The Radicalization of America

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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OK, as you point out J/O, conscripts have their own problems. As an 18 year old I did Air Force basic training at Lake Seneca, NY. I still recall that question - what do I do if I think the order is not lawful? The instructor said, “Suppose the lieutenant says, ‘Jump into that lake!’ ” He went on, "my advice to you is this, when you report him to the captain, be sure you leave a puddle where you were standing."

More: once a year, the EM - enlisted men - were required to attend a lecture on the UCMJ - Uniform Code of Military Justice. Our lawbook. Often with our gratitude made short by the Major who did not want to give the lecture any more than we wanted to attend. For EM in the “Lower 4" grades, the units First Sergeant is the Majordomo. His word is NEXT to GOD’s.

Yes, there will be dissenters in both a conscript army and a volunteer army. But the American Armed Forces are NOT the Royal Netherlands Army either.

[edit on 2/27/2008 by donwhite]

I appreciate your optimism, but American conscripts would behave no differently than draftees in any other armies. Give it a decade, and you would never know that the U.S. Army had been all-volunteer.

Seems that more people are discovering my work now that it's been made avaialbe in electronic format. the price of oil recently closed at over one hundred dollars a barrel, and the overall economic picture for the United States has declined, as I've said it would. Again, I bring up the point thath ard times make for hard people. The extent of our future radicalization can and will be tied directly to our lack of economic prosperity.

As the Republicans lose power, we should expect to see a rise in homegrown radical Christian fundamentalism. these groups will perpetrate hate crimes, operating under the misguided assumption that they are somehow fighting for something that needs to be defended. It's ironic to me that as the Left ascends to power, the Right will descend to become some of the very terror that we've been trying to fight since 9-11.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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As an economic prognosticator J/O, you have done well. Yet, I contend that had it not have been for the Reagan Revolution neutering of government regulators - we need not have repeated this sour note. The sub-prime uninsured mortgage meltdown. Keep in mind we - the US - underwent the largest housing boom in the history of the world - let’s say post War 2, 1945 to 1968 - dates set arbitrarily - when we ADDED the GI Bill giving 16 million veterans the right to buy a house with NO money down, to the New Deal’s FHA which lowered down payments from 50% - the norm prior to 1933 - to 10% - the new amount set by the FHA. All with NO mortgage meltdown!

Even that push to home ownership by itself would not have worked BUT FOR the addition of a brand new concept - insured mortgages to guarantee to lenders payment in full. Government guarantees in turn meant standards to be complied with. Standards for pricing homes as well as standards for borrowers to qualify for loans. The wiseacres of Harvard MBA school combined with Republican traditional anti-government-ism gave us this CRASH.

There are many desirable things we cannot do for ourselves. For that purpose governments are instituted among men. Good government of course. Government that serves a desired public purpose. With career civil servants and not privatized outsourcing. I suppose every generation has to re-learn the lessons of the past. The old adage if you don’t know your history you have to repeat it. See Foot Note below.



Yes. Pres. Bush has called Islam a violent religion too many times to count. Bush has said we are in a “war of culture” and he has said we are in a “war of religions.” He is today’s equal to the 11th century's Pope Urban 2. The founding father of the Crusades. McCain has already chimed in saying he would keep America in Iraq for “100 years” if necessary. Necessary for what, pray tell?


Foot Note. There is another aspect of this mortgage meltdown I have not heard discussed. How does anyone know a “fair” price for a new house? To answer my own question, it was formerly set by the lenders. Lenders in turn had to set fiscal standards for their customers. But when you crate a climate in which PAYBACK rates may be secondary to a good SALE, and the banker is no longer serving as a steadying economic overseer of builders prices and the buyers ability to pay, you have tuned your economy over to the wolves from America’s MBA schools. The new mantra of our economic elite is how to maximize immediate profit!

What do we know about this calamity? 1) The builders and their suppliers all got paid in full. 2) The realtors who hustled the houses got their commissions paid in full. 3) The original lenders got paid in full. So who is left holding the fast emptying bag? Mostly foreign “bundle” buyers it seems. And the banks that put those messes together but had not yet unloaded them on unsuspecting buyers.

