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The Radicalization of America

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posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 12:44 AM
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You're quite right. In spite of the fact that we have hard times coming, we should keep our heads and talk this thing through, rationally. That's why I started this discussion thread.




posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by ianr5741
 


Unfortunately those that are knowledgable about the issues at hand will not be the ones that take up violence. It will be the poor underclass that will be looking for a scapegoat.[i.e. the white devil, the illegals, the blacks etc.] When the food is either cut off or to expensive to buy, when federal assistance is eliminated, and jobs are reduced. The underclass will rise up and we may see cities burning again as in the 60's.

The PTB are aware of this and can then instate martial law to restore order. At this point all constitution law will be thrown out the window and they can do as the please in the name of restoring order.

At this point in time those that have survived may well do anything to get another meal. There are just too many people that have come to rely on others to maintain their existence. A hungry cold people are generally very easy to manipulate.

Those that are aware of what is gong on will be hard pressed to maintain any type of resistance, civil or otherwise.

It is a shame that there are those that in their quest for power will turn a civilization upside down and destroy what was once a proud nation. It is our only hope that those that see what is going on can educate those that do not. However as much faith as I have in the American people I cannot see them uniting until it is too late.

On this site we have many that may disagree and can do so respectfully. In the real world the people just do not have that type of control. When an entire generation is brought up to believe that life is owed to them and to get ahead any way possible it becomes next to impossible to teach them that by working together one may cure all of what may befall a people.

As was said earlier a government cannot legislate from the top down, the people must legislate the government from the bottom up.

Unfortunately I feel we will see violence, but not in an uprising against the government. I too do not like the idea of violence but I feel it will come.

respectfully

reluctantpawn



posted on Apr, 8 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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You'd be surprised how many people have NOT given this matter any thought. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this conversation. If more of us talk about this now, there could be less bloodshed leater on.



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 07:59 AM
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posted by reluctantpawn
It will be the poor underclass that will be looking for a scapegoat. [i.e. the white devil, the illegals, the blacks etc.] When the food is either cut off or to expensive to buy, when federal assistance is eliminated, and jobs are reduced. The underclass will rise up and we may see cities burning again as in the 60's. The PTB are aware of this and can then instate martial law to restore order. At this point all constitutional law will be thrown out the window and they can do as the please in the name of restoring order.


I made the joke then - 1972 - that Nixon would do that. Actually it was the 1968 election that was more at risk. That was the one where Mayor Daley of Chicago launched his POLICE riot on the demonstrators. That act alone gave Nixon the election IMO. That was not Daley's intention but he was cut from the same mold that John Edgar Hoover came out of. Very low tolerance for dissenters. Especially anti-fascist dissenters.

Aside from destroying the FBI - from which it has not yet recovered - and ignoring American civil liberties he swore to defend, and blackmailing Congresspersons - and just maybe arranging the assassination of MLKJr - he was a comic-book national icon. You may be able to tell Hoover is on my list of Men to HATE.

Bush43 remains a mystery to me. I think he is the worst prepared person to be president since Warren G. Harding who did not want the job. He is absolutely ideology driven - much like a Reagan clone - and cares not a whit for the facts when they do not support the conclusion he has already reached. There has been only ONE person around Bush43 that I have high regard for and that was Colin Powell.

Trading on Powell's misguided sense of loyalty, Bush43 ruined the man in the UN speech of February, 2003, with the pure crapola he was “forced” to deliver. Bush43 traded Powell’s well deserved reputation for truth and veracity for the furtherance of the WMD lies propagated by the Tripartite Dictatorship - Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld.


It is a shame that there are those that in their quest for power will turn a civilization upside down and destroy what was once a proud nation. It is our only hope that those that see what is going on can educate those that do not. However as much faith as I have in the American people I cannot see them uniting until it is too late.


Faint not, Mr R/P. Recall from history that Woodrow Wilson had to promise to KEEP American out of the Great War, to win reelection in 1916. You can never be absolutely sure whether he believed the LIE but it is doubtful. He should have been well enough informed to know it was impossible given the facts that the US was supplying war munitions to England and France while claiming to be neutral.

