half Jews who fought for the Nazis. From memory I think Air Marshall Erhard Milch was one such. So they betrayed their own. So what does that prove ?

Hitler knew but was kept at arms length in order to be able to argue plausible deniability.

In 1943 a Hungarian Jew was sent to Palestine to offer terms to save the Hungarian Jews in return for 1,000 trucks to fight the Soviets.

Himmler discreetly began to save Jews in 1944 in attempts to appease the Western Allies. He had to do it discreetly because there was someone higher who would have had him arrested and shot for doing so.

There was only one person higher than Himmler that he needed to fear and that was Hitler.

Jews were used as slave labour, but those who couldn't work, old women and children were simply murdered and when the fit could no longer work, they were shot.

Just because they were used as slaves does not mean Jews were not also exterminated.

Germany followed a madman. Hitler was responsible, but so too were the mad men who followed him.

posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 04:07 PM
Part three - War

On 22nd June 1941 Germany launched the largest operation in military history; 3.2 million soldiers, 3,580 tanks, 7,184 artillery pieces and in excess of 2,000 aircraft. Hitler had every reason to be optimistic. 27 million Soviet citizens would eventually die as a direct result of this invasion. Whether by design or circumstance lebensraum in the East was achieved.

Behind the front lines four motorized divisions of the Heydrich’s Einsatzgruppen followed, however they initially found that there was little more required of them than to fan the flames. While the Einsatzgruppen rounded up the men of military age and shot them en masse, those liberated from Soviet oppression were only too willing to exact their ‘revenge’ on the local Jewish population. The Einsatzgruppen, in some cases only had to stand by and watch as Jews, men, women and children were beaten to death in the streets by their fellow countrymen.

The exact orders conveyed by Heydrich are unknown, and seemingly open to interpretation. While Group A (under Dr Franz Stahlecker) targeted Jewish as well as political targets, Group C (under SS-Brigadefuhrer Dr Otto Rasch) did not consider the Jews as specific targets and concerned themselves primarily with ‘political’ targets.

Karl Jager, leader of Einsatzkommando 3 and later commander of the SD in Latvia said in his interrogation after the war, “All I can remember, is that Heydrich stated in a speech that in the event of war with Russia the Jews in the East would all have to be shot..a police officer asked ‘You mean we have to shoot Jews’…Heydrich replied ‘Surely that is obvious.’” (p144 SS: A warning from History, by Guido Knopp)

Whatever the orders, the invasion descended quickly into brutality led primarily by local people eager to show allegiance to their new rulers and a desire for revenge against the fleeing communists. The Soviets in their retreat had brutally murdered tens of thousands. In the early days of Barbarossa all that was required of the Einsatzgruppen was to execute those suspected of being potential enemies of Germany; political opponents and intelligensia.

On the 29th June 1941 at Lvov in the Ukraine, one witness recalled, “There was a terrible pogrom. They (Ukrainian Nationalists) came at dawn and dragged Jews out of their houses. And the most dreadful thing was that they even killed the children.” (p149 SS: A warning from history by Guido Knopp). SS-Hauptscharfuhrer Felix Landau recorded in his diary “ Hundreds of Jews run along the streets, their faces covered in blood, gashes in their heads, fingers broken and eyes hanging out.”(p150, ibid). Over 3 days 4,000 Jews were murdered. Heydrich ordered that the German personnel should in no way interfere with such actions against the Jews by the local populace. The fervour of the local people was in fact wherever possible to be whipped up, the Einsatzgruppen, were happy to let the locals do the dirty work.

With war in the East, the situation in the Ghettos established in Poland to concentrate the Jewish populations, was worsening, starvation and disease were rife. On 16 July 1941 the head of the SD in Posen, Rolf Hoppner, wrote to Adolf Eichmann, “It should be seriously considered if the most human solution would be to kill those Jews not capable of work with some quick acting means. This would certainly be more pleasant than allowing them to starve to death.” (page 45, The Villa, The Lake, The Meeting: The Wannsee Conference by Mark Roseman). Goering had ordered that only those working for Germany were to receive food, supplies to the ghettos and work camps were severly cut. Soon Russian POWs were dying in huge numbers, at one point 200 a day were dying as a result of starvation, disease and brutal treatment.

