The Radicalization of America

Yes we do probable agree on more than we disagree. You I believe are a more conservative liberal and I a more liberal conservative. What is your take on discipline in the school and what I perceive to be a lack of basics taught in the school?

It seems that there is no knowledge of civics or economics to be found. Having said that my children have only risen to the seventh grade as of yet.

How can we expect our children to function on a comparable level when they are taught diversity instead of unity? Yes we are all different and should respect one another for that, but we are all citizens of these United States.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn

What is your take on discipline in the school and what I perceive to be a lack of basics taught in the school?

When I was in public schools - 1940-1952, corporal punishment was no longer allowed. From friends of mine who attended Catholic schools, it was allowed although you can’t be sure they are not exaggerating. Every Catholic boy my age claims he was beaten on the fingers by ruler wielding nuns. My parents generation relished retelling the story of TWO beatings in their day. First when the teacher whipped them - with s switch I guess - then the second when they got home and told their father, who whipped them again.

Yet, they and we had Jesse James, Al Capone and John Dillinger and Bonnie and Clyde, so it does not look as if beating children improves them. And don’t forget 1892's Lizzie Borden.

“Lizzie Borden took an axe
And gave her mother forty whacks.
And when she saw what she had done,
She gave her father forty-one.”

It seems that there is no knowledge of civics or economics to be found. Having said that my children have only risen to the seventh grade as of yet. How can we expect our children to function on a comparable level when they are taught diversity instead of unity? Yes we are all different and should respect one another for that, but we are all citizens of these United States. respectfully reluctantpawn

Well, 50% was as good as I could do on the program,”Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader” so your children are way ahead of me. I attribute this apparent “disconnect” between us and them as being due to the explosion of knowledge. I’ve heard different numbers, but I’m sure we see knowledge double every 5-10 years anyway, if not as fast as some say.

When I was in high school, Encyclopedia Britannica had 22 volumes. Today, I guess it comes only on DVD and may be equal to old style 200 volumes. Today’s children have much more to learn! And we have added manners, civility and tolerance to the curriculum for our teachers to do in their “spare time.”

I have no children but I do have 13, 15 and 17 year old nieces. Two live in GA - in upscale Decatur a white enclave of Atlanta - and the other lives in KY in a 99.44% white school district, she being an adopted girl from Sierra Leone and genuinely black which has caused some consternation with the 7 or 8 other black children in her 300 student middle school.

I have helped each girl as the grew older do some homework because science is my favorite topic and their parents think I should know it. But those kids are doing work in the 5th, 6th and 7th grades I never did in high school. Not until college. Wow!

There are still only 168 hours in a week and a child has got to have time to be a child. It’s their only chance. Congratulations to you and My Best Wishes for your children!

For what's it worth, I worked for 27 years where I was involved in hiring and firing of others. It appeared to me an employer really wants only 2 things from a new employee: Punctuality and Honesty. In equal amounts. Come to work every day on time and don't lie or steal. All else can be taught and learned. Character cannot.

[edit on 4/15/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by reluctantpawn
How can we expect our children to function on a comparable level when they are taught diversity instead of unity? Yes we are all different and should respect one another for that, but we are all citizens of these United States.

A lot of us here on ATS have noted that our educational system--influenced by the government--has become hostile to the nuclear family and to civics. Until we insist on a return to something like those values, we're going to get what we deserve.

reply to post by Justin Oldham


I went to school in both Australia and New Zealand with the primary school years and one year of high school were in Australia . At one of the Primary's Schools I went to the Lords Pray was said at the weekly assembly's. I was never taught creationism in either country . In about my 2nd year of primary school we had bible stories read to us for a few weeks . I never took the bible stories as being anything but stories .

Also in primary school I can remember holding a mock election going by memory we were being taught the basics of the Australian political system . Pray never appeared in high school . Although when I went to high school in NZ there was a place were Muslims could go and pray but that didn't concern most of us.

The NZ school system isn't under threat from religious wackos at the moment but one must remain vigalint(SP?) . If religious extremists of any kind come up trumps we will be plunged back into the Dark Age.

There are other issues with the NZ school system such as it is not possible to fail anymore if you sit NCEA and people leaving school without basic literary(SP?) and numeracy.



[edit on 15-4-2008 by xpert11]

reply to post by xpert11

I went to school in both Australia and New Zealand; with the primary school years and one year of high school in Australia. I was never taught creationism in either country. he NZ school system is not under threat from religious wackos at the moment but one must remain vigilant. If religious extremists of any kind come up trumps we will be plunged back into the Dark Age. There are other issues with the NZ school system such as it is not possible to fail anymore if you sit NCEA and people leaving school without basic literary and numeracy.