A similar occurrence happened again in the 1940 election when FDR sought an unprecedented 3rd term which in itself was a long standing no-no. Add to that the urgency of getting the country ready - the draft began in 1940 - for what he strongly suspected would be a world wide war, FDR had to make the same promise to keep the American boys out of the War in order to be elected. As a devotee to FDR I of course believe he was the best of all possible men to have as our Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces in the Second World War which is sometimes called the LAST battle of WW1.

[edit on 4/9/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by donwhite
 


I just don't think that we have people that truly have the welfare of the people in mind available for office, be they right or wrong. I think I could vote for someone I completely disagreed with if I thought they really had the betterment of the people in mind. All politics aside, It appears that all the candidates are already bought, and the american people were not the high bidder.

respectfully

reluctantpawn



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 01:30 PM
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The kind of peole whom you want to vote for ARE out there, but...things aren't yet bad enough to "motivate" them. That's why discussions like this are necessary. You can vent, and you can come to grips with this situation. It may be safe to say, at this time, that a lot of people really don't know what they want from their leaders.



posted on Apr, 11 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


The kind of people whom you want to vote for ARE out there, but ... things aren't yet bad enough to "motivate" them. That's why discussions like this are necessary. You can vent and you can come to grips with this situation. It may be safe to say at this time, that a lot of people really don't know what they want from their leaders.


The people don't know what they want and maybe as bad if not worse, DON"T know what their leaders can and cannot do. To leave or to stay in Iraq is easy to shout about on the campaign podium but when you are the PERSON who must make the FINAL decision that will shape the world for a decade or two, it is not so easy. Certainty disappears. This is said not to JUSTIFY the irresponsible (impeachable if we just had the cohonnies) Bush43 decision to go to war in Iraq, but it is to remind that like B'rer Rabbit and Tar Baby, it is not as easy to GET OUT as it was to GET IN.

Bush43 is not satisfied to have waged a mismanaged War based on his own LIES for now 5 years and running, but he CANNOT finish it in the 9 months remaining on his Designated Presidency. Now he wants to muck up his successor by ACTING humane - him of 154 death warrants - he never saw an electrocution he did not like - by reducing the length of a tour that his own ineptness caused to be lengthened in the first place, to 12 months from the current 15 months. Because he is more mouth that guts - worse, brains - he puts this empty gesture OFF until August, so that it is his successor who will have to deal with an automatic 20% reduction in available troop strength in Iraq or become the horse's ass by lengthening the tour of duty.

Please GOD
, if you LOVE us like YOU claim, do not ever again put a spoiled brat AWOL Air Guardsman like Bush43 in as our president! IF YOU LOVE US.

[edit on 4/11/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 05:24 AM
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I'm wondering how many of today's Iraq war veterans will become the militant agitators of the next decade? It's not unreasonable to suggest that we may see a rebirth of the agressive activism that brought so much violence to the 1960's.

Don? What do you recall from your experiences during that period?



posted on Apr, 12 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


I'm wondering how many of today's Iraq war veterans will become the militant agitators of the next decade? It's not unreasonable to suggest that we may see a rebirth of the aggressive activism that brought so much violence to the 1960's. Don? What do you recall from your experiences during that period?


I’d say there were three different groups that went to war in Vietnam. Disregarding those MAAG sent in by Truman and Eisenhower. Military Advisory and Assistance Group. The French Foreign Legion - mostly German ex-Wehrmacht from WW2 - lost at Dien Bien Phu in 1954. At Geneva a conference agreed to divide Vietnam into a pro communist half, North Vietnam, and an anti communist half, South Vietnam. At the 17th parallel of latitude.

This agreement provided for an election country-wide in 1956 to establish the unified government of a new Vietnam. In the south, a puppet state was established under the Emperor Bao Dai, a former puppet of the French and collaborator with the Japanese. When the promised election time came, the US seeing that its side would loose overwhelmingly, balked. We agreed to back the Diem puppet government if it would reject the election. It did, we did. And we had ourselves a war.

ASIDE:
I assert the major source of violence in Iraq is the similar effort of the United States to install a puppet government in Baghdad. We vetted 1,500 candidates for the Iraqi parliament. Out of that “approved” list the Iraqi got to choose their government. Our public rationale was to de-Ba’ath-ize the country. Everyone would approve of that. After all, Saddam was a Ba’athist! So we want OUR hand picked people to RUN Iraq. Then we wrote their “constitution.” Well, a few Iraqi lackeys wrote it with L Paul Bremer looking over their shoulder. Every time they wrote something we liked, they would get a $1,000 bill. When they wrote something we did not like, we’d threaten them with abu Ghraib. 4,032 young Americans have gone KIA and 80,000 Iraqi to achieve this state of affairs. Hmm? When will we learn?