Between 15th and 20th July, Himmler met with Hitler for extended periods almost daily. Himmler’s staff remember him as being highly agitated and unable to stand up to Hitler. Many recall him as being afraid of Hitler and totally under his will. Hitler places Himmler in control of civilian security in the occupied territories.

Himmler met with Odilo Globocnik on the 20th and instructed him to prepare for the Germanisation of the Lublin district. Himmler deployed a further 40,000 SS men to assist the Einsatzgruppen, these men, mainly of the Totenkopf Divisions of the Waffen-SS and conditioned in brutality via their training at Dachau, quickly eclipse the death count of the Einsatzgruppen.

It is noteworthy to mention that the British were ‘officially’ aware of the atrocities being committed as early as 18th July via messages intercepted and deciphered using the captured Enigma machine and codes. Information of the conditions in Poland though had been trickling in for some time and would continue to do so, Churchill himself had read Mein Kampf and was under no illusions as to Hitler’s intentions in the East.

In 1940 Francis Aldor published an pamphlet in London entitled ‘Germany’s Death Space’; “Very few details are allowed to leak out from the European “Devil’s Island” (Lublin); but those that do…are horrible enough. Thus it is known that thousands of Jews, men, women and children…have had to travel hundreds of miles in cattle trucks and have been dumped in the snow covered fields on arrival in the Lublin area…Before the course of the war interferes with Hitler’s plan, the Germans want to clear all Poles and Jews out of western Poland, all Jews out of central Poland and all Jews out of the Lublin area.” (p154-5 Hitler’s Man in the East: Odilo Globocnick: Joseph Poprzeczny).

From 18th August 1941, the Einsatzgruppen commanders were encouraged to send full reports of their actions back to Berlin. The detail contained in these transmissions can have left little doubt in the minds of the British as to the devastation that was being wrought upon the Jews in the East. Whether the British could have intervened or done anything to stop this carnage is unlikely but it should also be acknowledge that it is probable that had they the capability they would still have done nothing.

In 1940 Sir Robert Vansittart, chief Diplomatic Adviser to Anthony Eden wrote to the Secretary of State; “It is a question of we or they now, and either the German Reich or this country has got to go under…the German Reich…(has) been the curse of the world for 75 years, and if we do not stop it this time, we never shall…The enemy is the German Reich…not merely Nazism…the possibility of compromise has gone by, and it has got to be a fight to the finish, a real finish.” (p80 The Hitler/Hess Deception by Martin Allen)

In an attempt to avert the war that he knew the country could ill-afford Goering had passed details of the invasion to the Allies, the Allies response was to pass this via the Czech government in exile to General Zhukov. Stalin, who received several intelligence reports as to the planned date of invasion, chose to ignore this one too.

On 27 July 1941 Goering extended his orders to include supplies captured from the Russians to prevent their diversion to the ghettos and POW camps. Josef Goebbels requested that strict rationing be introduced in Germany, Hitler refused on the grounds that it would be bad for morale. He once again rejected the idea of Jewish deportations on the same basis, however he did agree to all those able to work be placed in forced labour programmes. Over the next four years more than 5 million people, mostly men, would be deported to forced labour camps across the Greater Reich from the East. The number who survived is unknown, many of those liberated from the camps found themselves whisked away after the war to a Siberian gulag. The dependents, left behind, old, infirm, women and children met their deaths much sooner.

posted on Mar, 19 2008 @ 11:26 PM
NO evidence!? He wrote a book.. Where he describes in convincing detail why jews are such a major problem that the only way to deal with them is to get rid of them. And since hitler's taking over the world there's no where to kick out to so.. They had to die.
I want to say Hitler actualy made some good points in Meine Kampf however after reading Anne Frank he's still an @ss.

posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 06:13 AM

Originally posted by Zealott
NO evidence!? He wrote a book.. Where he describes in convincing detail why jews are such a major problem that the only way to deal with them is to get rid of them. And since hitler's taking over the world there's no where to kick out to so.. They had to die.
I want to say Hitler actualy made some good points in Meine Kampf however after reading Anne Frank he's still an @ss.