I submit that was made possible because all too many people having grown up since 1933 assumed and actually thought the US Government was regulating and enforcing standards of building and buying. But there was NO government. And now we will all suffer. And now with their mind-set, the hand-wringers in W-DC have NO idea what happened. Despite the danger of inflation, the Federal Reserve System is busy helping the HOLDERS at the expense of the many by lowering interest rates when that is contra indicted.

Sweet Jesus! Come Quick! Where oh where is the MARKET those mumbo jumbo-ers say they LOVE so much?

[edit on 3/2/2008 by donwhite]

I contend that "the market" has been meddled with by the Bush administration. They've done it on purpose. Under more ideal conditions, this bubble would have burst. As you may recall, Federal regulators allowed the dot-com bubble to burst, saying that we got what we deserved.

Gruenspan was replaced by Bernanke so that the Bush team could manipulate the economy to create an artificial bubble that happened on their watch. Mr. G. warned us agaisnt this before and after he left office. Too few of us wanted to read those bitter and unabiding tea leaves.

I think GOP planners rightly understood that a Democrat would follow two terms of a Republican. I also think they intended from the start to let their artiface unravel on the next presidency. "Didn't happen on my watch. Not my fault. Lousy Democrats."

Now, as we watch, the Bush bubble is breaking. I'm not expecting inflation for 2008 to excede 7% by year's end. Bear in mind that inflationary pressures can't be capped in anything less than 4 years. As it was in 1982, so shall it be again in 2008.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Mr J/O, it sounds like you are coming back into the fold of planning our nation's economy. That it - the national economy - is too large to ignore, and too important to leave to chance. And much too complex to leave in the hands of Congress. You cannot go anywhere with 535 heads. And I'm not counting the 5 delegates who have now been vested with earmarkring power.

Earmarks represent a Congressional (Article 1 branch) backlash at the near overwhelming power of the Executive (Article 2 branch). Instead of banning earmarks, we need to acknowledge that earmarks can serve a legitimate purpose. But we need to make earmark rules and set limits. The CBO - Congressional Budget Office - needs to add a section I'd call the "Direct Funding Oversight Branch" - DFOB - charged to make sure the earmark is not written so as to assure the Congressperson's nephew (favorite charity) is the only person who can qualify for the money. See Foot Note.


Foot Note. Ford built its first assembly plant outside Michigan in Louisville, Ky., in 1913. The plant is still there today and in use although Ford itself is no longer a certainty. The State Government wanted to assure that Ford won the contract for State Police cruisers. The specs required an engine of 460 cubic inches or larger. Chevy used the 454 engine - other GM lines used a 455 - and Chrysler used a 440 engine. Tough! It seems only Ford which employed the 460 engine was qualified to bid. That was my first lesson in the importance of being able to draw the contact specifications. You can do a lot in a very mundane part of business or governance.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by donwhite]

Actualy, I disagree on the notion of Federal economic planning. As read the Constitutio, I don't see anyting in there about economic planning of the sort that many suggest today. I do think history will judge that the Bush administration meddled in the economy in ways that were dishonest.

Sidenote: I was not for NAFTA because it deliberately rewards corporations for outsourcing. I spoke up against that than, and I still do so when I get the chance. the double-whammy of Clinton and Bush has done this country great harm. Bush has done more short term damage, and I'm willing to admit that.

The people who "go radical" will do so with a great many justifications, and this'll be one of them. Tax policy and trade regulation may be provinces of the Federal juggernaught, but it's gotten out of hand now that the beast advocates corporate policy. Any young turk who decides to go violent will know that, and it'll be easy for them to explain to their new recruits, who won't have to be college educated.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Well, J/O, in re the US Con, you’re looking FOR authority and I’m looking FOR prohibitions. It’s the glass half full half empty paradox. If we discount the 1861-1865 time frame, I’d say the US was always a NO intervention country, but after 1933, it became (of necessity) a YES intervention country. Beginning in 1981 the Republicans have insidiously worked to return the US to a NO intervention country. I use “insidiously” in its most pejorative sense, because NONE of the actions they have taken could have either passed in Congress or on an up or down vote, nor would the public have ever approved of those actions had they been aware of them. I’m thinking of the gutting of the regulatory agencies such as FDA, CPSC, and more. The Fed is an exception. It is in the hands of the BIG BOYS and they will do their own thing with it.