RESUME.
We gradually inched up our numbers of soldiers in South Vietnam under Ike and then under JFK. It was under the latter’s tenure that our MAAG was authorized to use preemption techniques. On a small scale of course, as we had only between 2,000 and 3,000 men stationed there. As we escalated, so did the North Vietnamese and their surrogates, the local Viet Cong guerillas. Just prior to Kennedy’s tragic death, we had either killed or had killed or agreed to have killed the 2 Diem brothers who were ruling the country. One was “president” - our title bestowed on a compliant dictator - and the other the head of the dreaded Secret Police. Murder for Hire.

It was here that the ugly head of religion cropped up. 95% of the ruling South Vietnam oligarchy were Catholics. In a Buddhist country. They had been the lackeys for France and converted for power. They were the ones who FLED south because their good times were about to end. Madame Nu - wife of the Secret Police Diem - was the over-eager Catholic who hated the 90% of the people who were Buddhists. The Buddhist monks were protesting the favoritism shown to Catholics. She inveigled her husband and Bro in Law to invade the Temples and kill and capture the leading monks. The monks responded by the series of gruesome self-emulations on the streets of Saigon so poignant when seen on tv.

Now LBJ becomes president. His personality is not one familiar with defeat. He did not get to be president by being a loser. But he forgot he was president because he was the BEST at compromise. But how could a 6 foot 6 inch white Texan even talk with a 5 foot 4 inch dark skinned slop eyed, bearded half dressed Communist?

So LBJ decided he needed to show Ho Chi Minh why he ought to be happy to listen to Americans TELL him how he would run his country. We escalated our armed forces. I believe it was in 1964, we crossed the 100,000 soldier and marine strength level. These would have been men left over from the Korean War era. They were mostly “play-like” soldiers. If drafted, it was for 2 years. If enlisted it was for 3 years. Not many Americans had died in “Nam by the end of 1964. Hey, it was election year and even GOOD Dems have to watch the polls too! The GOP sent them a God-send in Barry Goldwater. Barry’s endearing quality - speaks the truth (as he understands it) before he thinks about the consequences - made LBJ’s task easy.

After his big win and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution from Congress which he preferred to interpret as an open ended commitment up to and including WAR as Bush43 has also chosen to do - that’s the fault of Congress in both instances. Now comes the second wave of US Armed Forces into Vietnam. These men are mainly draftees who did not want to go to ‘Nam. They were there when the My Lai Massacre occurred. Rule 1 for Colonels. You never put scared and frustrated soldiers under a weak platoon leader into positions where doing the right thing is not immediately obvious.

To end this over-long report, then came 1968 when it was believed the War would be ended. Instead we got such innovative items as Linebacker II, when Hanoi was bombed. These men - post 1969 - were the ones who had to fight, rice paddy by rice paddy. These were the men who captured a point on a map with large losses then were told to withdraw. I believe it was the SECOND contingent of soldiers and marines who took to the streets in America. I believe John Kerry was in what I’ve called the THIRD wave. Men who did their duty knowing both it was WRONG and that it had FAILED. Those are real heroes.

In the late 1960s Vietnam got mixed in throughly with Civil Rights. MLKJr was assassinated April 4, 1968. Civil Rights. Robert Kennedy was assassinated June 3, 1968. Anti Vietnam War. Both assassinations revived vivid memories of the JFK assassination not even 5 years past. Three American heroes had been killed by lunatics. Any person of Liberal persuasion felt severely depressed and seriously disenchanted.

We wondered aloud, WHAT can possibly happen next? By 1972, most people like me had given up on ever getting out of Vietnam. That we were losing - nay were always losing - made not a whit of difference to the president of either party. It was a gloomy time in America. Barely offset by LBJ’s magnificent work in Congress - Civil Rights Act - Public Accommodations Act - Voters Rights Act - Great Society programs - EEOC - Affirmative Action - were the one spark of light in a very dark time.

