The Radicalization of America

Question for Xpert11: What is the economic situation in New Zealand?

reply to post by xpert11

IMO there is no 100% fool proof method of preventing a home grown insurgency. But if you . . [enact] workable laws and effective pre emptive law enforcement you will either nip the problem in the bud or ensure that the enemy and there supporters are isolated from the main stream population.

The operative words are “ . . effective pre emptive law enforcement you will either nip the problem in the bud . . “ which to me are as bad as any words I could hear people who want to live in a democratic state utter. These are words of resignation and futility when the people realize they have no leaders adequate to the task ahead and deserving to be followed. To paraphrase Isiah, "A people without leaders with vision will perish."

Shortly after the Nine Eleven Event, the public willingly submitted to what amounted to a re-write of the Alien and Sedition Laws of early America. I have read both and I can tell you some of the Patriot Act includes language lifted directly out of the Alien and Sedition Laws. For a while I wrote to my fellow Americans to SHOW SOME COURAGE. Don’t change our way of life because of some guy 10,000 miles away.

But alas, we had hokum leadership best know for shoot first Texas style justice. After watching John Wayne JUNIOR at work, and the huge success he was enjoying as he CO-OPTED the tragedy to his political advantage, I knew it was useless. I’m sure without knowing that his father, Bush the Elder, telephoned Bush Jr well before dark on September 11 and said “Son, Obama bin Laden has just reelected you to a second term!” The elder Bush went on, “All you have to do is act your natural stubborn and thoughtless self and you will have it made!” And Papa Bush was right. 53,000,000 Americans just LOVED him in 2004!

Who said Democracy Is Safe? There are risks to being free. But there are few people who recognized what we were doing to ourselves in the LAST quarter of 2001. It will take a very long time to UNDO this “destroy the village to save the village” mentality that is the product of midget minds.

God Bless America. Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.

[edit on 3/19/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Question for Xpert11: What is the economic situation in New Zealand?

NZ has pretty much come to the end of a good of a good run with unemployment sitting at 3.4%. The housing market has cooled a bit and the draught is effecting farmers the backbone of our economy. The jetty wrold markets are of course effecting us as well.

The Reserve Bank has warned of the perfect storm in economic terms and Cullen has said that we could be headed for a " technical recession. " I spilt the difference I think we are in for some rough but manageable times.

While I am not a great fan of Labour I respect Cullen for being fiscal responseible .

Footnote Michael Cullen is the current New Zealand Minister of Finance.

Don we need to make the current law workable other wise there is no point having them . Look I'm not calling for warrant less wire tapping just that anybody or group who is a threat to National Secuirty be prosecuted. This is much more desirable then having the NZSAS deal with a domestic terrorism incident .

reply to post by xpert11

NZ has pretty much come to the end of a good of a good run with unemployment sitting at 3.4%. The housing market has cooled a bit and the draught is effecting farmers the backbone of our economy. The jetty world markets are of course effecting us as well.

Words to know: “ . jetty world markets . ” and what may I ask are “JETTY?”

Does NZ have an undocumented worker problem? I expect it is more difficult to patrol (secure) a ocean border than a land border. I have read that some of the South Seas island countries are very poor and at the same time having population explosions.

The Reserve Bank has warned of the perfect storm in economic terms and Cullen has said that we could be headed for a "technical recession. " I spilt the difference I think we are in for some rough but manageable times.

Well, you know what they say up here? It’s a Recession when your neighbor loses his job, but it’s a Depression when you lose yours. Is your Reserve Bank much like ours? A quasi-private or quasi-public institution which controls the money supply without political interference. Supposedly.

Don we need to make the current law workable other wise there is no point having them . Look I'm not calling for warrant less wire tapping just that anybody or group who is a threat to National Security be prosecuted. This is much more desirable then having the NZSAS deal with a domestic terrorism incident.