I think America is unique in the West-Euro type countries. We are by far the MOST vociferous religious-speaking in our external conversations, but we are among the worst offenders in practice. Which condition reinforces my point made earlier, that religiosity has had no visible effect for good. That - external zealousness - must serve some deeper purpose otherwise people would not engage in it. But I'm no PhD.

My major source of quarrel and concern with the self described religious is not so much what they believe or claim to believe but that up here, so many of them want to impose their POV on me and everyone else. They are not satisfied to be free to believe the most inane things but want all others to concede to their lunacy by sharing in their outrageous belief system. Until the Age of Enlightenment, people could be excused for "believing" in anything however unlikely or ridiculous the belief might be.

After Copernicus and Galileo it became more and ever more difficult to remain totally gullible to every charlatan coming down the pike. At some point in time, you must say “NO” and think for yourself. HAVE you ever witnessed a “miracle?” I have never met a person who had. I’ve met many otherwise good people who WANT to have seen one but none that really did. And I don’t expect I ever will.

Life is tough. But you have to walk that path yourself, and walk it alone. Just two times in our lives are we equal to all others - at birth and at death.

[edit on 4/16/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
I went to school in both Australia and New Zealand; with the primary school years [in NZ] and one year of high school in Australia.

Just to clear up any misunderstanding.
I went to primary school in Australia I also did my first year of high school there. Anyway future generations of kids will crash and burn once the NZ education system splits them out but it is still a bit of a stretch to say that this will lead to wide spread social unrest.




[edit on 16-4-2008 by xpert11]

The Pope has come to visit the United States. I note with some humor that he's overshadowed the visit of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Religion and the hates associated iwth it do seem to be on the back burner for them oment. I think that's because there are so many other things in the news just now.

As the price of food goes up, religious leaders here in the U.S. are going to be taking an icnreasingly anti-government line. I bring this up to stay on topic, which relates to the radicalization that's going on right under our noses, here in America.

[edit on 16-4-2008 by Justin Oldham]

reply to post by Justin Oldham

The Pope has come to visit the United States. I note with some humor that he's overshadowed the visit of British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. As the price of food goes up, religious leaders here in the U.S. are going to be taking an increasingly anti-government line. I bring this up to stay on topic, which relates to the radicalization that's going on right under our noses, here in America.

Do you think the Pope has any intent to influence the outcome of the November 4 election? Like a "Vote for McCain Is a Vote for God?" I really don’t see how he could help either side especially the election being more than 6 months away. I have heard one GOOD Catholic explain how most Catholics - younger ones anyway - are throughly WASP-ized! White Anglo Saxon Catholics. Evidence of that is a recent poll showing 62% of Catholics approve of Roe v. Wade and the Right of Choice relating to abort or not to abort. Even worse for the papacy, 82% expressed disapproval of the American hierarchy. The Pope has "wisely" decided to IGNORE both issues.

Main stream Protestants - Presbyterian Church of the USA, United Church of Christ. Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and others along those lines, will not be talking BAD politics from the pulpit. They will stick to the Pro peace and Pro brotherly love line. Sharing. And etc.

Which message is so unpopular with the Hate Islam End Time Evangelical Fundamentalists. War and self aggrandizement being their line. Oral Roberts - is he really going to live forever? - and his son, Richard of the broken zipper complex. Jimmy “Cry me a River” Swaggart whose preference is voyeurism. Brother James Dobson wannabe Pope of Colorado. Charles Stanley, Once Saved Always Saved. Robert Schuller who smacked the Flight Attendant! And that reformed dance instructor in Miami, T. James Kennedy! You know who I mean. The RWRWs. Right Wing Religious Wackos.

I don’t see the WHITE religionists on either side of the political divide instigating a HARSH resistance to the BAD times we can see lay just ahead.

America's blacks know full well they are but 14% of the population and that whites have never hesitated to Shoot First Ask Questions Later. If at all. That is not only sobering, but tempering! I expect no help there. Unless whites make a series of bad moves. Which is always just a few gunshots away.

How about I nominate the recently retired Rev. Jeremiah Wright to be the ATS Chaplin, assuming he is available?

[edit on 4/16/2008 by donwhite]

I have to stand on what I've already said. The hard right religionists will be out of power during the next decade. That'll frustrate them, since they'll see the economic downturn as a sign of signs of prophecy and proof of various scriptural events.