[edit on 4/12/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 05:40 PM
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Oil recently sold for an all-time high of $112.21 per barrel. As the world economy continues to decline, I can't help but notice that many of the same anti-government attitudes that you saw in the 60's are starting to re-emerge.

I was too young to experience them first hand, but I did study them in school. It's looking like de javu. In this case, the 'fuel' for the unrest here at home will be mostly economic, rather than mostly racial. Race will certainly play its role in the hate that spills out on to our streets.



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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Changing weather patterns and a failure to ensure a reliable and sufficient supply of electricity are the greatest threats to the future health of the NZ economy. There isnt enough political will to deal with either issue . Should we fail to develop GE/GM cows that can produce the amount of high quality milk with less rain fall and come to grips with Nuclear power NZ could well become a third world country independent of the global economy.



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by xpert11
 


Changing weather patterns and a failure to ensure a reliable and sufficient supply of electricity are the greatest threats to the future health of the NZ economy. There isn’t enough political will to deal with either issue. Should we fail to develop GE/GM cows that can produce the amount of high quality milk with less rain fall and come to grips with Nuclear power NZ could well become a third world country independent of the global economy.


I never thought I’d be the one to say this, but if GM stands for ‘genetically modified’ then I’m one for going SLOW on this. Not because it will make GOD mad but because as we learn more and more how the LIFE on earth is threatened by our technology, I’m for caution! I was just listening to the Chaos Theory and the ‘butterfly effect’ being explained on tv this AM. We ‘know’ only about 1% to 10% of what there is to know. That’s based on some exponential curves.

Well, on the plus side NZ is few enough people to be “family” and should be able to reach an agreeable consensus fairly quickly when the time comes. Debate and time for contemplation must come first.

As for nuclear power - it must be the major source for the next half century. What about wind? Will the Kiwi’s object to 200,000 to 300,000 giant windmills whirling about? Giant means 300 feet - 100 meters - towers and 3 or 4 150 feet - 50 meter - blades! You will need at least one large nuclear power plant on each of the 2 large islands to STAND-BY when the wind don’t blow. Sort of like 17th century Holland gone far south!

On the downside, NZ is a long boat ride to anywhere. That adds costs per mile for anything you ship. But take heart! The Japanese imported iron ore from Australian, coal from China and turned it into cars which they then transported across the big Pacific to the US of A where they sold the cars cheaper than those made here and still made a PROFIT! It can be done!

Lucky NZ! The US has problems we can only SHUFFLE around, NZ has problems that can actually be solved!


posted by J/O
Oil sold for an all-time high of $112.21 per barrel. I can't help but notice that many of the same anti-government attitudes that you saw in the 60's are starting to re-emerge. I was too young to experience them first hand. It's looking like deja vu. In this case, the 'fuel' for the unrest here at home will be mostly economic, rather than mostly racial. Race will play its role in the hate that spills out on to our streets.


Duval County - Jacksonville - Florida has 775,000 people. We have 2,300 police. We had 110 homicides last year. We have had 27 already by March 31. In the past 15 months, the police have KILLED 10 people “while doing their duty.” The high sheriff - old English term - our elected police chief - says he is surprised at the RESTRAINT his officers are showing! 7 shot dead last year, 3 shot dead in 3 months this year.See Note 1.

Solution? How about MORE OF THE SAME? OK, it’s another top down, white decides for black that marks (or mars) America. HIRE 225 more cops! Cost to city? $65,000 per year per cop. $15 m per year. Plus another $5 m to $10 m overhead costs. Ad nauseam. But the ROOT cause is not addressed. It's like our War on Terror. We prefer to TREAT the symptom than to address the causes. Simplistic! Nay, ignorant.

Sweet Jesus! Can’t we ever learn? Why not ask the Black Community to TELL us what needs to be done? No, we will TELL them! Hey, whites don’t ask blacks what to do. We tell them. That’s America! After all GOD did make whites the superior race.


Note 1.
In January, ‘07, barely 2 months after 10 Atlanta No Knock Warrant DEA type cops shot and killed a 92 year old great-grandmother in her own home for all she knew resisting a home invasion, popular in Atlanta, a somewhat similar incident happened here in Jax. Oh, yeah, if you didn't know, she was black and she did NOT live in a gated community.