I was old enough to know what was happening during the McCarthy era. I was not born when America suffered the RED Scare in 1918-1922. We sent 14,000 soldiers to the new Soviet Union along with a like number of Brits and about half that number Japanese, to UNDO the October Revolution of Lenin. We supported the old discredited capitalists called White Russians here. The Communists were called Red Russians. Like our poor choice made in the 1950s in Vietnam, we picked the losers. You hardly ever read about that military intervention in another country’s internal affairs. Winston Churchill was the moving force behind that.

There has been much more harm to our country caused by super patriots allegedly “defending” us from “foreign enemies” that any of our foreign enemies ever causes, IMO.

The spelling is probably wrong but what I was getting it that the markets are nervous because of the flow on effects that come with a global economy.
NZ avoids boat people due to our geographical position. Sure we have over stayers and people that work here illegally. Usually it is the likes of an athlete who has failed to go home after a sporting event and tourists working illegally or failing to go home .

However it nothing like on the scale of what the illegal alien problem is in the US. If you waved a magic wand and removed all the people who were living here illegally it is doubtful that it would have much of an impact on my life. Bio Secuirty is more of a concern then illegal aliens as they are referred to in the US.

We don't need a return to McCarthyism what we do need is workable legislation and the SIS and law enforcement to perform there duty's as they are do now. While the threat from organisations that are foreign based cant be ruled out it is more likely that the main danger is from a small bunch of nutty separatists in the North Island.

reply to post by xpert11

The spelling is probably wrong but what I was getting it that the markets are nervous because of the flow on effects that come with a global economy.

Up here, “jetty” is a purpose-built arm-like extension of the land around a harbor, to deflect waves and tides. Also, it can be a small pier or dock. Looking back it is clear we began globalization with Marco Polo, Prince Henry and Christopher Columbus. It is inevitable. It is irresistible.

But being unstoppable does not mean you cannot take thoughtful counter measures. What I fault our leaders about is the utter failure to develop alternative industries and ways to employ the 40 million workers displaced since 1975. (3 million under Bush43). MBAs instead of helping us, learned how to screw us better. The “high school” only blue collar workers of the MIDDLE era in America - War 2 being the EARLY era and Reaganism being the LATER era - have been emasculated and when they die off, will be NO more. That was a unique social phenomenon that will not repeat in our lifetimes. The grandest achievement of the New Deal? Perhaps to never happen again. R.I.P.

NZ avoids boat people due to our geographical position. Sure we have over stayers and people that work here illegally. However it nothing like on the scale of what the illegal alien problem is in the US. If you waved a magic wand and removed all the people who were living here illegally it is doubtful that it would have much of an impact on my life. Bio Security is more of a concern then illegal aliens as they are referred to in the US.

By its nature, undocumented workers tend to stay “out of sight” and want to keep it that way. I have heard of instances where landlords would rent an apartment to a South of the Rio Grande family, then get complaints that there are too many people living there. In some instances, there were THREE families living in shifts. If they would pay 3 rents, landlords would not care so much, but everything wears out faster with more people.

We do have occupancy laws but like most laws in America, there are not enough officers to give genuine enforcement. Reagan Revolution. Yes, I do blame him. He was the one who said “Government is the problem, not the solution.” He began the dismantling process of the government. And let me not forget to add Newt Gingrich as his MAJOR helper. But I digress.

We don't need a return to McCarthyism what we do need is workable legislation and the SIS and law enforcement to perform there duty's as they are do now. While the threat from organizations that are foreign based cant be ruled out it is more likely that the main danger is from a small bunch of nutty separatists in the North Island.

I cannot avoid recalling the Clinton Administration's response to the FIRST WTC bomb attack in 1993. The Blind Sheikh broke the law. The FBI tracked him down, arrested him, brought him to trial, convicted him and he is now serving time in prison. See Note 1. If we had treated the Nine Eleven Event as an illegal criminal conspiracy and handled it the same way, we might be very far ahead of where we are today in this world.