The challenge for hte Democrats will be to avoid over-compensation as they pursue their sectarian agenda. both parties have demonstrated that htey can go too far.

It's quite possible that moderates like us will be the voices of reason in our respective camps.

As I posted earlier I believe that it may become a racial issue only because the people are too ignorant [classical sense] to know who to really blame. The hispanic will get blamed for taking all the jobs, the blacks will get blamed for taking all the government money, and the whites will get blamed for being the man and not caring for anyone else. Of course all of these are pure stereotypes, but those in power will use this against the people.

We need to educate the people of all backgrounds that the government is ours and that they serve us not the other way around. As long as we keep being spoonfed the diversity line the people will never unite to see where the blame really lies.

I also think that if we are indeed headed for a food crisis, as it appears, then those in the more urban environments will be hit much harder than those in the rural areas. The lifestyle differences and the proximity to the crops may play a important role of things to come.

These people that are closer to the growth of our food may play an increasing role in what may befall the powers that be.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by reluctantpawn

I also think that if we are indeed headed for a food crisis, as it appears, then those in the more urban environments will be hit much harder than those in the rural areas. The lifestyle differences and the proximity to the crops may play a important role of things to come. These people that are closer to the growth of our food may play an increasing role in what may befall the powers that be.

Actually, I've read that fewer that 500,000 people actually are farmers. I mean people who make their living off the land using their own sweat. Growing things to eat. Between corporations and Mexicans there are not many farmers left in America. Hey, I love Mexicans and I want them to have AMNESTY. We cannot get by without them. And of the 12-20 million up here, NOT ONE has been arrested for TERRORISM. Actually, the undocumented workers come from Central America, a few from South America and some from SE Asia. But Mexicans have been coming here forever and are the most numerous. Hey, as the Absolut ad showed, 1/3 of the US once belonged to Mexico.

The Imperial Valley in CA furnishes 50% of all our vegetables in the winter and 33% in the summer. They have the BIGGEST scam in the world! The US Govt. sells them (Mexico's) WATER at bargain basement prices. To multi millionaires. If they had to pay FAIR MARKET VALUE the cost of our food would DOUBLE.

Every day we are squandering WATER in the Great Plains from the Ogallala Aquifer to make Archer Daniels Midland RICHER! Ethanol. We’re using up the water put there at the end of the last ice age to make ethanol that has fewer BTUs than it takes to make and put into our tanks. Sweet Jesus! You can thank Senator Bob Dole and his earmarks for that.

But we’re on an alternate energy kick and using our brains is not welcome.

I know this is off topic, but I want to know...What is the agro situation in Florida?

Oil has passed $117 per barrell. As transport becomes too expensive, it may not matter what we grow. As transport costs out pace inflation, our food may simly become too expensive to be transacted.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

I know this is off topic, but I want to know ... What is the agro situation in Florida? Oil has passed $117 per barrel. As transport becomes too expensive, it may not matter what we grow. As transport costs out pace inflation, our food may simply become too expensive to be transacted.

In reverse order. Yes, I’d say 99% to 99.9% of the produce grown in Florida is shipped out of here by 18 wheelers. I-95 and I-75. And some on I-10. Diesel fuel may represent 30% of the cost of running an 18 wheeler. A great freeze about 10-12 years ago cost Florida orange and citrus fruit growers huge sums of money. Worse, it also allowed Brazil to begin serious exports of the same products into the US. Much of central Florida’s (Orlando) former groves are being turned into shopping malls, amusement parks and gated communities.

Water is now a hot topic. Based on current population growth rates, Central Florida will run out of water - for new growth - in 5 years. Already there is a move afoot to take 400 million gallons a day out of the St Johns River. That move is finding PRO river conservationists in strong opposition.

To my best knowledge all of Forida except the far west area around Pensacola - the Panhandle - draws its fresh water from a great aquifer. It runs well up into Georgia and over to SE Alabama then down to the Everglades. I’ve posted before that when I first lived in Jax - 1965 - the water wells here were 300 feet deep, but today the wells are 750 feet. More foreboding, guard wells are now required along the Atlantic coast into which water is pumped to FORESTALL the influx of saline water into the fresh water aquifer. Which is to say that in NE Florida fresh water is a (critical) problem. Rainfall patterns here have changed so that even today - April 19 - we are under a FIRE watch when the humidity falls below 30%. In olden days the fire season did not begin until June or July.