The problem with Mein Kampf is ascertaining which parts that Hitler actually wrote - the chapters that deal with geopolitics were written entirely by Rudolf Hess, the arguments for Pan-Germanism were strongly influenced by Professor Karl Haushofer. Additionally, there is some suggestion that some of the anti-semite statements were added in subsequent printings by Goebbels (though not all - if you study Hitler's early speeches he was more anti-Zionist than anti-semitic). Goebbels was renowned for his 'reprints', he even pulled his doctoral theses from the archives at Heidelberg and had it amended so that it was more "National Socialist". However, Goebbels was very good at his job and a very effective book burner so there is no proof that I have come across. I would also expect that Dietrich Eckart had some input too.

The speeches of Hitler are a far more effective means of discovering the evolution of the persecution of the Jews, and more over Goebbels, who was a brilliant public speaker, set the tone and pace of the violence in the early years. It is pretty much universally accepted that the responsibilty for Kristallnacht falls squarely on Goebbels' shoulders. He could really whip up a crowd.

I agree Anne Frank's diary is a far better book and a testament to a talent lost.

posted on Mar, 20 2008 @ 03:38 PM
Part four - Genocide

Following the early successes of Operation Barbarossa, Hitler was optimistic that the war against Russia would be over in a matter of months. A British SIS initiative had successfully convinced him that German aggression against Communism could lead to a negotiated peace. He had a vague notion that the British would consider allowing the Jews to settle in some corner of Africa as part of the peace settlement. With these factors in mind he continued to reject all of Heydrich’s proposals for the removal of Jews by deportation east. While the Reich Jews were given temporary reprieve, in Russia, the murder was soon to become wholesale and it was in August that the genocide of the Eastern Jews began in earnest.

SS-Standartenfuhrer Paul Blobel testified after the war that he received the orders to shoot the Jews sometime around his birthday on the 13th August. The orders were seemingly vague in origin, but Blobel claimed he was told they were a Furhrer Order, and therefore originated with Hitler himself. “Dr Rasch informed us that Obergruppenfuhrer Jeckeln…had reported that the Reichsfuhrer-SS had ordered us to take strict measures against the Jews…All suspected Jews were, therefore, to be shot. Consideration was to be given only when they were indispensable as workers. Women and children were to be shot also in order not to have any avengers remain. We were horrified, and raised objections, but they were met with a remark that an order which was given had to be obeyed.” (p125 Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes).

Blobel had to be relieved of his command in early 1942 due to acute alcoholism, a problem rife within the SS and Einsatzgruppen killing circles, his career would be resurrected in July of the same year when he was placed in command of Aktion 1005, the operation to remove the evidence of the mass killings. At his indictment for war crimes over 59,000 executions were attributed to his unit (Sonderkommando 4a of Group C). It was under Blobel’s command that 33,771 Jews were murdered within 36 hours in September 1941 at Babi Yar.

Throughout the newly occupied Baltic states and captured Soviet territories the killing became commonplace and the murder squads diligently obeyed orders to utilize the enimity of the locals in the attacks against Jews. In the Ukraine in particular, who had suffered incredibly at the hands of their Communist overlords the SS found the populace to be enthusiastic accomplices.