But alas, we did not and we are where we are. Quicksand here, a quagmire there. As J/O often reminds, he fears the next administration will NOT be quick to suspend, modify or repeal those draconian LAWS mislabeled as the Patriot Act. Say Hello Josef Goebbels. And all the more, can you imagine the ILLEGAL practices that now pass with a supervisor's wink? Like Bush43 himself and torture at Abu Ghraib prison and G-Bay. You know that order came straight out of the Oval Office. The Tripartite Dictatorship. Bush43, VP Cheney and Herr Rumsfeld. The perfect storm. 3 men who KNOW it all. 3 men who DO NOT take kindly to dissenters. See Note 2. I am afraid we have moved very far into a McCarthy-ite style of government under the Texas playboy Bush43. Also known to his friends as "Dumbya."


Note 1. Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman (born May 3, 1938) is a blind Egyptian Muslim leader who is currently serving a life sentence at the Butner Medical Center which is part of the Butner Federal Correctional Institution in Butner, North Carolina, United States. Formerly a resident of New York City, Abdel-Rahman and nine others were convicted of "seditious conspiracy,"* which requires only that a crime be planned, not that it necessarily be attempted. His prosecution grew out of investigations of the World Trade Center 1993 bombings.
en.wikipedia.org...

Personal aside. *Seditious conspiracy. Any person who loves civil liberty ought to cringe when he hears those words. Sedition means speaking badly of the sitting government. Conspiracy means 2 or more people engaging in a common and unlawful activity. You should know that had I been on that jury, there would NOT have been a conviction of anyone for "seditious conspiracy" which I do not accept as a crime. It is pure and simple, a THOUGHT crime. Having bad thoughts. I would have HUNG that jury. That is one of those 1920s Red Scare laws left over by the way.

Note 2. Admiral William Joseph Fallon, USN (born December 30, 1944), served as Commander of the U.S. Central Command from March 2007 to March 2008. On March 11, 2008, he announced his resignation from CENTCOM and retirement from active duty, citing administrative complications caused in part by an article in Esquire Magazine, which described him as the only thing standing between the Bush Administration and war with Iran.
en.wikipedia.org...

Q. Does anyone have any idea how many military and naval O9s and O10s have left the service EARLY since the First Designated President took office?

[edit on 3/20/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by donwhite
Q. Does anyone have any idea how many military and naval O9s and O10s have left the service EARLY since the First Designated President took office?

Nobody is talking about "stop loss" any more. It's still happening, but its not being talked about. I would imagine that every person they prevent from leaving military service becomes radicalized.

As the economy goes bad, some of those radical will be tempted to action. Some will write letters, essays, or books. Others will entertain more agressive notions.

A jetty is the same thing here. The correct spelling is gitty.
We have a shortage of state housing but it isnt related to people who are in the country illegally . Of course people who are in the country illegally wont want to be in public view unless they are a tourist who is working illegally. Whole sectors of the NZ econmy do not depend upon illegal Aliens . If I had to guess were you would most likely find illegal workers I would say on Vineyards and other seasonal work .

NZ faces differnt border security challenges such as preventing fishing boats from operating illegally in our waters. Smuggling , Bio Security are more likely to be threats posed to NZ . An out break of Mad Cow disease would devastate the NZ economy and would bring about the closest thing to depression era conditions.

reply to post by xpert11

We have a shortage of state housing but it isn’t related to people who are in the country illegally. If I had to guess were you would most likely find illegal workers I would say on Vineyards and other seasonal work. Smuggling, Bio Security are more likely to be threats posed to NZ. An out break of Mad Cow disease would devastate the NZ economy and would bring about the closest thing to depression era conditions.