I attribute the sea change in world economics to the 17th Communist Party Congress in 1977. I believe it was Dung Chou Ping /sp?/ who was the Chairman and who led China’s 90 degree turn to the RIGHT. American capital was always free to travel abroad, well, since 1789 anyway. Long before Hitler GM owned Open in Germany, Vauxhall in England and Holden in Australia. Ford owned Ford of Britain, see Note 1. And Ford of Cologne Germany. RCA owned JVC - Japan Victor Corporation.

The difference is that China and most of Asia are now producing quality goods in factories in large part designed and financed by American corporations. Containerized ocean freight is bringing the goods here for less than we can truck them around the country. My point that capital has always been international but labor is obviously restricted to the birthplace (in the main) of the worker.

I’ve said a lot to say this: I do not believe we ever could stop globalization. We could have and should have softened the fall of the American workers and the blue collar middle class that was a unique phenomenon in the history of the world. That’s gone now. It will take some real brains to ever resurrect it. This is what I have in mind when I say the government must get into economic planning. Private enterprise rightly has OTHER motives and they are 180 degrees out of phase with a restored middle class. See Note 2. Or put another way, we cannot put (or leave) the fox to guard the hen house. Even if their name is Halliburton.



Q. Can you describe America in 2008 without describing fascism?


Note 1. Ford’s first assembly plant outside the US was in Trafford Park, Manchester in 1911. Ford employed 60 people making the Model T. The company was re-registered as Henry Ford & Son, Ltd.

Note 2. US Con. Preamble: “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union . . promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

US Con. Article 1, Section 8. “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States . . To coin money, regulate the value thereof . . To promote the progress of science and useful arts . . To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.”

[edit on 3/2/2008 by donwhite]

Regrettably, I cannot. I do think that Democrats and Republicans alike are guilty of our current declining state. As the GOP is crushed and scattered for the next decade, there will be no force to check or hinder the Democratic party from continuing this dark journey.

We can slow it down by voting in new guys and gals when and where possible, but I don't think we can stop it anymore. I am, however, optinmistic that we can and we will pick up the pieces when this whole thing comes crashing down.

As human beings, we must sometimes learn some lessons...the hard way.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Rio de Janeiro may be a look into the future of the US in 20 years. The “problem” in Brazil is one word - POVERTY. The extreme problem has been festering for more than 3 decades. The ultra rich of Brazil have ignored the plight of what now numbers 1,000,000 people in a neighborhood that would normally house not over 100,000. There is almost total lack of civilized infrastructure. No central sewer system. No central water system. Electricity is problematic. Telephone lines are out of order more than in service. Schools are non-existent. Teen-agers have been toting Mac10s for years and years.

The Police abandoned that neighborhood many years ago. The drug gangs gained control. Still no action by the R&Fs. The Movers and Shakers of Brazil. Now, off-duty police and firemen have seized on the opportunities in that area. They go in, kill the drug gang, and then extort money from the people they have just “liberated” from drug kingpins but who are now under an ever harsher regime of off-duty cops and firemen.



Sweet Jesus! Where are YOU when we need YOU?

[edit on 3/6/2008 by donwhite]

I don't disagree. The same poverty that helps politicians gain power will also 'enlist' a lot of radicals. Many people will feel justified in fighting what they see as a deliberate attempt to enslave them. Nothing is more scary than the radical who makes sense.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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The current brouhaha in Columbia involving its neighbors, Equador and Venezuela, is an example how the US involvement works on the ground. There is a resistance group fighting the Columbian government which is a puppet regime sponsored by the US SF/DEA/CIA combine. It is called FARC. Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia–Ejército del Pueblo, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia–People’s Army (FARC–EP)

The DEA spokesman Michael Braun said today that there were NO US personnel involved in the recent cross-border excursion. Then he added a caveat, “To my knowledge.” Maybe his conscience was troubling him?