Two ratty dressed bearded undercover narcs of the Jacksonville PD posted themselves on the street but just outside the home of an elderly retired live alone man. He saw the two men and assumed they were there to sell drugs. Not uncommon in his neighborhood. Which was a correct assumption on his part but what he did not know was because they were cops, IT WAS LEGAL for them to offer to sell drugs.

He came to his front door and called on them to MOVE ON! Yes, he was black. An old black man had learned LONG ago NOT to call the police. First, odds are the PD will not come. Next, odds are if the PD do come you will be insulted or ultimately arrested yourself on a DC charge. Disorderly conduct. That - DC - in white America is a black man asking a cop a challenging question. God Bless America!

The two undercover narcs ignored the old homeowner man. He came out on his porch a second time, again asking them to MOVE ON. Again they ignored him. Then, he came on the porch a third time, but now armed with his own .38 pistol. He ORDERED the 2 to MOVE ON. Here the story diverges. The TWO cops claim the ONE old man shot at them. They retreated behind a tree, both of them unharmed.

From this position of safety they COULD have called for a Black and White to come defuse the situation. But no, instead both cops did the Christian thing and RETURNED FIRE as they described it. Shucks, the TWO cops shot DEAD the ONE old man on his own front porch! The Sheriff personally investigated (a especially bad police practice) and found the two cops “acted properly” when their lives were endangered. This is one more reason WHY black people DO NOT TRUST COPS and don’t particularly want to talk to them either. 99% of such conversations are ONE WAY anyway!

When 10,000 Rev. Jeremiah Wrights across the country shout this from their pulpits on Sunday morning, the crowd goes wild with approving shouts and applause. THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON! Whites don't. This is therapeutic for black people! Pure therapy. It keeps them going. Like doing the 10s for young black men.

Hey, this is RACE relations in 2008, NOT 1868! Q. How many white guys have you heard the police shot 43 times in NYC? Or in any city? Racism? Amen! 4 white copes armed with 13 shot Beretta semi-auto pistols. Jeez! That was 52 rounds fired with 43 hits. 83% shooting. Marksman grade in the MC.

[edit on 4/14/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 05:20 PM
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How many black voters are going to remember what Barack Obama did to lose the Presidential nomination? Are they going to care IF he loses by virtue of his own words and deeds? Is the temptation to act out going to be too great, in spite of what the facts may be?



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
I never thought I’d be the one to say this, but if GM stands for ‘genetically modified’ then I’m one for going SLOW on this.


That is pretty much what we are doing what remains to be seen is if we can keep enough of our brightest brains in the country and at some point in the future we are willing to take the next step. This what puzzles me about the US you don't suffer from a brain drain and yet you haven't adapted to the global market based economy.


Well, on the plus side NZ is few enough people to be “family” and should be able to reach an agreeable consensus fairly quickly


That is good and all but there is no viable solutions at this rate. Nuclear Power is to unpopular to be viable this is why National wont touch the issue. Sure Wind Power could be an alternative but no one wants the turbines on there land nor do they want the presence of massive power pylons(SP?) .

All of which means the most logic and environmentally friendly option is to build a Nuclear Power plant in Auckland. I have nothing against Hydro Power but it is far to climate depended .



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by xpert11
 


That is pretty much what we are doing what remains to be seen is if we can keep enough of our brightest brains in the country and at some point in the future we are willing to take the next step. This what puzzles me about the US you don't suffer from a brain drain and yet you haven't adapted to the global market based economy.


Up here by careful breeding - for over 100 years - and artificial insemination - for over 50 years - we have managed to increase milk output per cow 3X to 6X over the "normal" amount. This was well before Watson and Crick. Brown Swiss cows stand 1.6 m. at the hip. Some breeds like Hereford and Black Angus are raised for steaks and chops. Guernsey are for lots of milk and Jersey are for rich milk. Major milk producers blend milk from many sources to achieve and maintain a particular flavor. Up here we sell 4% butterfat as the TOP of the line. 2%, 1% and 0% is offered. (I use 2%) All our milk has vitamin D added. A gallon of milk has risen in price from $2.99 last year to $3.99 this year. (I've seen $4.49.) Part of that is due to the doubling of crude oil prices in the same time period. Q. Do you think I'm a communist when I say every child through age 6 should have one gallon of milk a week FREE at Government expense?