A Wehrmacht driver described how the ‘incitement’ was enacted in one instance on the 7th August 1941; “Round and about stood about 150 civilians watching. There were also, of course, members of the Wehrmacht among the onlookers. The Jews sat on the ground…The guards asked the people standing around if they had any scores to settle. Thereupon more and more Ukrainians spoke up and accused one or other of the Jews of some misdemeanour. These Jews were beaten and kicked and ill-treated where they were, mostly by Ukrainians. This went on for about forty-five minutes.” (p124 Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes). Blobel then ordered that all 400 Jews should be shot. The truck driver remembered noticing how youthful the Waffen-SS executioners were.

In a report in October 1941, Dr Stahlecker (Group A) stated that, “In the very first hours after our arrival, local anti-semitic forces were incited to pogroms against the Jews…It was necessary to show the outside world that the indigenous population had taken the first steps themselves, as a natural reaction against decades of oppression by the Jews.” (p 150, SS: A warning from History by Guido Knopp)

On 15th August Himmler would witness at first hand the devastasting effect that these shootings were having on the men of the Einsatzgruppen and the SS. For his visit to Minsk a mass shooting of 100 Jews was specially arranged. The men were ordered to climb into a pre-dug pit and lie face down, they were then shot. Himmler watching from the edge of the pit, almost fainted and was physically sick.

He orders Higher SS and Police Leader of the South-east, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, to investigate a ‘more humane’ alternative to mass shootings. He subsequently instructed Artur Nebe to conduct the necessary experiments. Nebe’s first attempts involved cramming victims into a shed and blowing them up with dynamite, but between 3rd and 18th September Russian POWs are murdered in experiments to test the effectiveness of cyanide at Auschwitz, and in Minsk and Smolensk mobile gassing vans were used for the against Jews.

At Chelmno and Warthengau work had begun to expand the existing killing facilities.

Nebe, commander of Einsatzgruppen B, was connected with the resistence movement headed by Ludwig Beck and Hans Bernd Gisevius. Gisevius a member of Admiral Canaris’s Abwehr, would in 1943 serve as the resistance’s liaison to Allen Dulles in Switzerland. Nebe’s unit were credited with being responsible for the deaths of at least 45,000 men, women and children. Additionally he was responsible for the selection of the Allied prisoners of war in the Stalag Luft III massacre (the inspiration for the Great Escape). He claimed that he lost faith with the Nazis after being ordered to shoot Gregor Strasser in the Roehm purge of 1934 but was convinced by Ludwig Beck to work against the regime from the inside. Although he always followed his orders, he claimed that he was always troubled by them and only at Beck’s insistence did he not resign his posts. It was Beck, a member of the Thule Society, who introduced Hess to Professor Haushofer.

In September 1941, the OKW complained that Fuhrer Order no.1 was slowing down the advance. The commanders of the regular, non-SS forces were largely opposed to the mass shootings, although some regular Wehrmacht soldiers did, on occasion participate. Field Marshall Ritter von Leeb recalled of this time that “It was the first time I found myself…in a conflict between my soldierly conception of honour and my duty to obey…The troops disliked the order immensely.” (p55, The Scourge of the Swastika by Lord Russell of Liverpool)

Between 13th and 15th September Stalin ordered the deportation of the Volga Germans to Siberia. Alfred Rosenberg suggested that the Jews be deported in retaliation. The idea received widespread support from Party members and Gauleiters. Otto Abetz, the Nazi ambassador to France requested that the French Jews be deported and Hamburg appealed for the Jews to be removed to make room for Germans bombed out of their homes. The Czechs too requested that their Jews be removed.

With pressure mounting to allieviate the Jewish Problem, in consulation with Himmler, Hitler agrees to the deportation of 60,000 German Jews, a month later he agrees to the deportation of the Jews from the Czech protectorate to the Lodz ghetto.

Himmler wrote to Arthur Greiser of the 18th informing him that the Jews were to be deported first to the Lodz where they were to be held until the following spring, when they could be moved further east.

top topics

<<   2 >>

log in