1) I’d guess that about 5% of the American population lives in one kind or another of subsidized housing. That number ought to be doubled or tripled. But we have NEVER funded a welfare program 100%. That way we can always point to the programs as FAILURES and put blame on the victims. Shucks, the stats up here say 25% of the HOMELESS people in America are VETERANS. The US motto ought to be changed from 'In God We Trust' to “USE YOU, THEN LOSE YOU.” But we play like we LOVE our veterans. That makes us feel good. Support the troops. Keep them in our prayers. Etc.

2) Well, that was the way it started here. We were not capable (or willing) to figure how to get cheap farm labor all summer long, but how to sustain those blokes during the winter always eluded us. Without saying it out loud we still follow the mantra of Captain John Smith, Jamestown, 1609, “If you do not work, you do not eat.” GOD, how we do LOVE money! Hey, We are STILL the richest country of the planet!

3) I’m curious. What do smugglers mostly bring into the country? Cigarettes? Old War 2 relics? “Hot” electronics? I find it hard to believe that NZ-landers would support smuggling as an industry.

4) Bio security? After a few tv shows up here, I’ve learned that making the deadly form of Anthrax is not easy and is very dangerous to the people doing the mixing. Then, distribution in any significant way is nearly impossible. It’s about the equivalent of a letter bomb. Deadly to its recipient but not to anyone else. Same with Sarin. And etc. Chemical warfare is big business and not for tinkering in the kitchen.

5) We keep jousting with Canada over MCD. Bovine spongiform encephalopathy. Although we cannot find Osama bin Laden, we can tell you the stall in which any cow was born. It is deadly to cattle and easily transmitted from infected cows. It scares me. In the old days, we had a similar catastrophic cattle disease called hoof and mouth disease. When discovered on a ranch, all the cattle had to be killed. I’ve seen pictures of a half dozen bulldozers digging great holes into which just shot cows were pushed. It ruined many a farmer or rancher. MCD in humans is known as a new variant of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and is often fatal.

[edit on 3/21/2008 by donwhite]

to stay on topic, I have a new question for Xpert11. I've already demonstrated how Americans will radicalize in a down-turned economy. Would we see the same sort of behavior in New Zealand if there was a world-wide depression?

reply to post by Justin Oldham


Because I’d expect the Dems to be PRO active to help the public withstand the hardships brought on by a major economic decline - a depression - and because it looks to me as if the Dems will win on November 4, then I don’t see any strong motivation for further RADICALIZATION of the US on the same order as we underwent in the 1960s. We are not sustaining the level of KIA in Iraq that will arouse the public ire or disfavor. PLUS the men and women dying there are after all volunteers and not draftees in a draft gone bad.

OTOH IF we had a complete reversal of national politics, with the GOP regaining control of the House - which is doubtful, we'd see a look backwards. The Senate - split 51 - 49 now - so it remains a possibility the GOP could regain the senate. What remains the big UNKNOWN right now is what role if any RACISM will play in the election. OTOH should the Republicans sweep the election, they could be expected to enact policies that would look like a do-over of the Coolidge Hoover era.

Today's veterans, like War 1 veterans promised a bonus for service in France, marching on W-DC for help would be likely to face a re-run of the Hoover MacArthur tear gas, fixed bayonets and burned down tents in 1932 as they actually ran out of town! And Republicans do KNOW how to deal with dissenters. See Note 1. Nixon. Bush43.

Then you might well see radicalization of the worst kind.


Note 1. MacArthur was a 4 star general and Army Chief of Staff who led the operation himself. That itself was never heard of before! 4 stars don’t do front line duty! Obviously, MacArthur already saw himself as presidential material and walking over WW1 veterans was not above his ambition. Eisenhower was a Major who counseled MacArthur against the use of BLUNT FORCE. Patton, a Lt. Col. in the Cavalry lead the sabers drawn charge on horseback against his fellow WW1 veterans. Patton was always more comfortable with wealthy industrialists than with the man on the street soldier types.