Brain drain up here? No, you're right. Very few people are leaving Semi Valley in CA to go to Dubai in UAE. At least, not to live. But we have something WORSE! Something more insidious. The overzealous End Time RELIGIOUS of America have captured the public schools. Beginning around 1980, they have systematically neutered the schools. Those ignorant zealots have found an easy and workable alliance with the R&Fs who do not want to pay the taxes needed to have quality education. At least, for the public. The R&Fs send their own children to expensive private schools where dumbing down to GOD is not allowed. I am worried for our future. The Tennessee Scopes Trial was in 1926. Those anti evolution zealots never gave up! You have to give them credit for that. It is a tragedy. 60% of Americans believe in ANGELS. Real angelic beings! I thought angels went out of business in the 19th century! What are you going to do when you have a society wallowing in superstition? Flounder to answer my own question in one word.


" . . there is no viable solutions at this rate. Nuclear Power is too unpopular to be viable this is why National [Party] won't touch the issue. Sure Wind Power could be an alternative but no one wants the turbines on there land nor do they want the presence of massive power pylons. All of which means the most logical and environmentally friendly option is to build a Nuclear Power plant in [remote] Auckland [on the North Island]. I have nothing against Hydro Power but it is far to climate depended.


Aside: For American readers, NZ has 102,000 sq miles, and 4.2 million people, much like our state of Colorado. Wellington, the capital, lies near the 40th parallel of South latitude, like W-DC but North. 8,700 mi. (14,100 km.) separate the two cities.

I've already posted that the Bush43 Administration is currently licensing 80 nuclear power plants to be constructed here. Sadly, I'm as sure as I am alive that the GOP has SCREWED the American people by writing sloppy practices into the permits along with OSHA and EPA exclusions! I wish ALL of the permits would be thrown out on January 20, 2009 and the process begun over again and done right this time. Otherwise we'll have Three Mile Islands all around us. We are letting the industry write the permits! You cannot put the fox in to watch the hen house.

And more bad news. I foresee the TAXPAYERS paying for the new power plants under the guise of "Energy Independence" tax write-offs. Taxpayers will then pay for the electricity produced in our plants a second time at 20 cents a KWH - about double the current rate. Finally, taxpayers will stand liable for any adverse consequences that sloppy construction brings with it. Great GOD A'mighty! The 80 plants at $30 b. each will amount to a $2.4 TRILLION royal screwing of the American public. Perhaps the single BIGGEST scam in the history of GOD and MAN?

J/O, that [the nuclear power muck-up] would make me mad enough to take up arms! I'm telling you Mr X11, if you LOVE life you better learn to LOVE windmills. It's the only safe way to go.

Post Script.
Three Mile Island. 1979. Near Harrisburg, PA. 2 reactors at one plant. TM2 failed. It was within 30 minutes of a Chernobyl type meltdown. 1986. For comparison, Chernobyl has cost the Ukraine 30,000 square miles of land no longer usable due to radioactive fallout. Should that have happened in Pennsylvania and Maryland, the loss of that land would have had a value of $15,000 per acre. That is 19 million acres. 19 X 10 to the 6th multiplied by 15 X 10 to the 3rd, is 285 X 10 to the 9th. That’s $285 BILLION. See link below.

By law, the Nuclear Power Industry must maintain a liability insurance policy in the amount of $750,000,000.00. To ordinary working stiffs, that sounds like a lot. To worst case scenario types like me, it is like peeing into a hurricane! Absolutely worthless. Nothing. Totally irresponsible. So who catches those BIG hits? Yup, the American taxpayers. We are BACKUP for every muck up you ever heard of. We threw $40 b. into NYC. By the time its over we will have another $40 b. "tossed" into New Orleans. ALL taxpayer's money. Every bandit in the world flocks to those sites. To add insult to injury, Bush43 "excused" the NYC insurance companies from any claims payout and then gave taxpayers a final kick in the ***, he let the insurers keep their unearned premiums! Sweet Jesus! Vote GOP! I hope you can see the nuclear power industry risks are so large that the TAXPAYERS have a RIGHT to be present at the START, not just at the END. en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 4/15/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 09:14 AM
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gee Don I hate to disagree with you but it seems that the U.S. education started to go to pot in the 60's right after they took prayer out of school and sent mom out to work.