The St Johns River - mentioned above - is in great peril due to the run-off from the 1000s of beautiful green lawns and 100s of fruit groves on both sides of the river from its central Florida headwaters which begin about 120 miles south of Jax. Fertilizer is killing the river. Pesticides do not help but that is a contaminant that is harmful only if you drink it, whereas the phosphorus in fertilizer is food for the algae that turn our river PINK which is a symptom of a waterway in serious stress. The algae in turn consume much of the "free" oxygen in the water. 90% of all marine life in the river died off several decades ago.

If the Orlando area should get permission to draw down 20% of the river’s volume, that will hasten the general demise of the River. The River's problems have been debated for 30-40 years now. Everybody knows what must be done but no one knows how to accomplish it. It is estimated to cost $700 million to “clean up” the St. Johns River. But alas, all our money goes to Iraq!

Summary. Florida - the largest beef state east of the Mississippi - and a substantial dairy state, in addition to its famous oranges, lemons and grapefruits, is witnessing population growth taking farm land by the 1000s of acres every year. Now at 16 million people, it is expected to reach 25 million by 2020. But that number is optimistic and does not include solving the water issue. I’d say Florida is a bellwether.

What happens here is gong to hit the rest of the US just a little time later. Look at Atlanta. I’ve written here about their shortage of water. Atlanta is into its second year of a 100 years drought. The 2 lakes it depends on for water are down to a 9 months supply from the “normal” 2 years supply. Water conservation measures gain popularity in the summer but the public loses interest in the winter. Yet the water usage rate keeps climbing!

Consider Atlanta for a minute. Q1. If you are Mayor, at what point in the reservoirs water reserve do you decide to ORDER a GENERAL evacuation of the city? Q2. Where do you send 3 million people? 6 times the number in New Orleans at Katrina-time. Suppose the people cannot ever return to Atlanta. What do you do? You cannot just shoot them. The people in Chattanooga are also in a water crisis. And etc.

Florida. Atlanta. You will be hearing more from each in the next 5-10 years. I guarantee it!


Post Script. Despite what you may have concluded while watching the classic movie “Gone with the Wind” Atlanta was not the capital of Georgia when Ger. Sherman invaded. GA has had 5 capital cities. First was Savannah. Next came Augusta. Then came a failed city - Louisville - because the state’s high officials refused to move from Augusta to the isolated village claiming barely 300 residents. It was chosen only because it was closest to the geographical center of the state. Finally a compromise was made, and the capital moved to Milledgeville. It was 1867 when under Union Army duress the public voted to move the capital to Atlanta.

[edit on 4/19/2008 by donwhite]

What you describe sounds like ore radicalization to me. If you're fighting voer ater, you'll certainly be ready to fight over other things when the economy tanks. When teh pirce of food is affected by the price of oil AND the price of water...

reply to post by Justin Oldham

What you describe sounds like ore radicalization to me. If you're fighting over water, you'll certainly be ready to fight over other things when the economy tanks. When the price of food is affected by the price of oil AND the price of water ...

A DOUBLE whammy! Oil and Water. Oil sets new record prices every day! The “cost” of both oil and water is a lot like that of other common commodities. HIDDEN by various tax favors and facilities furnished but not charged fully against the end product. Food is another. And etc.

We are operating in a economic system that evolved in the horse and buggy era and we're trying to shoot the moon!

Aside. No cost to taxpayer’s AID for the POOR. Issue plastic with "CREDITS" encoded. For example, a qualifying poor person could get ½ OFF the price of edibles one time a week at his local store. More food with more dependents. If he works, he could buy up to 20 gallons of gasoline a week at half price. Just slide his US Dept of Ag card in the electronic reader and he's off to the races.

LET THE RETAILER adjust his selling prices as he or she sees fit to make up his losses helping the poor. To be fair, limit the number of poor to be served to say, 10% of full paying customers. Direct cost to Gov't? NOTHING. Charity is PRIVATIZED! Those who say let GOD provide can actually help GOD provide!

I hate to keep repeating myself, but mischievous RADICALS need cover. The only group in the US with sufficient grievances to offer cover is African Americans. They are our LAST and BEST hope to undo the autocracy we are fast constructing here.

Be nice to colored people. They may save our skins. Again.

Interesting that you should mention water, again. I was listening to a talk being given by University of Alaska profs who were making the case for a continued economic boom here in Alaska be-cause we have such abundant water that things like hte upcoming natural gas line will NOT be stopped, slowed, or impacted.

Who knows? A sthe economy tanks down down in the States, we could see a mass exodus of workers, coming to Alaska for jobs. I bring this up becuase Don and I have talked through e-mail abou the potential for population shifts due to the coming economic crisis.