The US Special Operations Forces along with the DEA representatives and the CIA operatives had located the headquarters of the FARC about 2 km inside Equador. Under the Bush Doctrine of Preemptive Strikes, the Columbian Army crossed the border and captured the FARC leader along with a lot of computers which the US now says show that Hugo Chavez of Venezuela is “aiding” and “supporting” the FARC.

The DEA admits cocaine production has been going up every year, and last year was a record of estimated $30-$40 b. worth of cocaine coming out of South America, primarily Columbia. Let me ask you a simple question. How long has the US been involved in Columbia supposedly to STOP the flow of cocaine into the US? The A. It started under Ronald Reagan. How long do you support a losing cause? Do you ever use your brains? Do you just keep doing the same dumb things over and over? Columbia is the No. 4 recipient of US largess, after Israel, Afghan and Pakistan.

Come Quick Sweet Jesus!

Beware how easily these troops can shift from foreign adventures to domestic enforcement! I want a DRAFT Armed Forces!

[edit on 3/10/2008 by donwhite]

I see that I'm rubbing off on you again. Just remember one thing. Conscripted troops will subjugate you easier than an all-volunteer force ever would. In the AVF, there would be dissenters who could form the core of a resistence. In a conscripted army, the political officers would make sure that there were no dissenters.

I do not miss the old Soviet Union.

Don posted: “Beware how easily these troops can shift from foreign adventures to domestic enforcement! I want a DRAFT Armed Forces!”

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Maybe you have a good observation there Mr J/O. The worst example of a AVF boo-boo was the Ohio National Guard at Kent State. You guys either can’t or won’t believe me when I tell you that during my 1949-1951 stint in the Army National Guard, we were never issued live ammo. Only senior NCOs carried the real bullets. And they would not issue ammo until given an order by an officer.

I was in Korea in 1953-1954, and lived in 8 man tents. (As an AF type we boarded only 6 men in the 8 man rated army tent). AF types did not have a issued weapon as Army infantry types would have. But in neither case, no soldier or airman is permitted to possess live ammo in his living quarters. NONE.

I’ve seen the pictures of the May 4, 1970, ONG firing on the Kent State students 100s of times but to this day I do not know when and on whose orders those Guardsmen were issued live ammo. Despite clumsy efforts on the part of both Federal and State officials to obfuscate, confuse or muddy the waters, it was obvious none of the Guardsmen were endangered by the students they shot at and hit 4 students with fatal results. Nine more students were wounded, some at great distances from the alleged provoking incident. See Note 1.

I suppose I base my wariness on the AVF mostly on my own experiences. Although I was a "volunteer" in the Air Force, let’s face it, the operating draft might have pushed me to “Join Up.” In 1952, when I enlisted, the draft was for 2 years, with service in either the Army’s Infantry or the Marine Corps based on the new to me but widely used word “exigencies” of the Service. Being an untutored American, I pronounce it as “x - i - gen - see - ‘s” with some slight emphasis on the “i.”

Back to story. If you submitted to the draft - you could “volunteer” for immediate drafting - you would be a “ground pounder” either in the Army or the USMC. But the term of service was 24 months. The Army and the MC would accept your voluntary enlistment for 3 years, and give you the choice of any open job you were qualified for. Or you could join the AF or the Navy both of which services had the reputation for high technology and “softness” of discipline. For 4 years. I opted for the AF. I could not swim then (or now).

I was patriotic. I wanted to go to war. I wanted to defend my country but not against the Red Menace. I never bought into that. Even then I was aware of the exploited "people of color" around the world by white capitalists. I was never then or now afraid of competing ideologies. Yes, I liked Castro in 1959. I like Castro in 2008 and I liked him in all the years in between. The Cubans who moved here are or were the rich and famous or lackeys of US corporations or the Mafia. Aside from their endless grumbling over losing their money, they have produced next to nothing of noteworthiness up here.