As far as dumbing down the schools I think we can lay a lot of blame on affirmative action type of suites. Yes all children deserve a good free public education. But not at the expense of the brighter children.

No we aren't loosing our brightest people we just aren't educating them to the standards that the world has set before us.

respectfully

reluctantpawn

p.s. I really did not mean to open another can of worms here, but to blame our lack of education on religious zealotry is ludicrous.



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by reluctantpawn
 


gee Don I hate to disagree with you but it seems that the U.S. education started to go to pot in the 60's right after they took prayer out of school . .


Prayer in PUBLIC schools? Curiously, when I went to school a long time ago, we not only had a morning prayer, but we had a daily bible reading. In deference to our Jewish friends, we read only from the OT when there were Jewish children in class.

But alas, it did not work! Thievery, murder and mayhem continued unabated. Whether we read the bible or not we went to war. No matter how strenuously we prayed, 1000s of children died every day from starvation while we tossed out tons of food! Hey, I’d bet there is no one listening to our prayers? Huh?


“ . . and sent mom out to work.


A popular excuse but correlation does not equal causation.


As far as dumbing down the schools I think we can lay a lot of blame on affirmative action type of [law?] suits.


You’ve jumped over me there, Mr R/P. Unless you mean EQUAL educational opportunity for all GOD’s chilluns. If too many of the public refuse to pay the taxes required for good schools and good teachers, then you will surely get education dumbing down. Like in America in 2008.


Yes all children deserve a good free public education.


Is that a rhetorical statement?


But not at the expense of the brighter children.


That’s a non sequitur.


p.s. I really did not mean to open another can of worms here, but to blame our lack of education on religious zealotry is ludicrous.


I would like to say I had mis-spoke but I cannot do that. I know whereof I speak. To be sure, they - the religious zealots - are not wanting to be readily identifiable but they have learned how to do things on the QT. You can believe it or not. It’s happening every day.



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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We're about to see the Religious Right go out of power here in the United States. As the Republicans become a smaller minority in Congress, the GOP's hard right membership will lose much of their taste for politics.

In light of this, it would seem to me that our schools become become even more secular than they are now.

Anyone got a thought on that?



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 11:36 AM
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O.K. Lets see. I did not say the elimination of prayer was a root cause. I said that it happened around that time.

Yes all God's children deserve a free equal education. If equal it means that a child is not held back or allowed to pursue a higher learning base from their contemporaries. All people are created equal. It is what we choose to do with ourselves that sets us apart.

Here in your home state children are now taught how to take a test. They are not taught basic fundamentals. Exceptional children are left to languish while others are spoonfed just to keep them in school.

An example is close to home for me. I have a gifted child in public education. They attend a school that is magnet based. There is no homework because the other children not in the same program will not turn in assignments. There is constant complaint at home about the lack of discipline and disrespect from the other students.

Because of potential uproar from parents, teachers are left with little power in the form of discipline. They are not allowed to hold back a student that cannot or will not keep up with the curriculum. This in turn keeps the other students from achieving their educational potential.

It was even brought to my attention from a teachers aide that some students are being coached how to fail a reading aptitude test to gain a disability check from the state.

Why does this happen? Where are the social mores that we where brought up with. Don, you and I disagree but we are not at each others throats because of it. Why are we different? We can agree to disagree and even believe it is our right to do so. Anymore in America you take your life into your own hands for a simple disagreement.

I believe that when mom went to work, little Johnny was left to be raised by the television and or the state. Home life became hectic. There was no time spent on Johnny for personal guidance and discipline. Then when the schools try to step in they are stepping on the parents rights to raise their children.

Now we are no longer allowed to discipline the child since the schools can no longer even say what may be right or wrong. There are no rules. The lawsuits follow because the parents no longer have time to spend with their children, and feel guilty or are just not educated enough to understand that the schools really would like to just teach basics.

It has become socially unacceptable to say that a child is slower than another child and may need help. The state now cannot fail said student, so what does the state do? They slow down the curriculum to the lowest common denominator.
We spend more money on our free[?] education system than anywhere else in the world but we simple cannot compete with the rest of the world. Our children have lost there drive and would rather be given a free ride than a free education.

I certainly do not have the right answers and believe that we may have gone over the cliff.