The whole Army operation was probably illegal. Herbert Hoover was not in charge of W-DC. The District of Columbia was governed by a commission subservient to Congress and not to the Executive Branch. The W-Dc city fathers resisted the Hoover Administration’s ill treatment of the veterans. The W-DC Chief of Police protested the use of soldiers in full battle dress. It Was Terrible! ON the good side, it sealed the election of FDR.

[edit on 3/21/2008 by donwhite]

Note I am not making predictions instead I am just floating ideas for discussion.

Should the government fail to rework anti terrorism laws and law enforcement fail to nip any problems in the bud and the right economic conditions prevail it may be possible.


Bear with me .
Here is my take no one is going to take up arms due to a lack political representation. Now say the depression goes for 12 years .
I am sure that there would social unrest the question is would it lead to a wider insurgency ?

If successive governments failed horrible to deal with the situation at hand it is possible that iwi (iwi is Maori term for tribe or something like that ) in the North Island start printing there own currency and start charging for the use of there airspace and the use of the Lakes. Of course this all heads the direction of areas in the North Island gaining sovereignty.

In order to avoid having the NZ government crack down on these activity's tribal leaders could hop into bed with those who are willing to arms up against the rest of us.

Background

Our political system could allow for comprise to avoid this from happening or it could backfire with elected leaders caught between the law and there people.

Worst case scenario would a small scale mix of Northern Ireland and the Israel - Palestine situation . I rate the chances of this happening as possible but unlikely because the following would have to happen .

1. Economic depression .
   
2. Six to nine years of the government failing to improve the situation.
   
3. The Maori population and its political views would have to be ignored completely .
   
4. People who are involved with social rest would have to commit treason .
   

I do think that we would see Resource consent and laws relating to fishing quotes ignored in the time of economic depression . In other words tribal leaders would put job creation and the interests of there people ahead of NZ law.

However that is still a long way from what I described above . Not even the most one eyed Canterburian would take up arms against his or her country and/or demand sovereignty. Given that the political right lacks coalition partners and that the Maori Party could be one of the party's that is a deal breaker it seems unlikely that the segment of the population they represent would be ignored .

Footnotes.
In terms of a constitution NZ doesn't have a single or put another way a formal document like the US does. Rather we have MMP , our version of the Bill of Rights and The Treaty of Waitangi . Settlements with Maori are made under the Treaty of Waitangi. Since the introduction of MMP neither of the two major party's have been able to govern alone.

Onto other matters.
By Bio security I am referring to the likes preventing mad cow disease from entering the country . Also you need to prevent deliberate or accidental introduction of seeds from other country's. Wildlife smuggling is people bringing animals in or out of the country illegally . Later on if they survive they are sold as pets .

The last thing we need is another introduced species . Enough damage has been done by those already . Of course NZ still contends with the likes of illegal drug smuggling e.t.c.



Elections are held every three years . Canterbury is a South Island province . Christchurch is located in Canterbury. Canterbury colours are Red and Black.

reply to post by xpert11

Should the government fail to rework anti terrorism laws and law enforcement fail to nip any problems in the bud and the right economic conditions prevail it may be possible. Here is my take no one is going to take up arms due to a lack political representation. Now say the depression goes for 12 years. I am sure that there would social unrest the question is would it lead to a wider insurgency?

We had a taste of serious revolt up here in the 1960s. Hard feelings had been smoldering in Black America since who knows when? I have recently learned the Old South began a 100 years reign of white terrorism by 1865-1866. Formerly we gave great credit to Robert E. Lee for not inspiring a guerilla resistance as Jefferson Davis had counseled. Research has shown that was a false image.

The Confederate states were not then and have not yet been reconstructed. I recently read a book on “Sundown Towns” in America. Those were the infamous towns that posted signs warning blacks not to be found inside the town after dark. Some towns rang bells, others blew whistles at 6 PM. The author documented 3,000 such towns and found to his surprise, that 90% were located OUTSIDE the 11 states of the Confederacy.