What happens when too many unemployed radicals end up in one place?

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Interesting that you should mention water, again.

Given that there is already not enough water for basic survival in parts of the world it is no wonder that with changing weather patterns water is going to be a part of the shortage of affordable natural resources shortage . More specify water and Oil will come share a high or higher price range.

Bear in mind that beyond sustaining life water is used to generate electricity and has industrial uses. All of this is before you factor in peak food .

What happens when too many unemployed radicals end up in one place?

Well a lot depends on geographical location but generally speaking what has been discussed in this thread . A lot depends on just how radical the radicals are there is still a leap from activist activity's and taking up arms against your country and the the kind of mob rule that was seen in Germany in the 20s .

The US isnt helped by the fact a political system built around lobbyists doesn't allow for any middle ground . Just take a look at US education system either creationism is being taught or kids are being kicked out of school for wearing a cross . The NZ political system allows for both moderate and extremist positions depending upon the circumstances .

[edit on 21-4-2008 by xpert11]

As Don has laready mention,ed the U.S. food situation is teetering on disaster. To stay on topic, I will point out that water shortages will only increase radicalization. Farmers can be quite militant, when they are at risk of losing their livelihood.

I have been observing the radicalization being discussed here for some years now....among both my conservative and liberal friends....and I predict the times we are headed into will make some very strange bedfellows in terms of groups aligning for action and change...interests will converge in surprising ways, particularly as the economic belt tightens more and more, and as the fed tightens its grip further- the old adage of " the enemy of my enemy is my friend" will come into play more and more as times toughen...and the speed with which our economy is declining is breathtaking at the moment and has taken a lot of Americans by surprise........I think domestic unrest is not so far off....a decade of unrest? Thats a conservative estimate perhaps....?

reply to post by realshanti

I predict the times we are headed into will make some very strange bedfellows in terms of groups aligning for action and change ... interests will converge in surprising ways, particularly as the economic belt tightens more and more, and as the Fed [Reserve System?] tightens its grip further - the old adage of " the enemy of my enemy is my friend" will come into play more and more as times toughen ... and the speed with which our economy is declining is breathtaking at the moment and has taken a lot of Americans by surprise ........ I think domestic unrest is not so far off .... a decade of unrest? That’s a conservative estimate perhaps ....?

Law and Order. The two go together. Iraq for example, has more ORDER than it has LAW. Which in turn diminishes the OPPORTUNITY for the ORDER side of the coin to be effective. A cop must have a judge to take his accused before, promptly, and with both sides expecting FAIRNESS from the LAW. No judicial system, no effective ORDER imposing system. The cop on the beat becomes the judge and jury!

Law and Order Pt 2. The US Armed Forces have had several decades of URBAN warfare training. This alerts me to the high RISK involved in employing a HIRED or MERCENARY Armed Force. Oh, I know, we lovingly call it the ALL VOLUNTEER Army but in fact it a HIRED Army doing what up until the 1970s debacle in Vietnam, we had employed CITIZEN soldiers to do. The recent lowering of admission standards to get into the Armed Forces bodes ill for us in the short term, not to speak of the long term. These men (and women) we are taking into the Armed Forces will gain positions of power and influence. Do you want a former burglar as the Navy's CNO? Chief of Naval Operations.

It has already been pointed out here by others how deficient the curriculum of the Service Academies is to bring us generals and admirals from. I have written before about the NASTY tendency of the US Navy to have grand-father, father and son all as admirals.

Nepotism at its worst and most dangerous potential for foul deeds. Couple that mentality with the “swinging door” that runs between Defense contractors and middle level to high level Army and Navy officer corps and you have compounded your problem.

The likes of Northrop-Grumman Shipbuilding Company will have unlimited sums of money at their unaccountable disposal to lobby, to advertise and to fund activities totally antithetical to democracy in general and America’s democracy in particular. Northrop and Grumman were airplane builders but have suddenly morphed into boat builders and have the good-for-a-generation contract to build the USS Gerald Ford, our FIRST of a new class of super-supercarriers. What a EARMARK that is.

Let me close this overlong diatribe by waning that loyalty typically goes to the person who sign your paycheck. All the more if that person also controls your advancement. And if that person has your retirement in his hands! Compound that with the ORDER the subordinate person MUST obey ALL lawful orders, and you have a prescription for disaster just waiting to happen!

Remember this: Who determines what is or is not a LAWFUL order?

[edit on 4/23/2008 by donwhite]