As to the power of the religous right I too feel that it has lost much of its power. We cannot allow religion to run amok. There are too many variables. It is one thing to say that something is wrong in your opinion. It is something else to allow hatred to rule over you in the name of religion. On the other hand one should not say you are a hatemonger because you disagree with a persons choices or lifestyle.

respectfully

reluctantpawn



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by reluctantpawn
 


(1) I did not say the elimination of prayer was a root cause. I said that it happened around that time. Yes all God's children deserve a free equal education. I believe that when mom went to work, little Johnny was left to be raised by the television and or the state.

(2) We spend more money on our free [?] education system than anywhere else in the world but we simple cannot compete with the rest of the world.

(3) We cannot allow religion to run amok. There are too many variables. It is one thing to say that something is wrong in your opinion. On the other hand one should not say you are a hatemonger because you disagree with a persons choices or lifestyle. respectfully reluctantpawn


1) I find myself about 99.44% in agreement with what you say, R/P. My mother went to work outside the house in 1951. I was 17 and my sister was 15. I was an 11th grader, she a 10th grader. She was smarter or more diligent that I. She took over fixing the evening meal for my father and me. I was assigned the clean up chores. I regard us - my sister and me - as very fortunate our mother was able to stay at home until then.

Even by 1951 many women were compelled to work outside the home. But that was almost entirely due to wanting a BETTER life. The first item my mother bought was a new top loading washer to replace her old Speed Queen tub type with attached wringers. It used the old No. 1 and No. 2 wash tubs on a wooden rack to rinse the clothes. We had a hand operated washboard for hard to clean items. I don’t mean to bore you. But at some level women worked outside the home for BETTER things, unfortunately, many were forced to work outside the home for necessities of life.

As for prayer.
Prayer is best done in a closet said St. Paul. But in a closet or out, prayer is private. The ‘prayer case’ arose in New York. The State Board of Regents - ruling body of public schools in NY - had a prepared prayer for the teacher to begin each school day. The Supreme Court said the 1st Amendment meant to keep the state out of religion. State prepared prayers are a no-no. Out goes school prayer. (Teachers are agents of the state). That same decision suggested that spontaneous praying by anyone anywhere anytime was not prohibited by the US Con.

As for Bible reading.
In Maryland atheist then Madalyn Murray later O'Hair, objected to daily Bible reading in her son’s public school. Maryland had prepared a schedule which would expose a student to a cover to cover reading of the KJV of the Holy Bible in 12 years, by reading a pre-selected part each day. Again, the SC said it is not the business of the state to prescribe religious training or provide religious education. Out goes bible reading.

The Pledge of Allegiance
was written in 1892 by a Baptist minister, Francis Bellamy. His original Pledge read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." Many states enacted laws making recitation of the pledge a requirement. A 1940 case upheld that view. But in 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment. A ‘free speech’ case, and neither an ‘establishment clause’ nor a ‘free exercise’ clause case.

And there it stood until 1951 when the Knights of Columbus began to work for altering the Pledge. The Republicans won Congress in 1952. Holding the House by 221 votes, just 3 more than the 218 required for a majority. The Senate was split evenly, 48 to 48 but VP Nixon cast the deciding vote so the GOP organized the Senate. Congress was very closely divided.

The Republicans in part in response to help from Southern Baptist preachers who had endorsed Eisenhower from their pulpits against Stevenson - a divorced man - began the break-up of the Dems so-called ‘Solid South’ in national politics. In 1952, the GOP carried Texas, Florida, Virginia and Tennessee. The Dem’s hold on the South was broken! One of the rewards was the Pledge.

The new 1954 Republican “authorized” pledge is: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation, under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." Which I assert is an embarrassment to GOD for America is anything but UNDER GOD.

2) I’m not sure we spend more money than any other country per capita or based on wealth. Maybe yes, in total dollars, but after all, America is the THIRD most populated country in the world, so that is not necessarily an indicator of quality. Consider that neither China No. 2, nor India No. 2, have much in the way of public education. We do spend a lot and it makes you wonder if we could do a better job ON LESS! I doubt it. “Better” is very subjective so would you want my “BETTER” or your “BETTER?”

3) We agree. Mostly. I’ve known a few people who if they could not say something good about a person, refused to say anything at all. I think opinions of gender preference fall into that category.



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