Well, this digression is getting over-long. Suffice it to say that the same mentality that caused sundown towns in the 19th century has given us gated communities in the post 1980 era in America. I will conclude this part of my reply by saying I am convinced America cannot have a viable democracy until we address this issue or race. And I’m presuming that once we address it, we will reach the RIGHT decision which is not the same as ON the RIGHT in American politics. Just the opposite in fact. The American RIGHT is WRONG!

Can we expect the radicalization that stems from ecnomic factors to meet or excede the troubles of the 1960's? In a nut shell, my own answer is "yes."

reply to post by Justin Oldham


To have an effective domestic insurgency you must have the tacit support of the general population. Or a large enough part of it to provide you with cover and places to store your materials of war. This is essential. Or at least, the people must HATE the officials more than they HATE you.

The term Watts Riots refers to a large-scale riot which lasted six days in the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles, California, in August 1965. There had previously been a build up of racial tension in the area. On May 7, 1965, two LA (Caucasian) cops pulled over Leonard Deedwyler, an African American man rushing his pregnant wife to the hospital.

The younger cop approached the car and stuck the barrel of his gun in the window, moments later Deedwyler fell sideways in his seat, DEAD. The coroner’s jury verdict cleared the cop of all accusations, claiming the car had lurched suddenly.

The Simi Valley 1992 acquittal of 3 LA police and the hung jury on the 4th, of excessive force used on Rodney King, triggered the massive 4-day Los Angeles riots of 1992, one of the most intense civil disturbances in U.S. history. By the time the police, US Army, Marines and National Guard restored order, there was nearly $1 billion in damage and 53 deaths; 2,383 injuries; more than 7000 fire responses; and 3,100 businesses damaged.

Smaller riots occurred in other US cities such as Las Vegas and Atlanta. On May 1, 1992, the third day of the LA riots, King appeared in public before television news cameras to appeal for calm . . en.wikipedia.org...

There were many riots across America in the 1960s. Detroit was notable. Memphis after Dr. King’s murder. Houston. New Orleans. And even my own little town of Louisville had a small riot. Almost always it was blacks rampaging in their own neighborhoods. Some cynical commentators agreed the blacks KNEW they could get away with anything - looters - as long as they were destroying their own part of town, but if they had threatened to move into up scale WHITE neighborhoods, you would have seen what a machine gun was made for.

But America has had an uncounted number of race riots. After the Civil War, lawlessness was rampant especially in the Old South but not limited to there. Don’t forget 4,000+ blacks were lynched over the years and in a few instances, the lynching was advertised in the local paper for all to come and see.

Around the turn of the last century, many white people in the United States were eager to draw a thick, bold line separating the races. Sometimes they drew the line in blood. The Tuskegee Institute recorded nearly 5,000 lynchings of black people between 1880 and 1930. Historians say there were thousands more. Most lynchings happened in Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama - in the Deep South. So it was a shock when the 1930 headline, "Duluth Mob Lynches Three Negroes . . " June 15 is the anniversary of the lynching.
news.minnesota.publicradio.org/projects/2001/06/lynching/

This is partly why I say any real and potentially successful RADICAL resistance to the W-DC “inside the beltway mentality” will come from groups that have a common background of exclusion, humiliation and depravation. Hmm? Say Hello Osama bin Laden.

A collection of lynching photos made into post cards is found in a new book, “Without Sanctuary: Lynching Photography in America” offered at Barnes and Noble. Synopsis: The Tuskegee Institute records the lynching of 4,742 blacks between 1882 and 1968. This is probably a small percentage of these murders, which were seldom reported . . These images are some of photography's most brutal, surviving to this day so that we may now look back upon the carnage and perhaps know our history and ourselves better. The almost one hundred images reproduced here are a testament to the camera's ability to make us remember what we often choose to forget. search.barnesandnoble.com...

Those postcards were ALL bought by WHITE people. Of that you can be sure. To be mailed with “Wish You Were Here” notes scribbled on the reverse. Mailed to other white people. That is why I have often warned earlier that Obama could not be elected in America in 2008. After seeing the crowds he is arousing to action, I’m not so sure now but that this is the YEAR of the GREAT reversal. Old folks, get out of the way! Don’t trust anyone born before 1968!

BLACK ATTITUDES AND THE 1960s BLACK RIOTS:
Nearly all aggregate-level studies of political violence use objective indicators to assess an aggrieved group's dissatisfactions and deprivations . . Moreover, even if such correlations do exist, detractors contend there is no inherent relation between felt grievances and participation in - or support of - collective violent protest. The 1968 Kerner Commission's 15-Cities Study provides a unique set of data to test both of these objections.
www.blackwell-synergy.com...

I remember the Kerner Commission. We nave never implemented its recommendations. And I suppose we never will. I am reminded of the parable - maybe it was not a parable - by Jesus: “ . . Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matthew 19:24.

I hope never to see a domestic insurgency, but as I said in a recent podcst, all the signs point to a rough decade. It's hard to be civil when your money is worthless, and your kids are hungry...and...your out of a job. I don't think we will weather this depression with as much dignity as we survived the last one.

Now bear in mind that I am not an economics expert.

Is the low US dollar such a bad thing ?
The consensus locally is that the high NZ dollar is hurting our exporters . The high NZ dollar may also be shielding us from rising fuel costs. Of course the cost of petrol is going up but I guess it could hit $2 quicker then it will.
So it is possible that the low US dollar could be used to give exporters an advantage in the market place. IMO the US economy needs to become more export driven because a healthy economy is necessary for a strong domestic market.

Free Trade is the avenue available to US exporters it is up to them to create products that meet demands of overseas markets .

[edit on 27-3-2008 by xpert11]

reply to post by xpert11

Is the low US dollar such a bad thing? The consensus locally is that the high NZ dollar is hurting our exporters. The high NZ dollar may also be shielding us from rising fuel costs. Of course the cost of petrol is going up but I guess it could hit $2 quicker then it will.

Is the low dollar a bad thing? Maybe not, but it does hurt when it is declining. When - and if - it stablizes, we will adjust to the new paradigm. We will have to pay more for things bought abroad. Wal-Mart will advertise HIGHER prices and not LOWER prices.

Yes, a “high” value for your currency means goods and services you make must bring higher prices COMPARED to other currencies in the world market. In the financial world ALL THINGS ARE RELATIVE. 10 years ago it was BARGAIN time when Americans traveled outside the country. Today it is DOUBLE the cost of goods bought with US dollars. And a hitherto unknown experience for Americans visiting foreign lands when the proffered dollar is refused. Humbling. Or humiliating!

Inside the country OTOH things are much the same, whether the dollar rising or falling. Except as I mentioned, for the cost of goods bought outside the country. Which is 70% of our 22 mbd - million barrels per day - crude oil consumption. We have made ZERO effort to reduce our rate of consumption. Talk of energy independence is PHONY!

A concern with perhaps more serious consequences is how the FOREIGN holders of LARGE blocks of American public debt will react to the falling dollar. That’s primarily China and the Persian Gulf Arab oil producers. Since Bush43 we have been selling them our debt for 4-5% per annum on our 20 and 30 year debentures. I do not know the formula but it is already calculated how much increase in interest must be had to give the same rate of return when the REAL value of your bond is reduced. If your bond is WORTH only 80% of what you paid for it, then the 4% interest is not adequate. Roughly it is now only 3.2%. IF you hold enough of the debt, you can FORCE your borrower to raise his interest rate, to say, 1.2 X 4% or 4.8%.

Because Republicans will not raise taxes and Democrats will not cut expenditures, that means the US will continue to BORROW more until we can get our priorities worked out. See Note 1. Sadly, Americans do not seem to understand that until one party gains 60 seats in the Senate to block endless debate* there is very little likiihood of meaningful changes in our current policy ragardless which party holds the majority. 41 Senate seats can block any legislation in Congress. *One more pro-slavery compromise that still be-devils America from the 1787 constitution.

Free Trade is the avenue available to US exporters it is up to them to create products that meet demands of overseas markets. So it is possible that the low US dollar could be used to give exporters an advantage in the market place. IMO the US economy needs to become more export driven because a healthy economy is necessary for a strong domestic market.

Well, my friend, we don’t MAKE anything anymore. We provide SERVICES - what I call a scam. I have long argued that only THINGS - real, material - that you can hold in your hand are TRUE wealth. We are now charging each other commissions for buying and selling paper. But shuffling papers as we do in a service economy means actually we are living on our PAST success. The total value of America is estimated to be $70-80 trillion. By shuffling around all that paper, we consume $5-$10 trillion a year, but it is coming out of so large a pile we don’t realize what is happening! But there will come a day when you cannot get rich ADVISING others how to invest their money in hedge funds. Then it will be seen to have been a HOUSE of CARDS. All along.


Note 1: Most Federal expenditures are outside the purview of Congress. Social security and Medicare being the largest. Interest on the National Debt. Other so-called entitlements like Medicaid also are difficult to control or reduce especially in adverse times. The day to day oprataion of the government itself costs more when you have less.

Further, we have seriously neglected our infrastructure as noted by the bridge falling down in St. Paul. After that event - no accident as it was preventable with normal routine maintenance - we closed TWO bridges in Duval County - Jacksonville - and more elsewhere but I have not heard any count. That is just ONE county out of 10,000 counties in America.

The Dems are in a hard spot to pare down the Defense budget. Dems cannot afford to look SOFT on war! Plus, Bush43 has used up almost ALL of our mechanized equipment in his unplanned rush to WAR. Everything - including the troops - is worn out. That’‘s about $100-$150 b. worth of equipment to be purchased over the next 4-5 years.

Republicans REFUSE to pay taxes to support this war. That is generational shifting of the cost of this war. DASTARDLY politics being played by people (the R&Fs) who WILL NOT pay the cost of their own defense! No Greatest Generation these: The Moocher Generation!

[edit on 3/28/2008 by donwhite]

I had a chance to watch the Secretary of the Treasury talk about changes that the Bush administration wants to make to the Federal Reserve. To be honest, this proposal is what I would've expected from a Democrat. Once again, Mr. Bush has set forces in motion that will grow the size of government. Those who radicalize over the next decade just got one more reason to be militant.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
I had a chance to watch the Secretary of the Treasury talk about changes that the Bush administration wants to make to the Federal Reserve. To be honest, this proposal is what I would've expected from a Democrat. Once again, Mr. Bush has set forces in motion that will grow the size of government. Those who radicalize over the next decade just got one more reason to be militant.

Next decade? Try last week. Try googling "American Resistance" "Second American Revolution" or "Second American Civil War" and see what comes up. There are many things going on right now, many of swirling all around you, which is leading to a unification of the states' Constitutional Militias as well as unification with other political groups which were previously at odds with the various states' Militias.

It's not so much that America is being radicalized, personally I am working to prevent the radicalization programs that were put in place by the current illegal administration. The erosion of our Constitution is one of the most negatively radical things that has ever happened to this country, and I, for one, took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the untied states of America (yes, that is the proper way to write this country's name....read the constitution in it's original form) against all enemies foreign and domestic and by God (& I'm not even Christian) I'll die defending those rights if needed. Those ideas are so much bigger than me, as an individual, that if I'm not willing to make a sacrifice to save them, that would be radical apathy.

The real radicals are in Washington right now planning another war, maybe even giving the go ahead for a nuclear strike on Iran as I write these words. Or perhaps they are going ahead with the nationalization of our banks (which really means the corporatiztion and private monopolization of our economy...the Federal Reserve is a private bank, not a government office))...how radical is that?