I enlisted in 1952 while the Korean War was going full force. But, I also wanted to sleep on clean sheets at night. That’s my vision of waging war. Fight like hell all day, sleep soundly at night after a refreshing shower and sit down to a hot meal. Hey, War is Hell! (Generally fewer than 10% of any armed forces get close enough to the enemy to shoot back).

So, I said a lot to say that despite being a “volunteer” I was in the same general mental state - frame of mind - as any other 18 year old subject to the draft. The AF was not the MC. We were not expected to charge a machine gun nest. I did not need to practice throwing a hand grenade. We were not expected to sleep in the mud and eat cold K rations. There was a choice and I made mine. It was, after all, still a free country.

My #1. The Air Force - my experience was from 1952 to 1964 - never engaged in propaganda. In fact, we heard very little to nothing at all from the higher ups. We were treated more like factory workers. We had a job, we had our hours, and we worked 5.5 days a week. In all my time in the AF I received ONE 3 day pass. No need, we were “off" every weekend. Unless we had “stand-by” duty. I fully recommend the AF to any young person.

For #2, it’s the Army’s Field Artillery. My Army job was sitting on my arse in the shade of a large tent, the Fire Control Center, calculating range settings for the 155 howitzers in my unit, called in by the real risk takers, the FOs. Forward observers.

Bu I still want a draft.


Note 1. On May 14, 1970, Jackson State University in Jackson, MS, was the scene of another abuse of police power! Police OUTSIDE a building at the college fired many, many shots - 110 by one count of holes - INTO a building killing 2 students in the building and wounding 12 others. Self defense the Mississippi State Police averred. You hear a lot about Kent State (white students) but you rarely hear about Jackson State (black students).

On June 12, 1963, in Jackson, MS, civil rights worker Medgar Evers was shot and killed in ambush by a Ku Klux Klan leader. At one of the 3 trials of Edgar’s assassin Mississippi’s ex-governor Ross Barnett and retired US Army Major General Edwin A. Walker - of Lee Harvey Oswald notoriety - appeared as character witnesses for Byron De La Beckwith who was convicted in 1994 by a reforming state AG. He died in prison in 2001, I'm happy to report.

On June 21, 1964, civil rights workers Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney were murdered by a mob that included Ku Klux Klan and a country deputy sheriff, near Philadelphia, MS just 98 miles from Jackson. A reign of terror was ruling over Mississippi. Racism in America? When is it NOT?

[edit on 3/14/2008 by donwhite]

I, for one, do not doubt your ammo status. I do know that it was the norm to restrict ammom, back in the day. It's a policy that I do not disagree with, under the right circumstances. It's too bad that the Bush administration doesn't see that.

[Joke mode: ON] 1851? What secret have you revealed? Do you know something about time travel that the rest of us do not?

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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If Lower 4 EM were carrying live ammo, they would find more dead bodies in the barracks than 6 men could count. It would bo a re-run of the OK Corral every night. But that is the same trait that makes them useful. They cannot spell DEATH and don't give a dam about it.

Personal anecdote. In September, 1953, I was on a troop transport ship, the Gen. W.A. Mann, sailing from San Francisco’s Presidio (Spanish for fort) outbound for Yokohama, Japan. On the 5th or 6th day at sea, I - AF types were assigned to “guard” duty - was pulling my shift - 4 hours on, 16 hours off - or watch as the Navy call it, when a fight broke out in the adjoining Army occupied compartment. 200 men stacked 4 high. Bath down the hall.

One soldier wanted the light out - it was time for lights out - and another wanted it on. One or the other grabbed his knife, slashed his “buddy” from shoulder across the chest down to the hip. The wounded man ran into the hallway - passage - where I was posted, and fell to the floor.

I blew my whistle 2 medium but strong blasts as the Navy SPs had instructed me. That was my only weapon. In about 2 minutes, 4 big and tough SPs arrived to take charge. Of course, all the Army guys were wandering around in the hall, mumbling and so on.

The SP in charge drew his .45, worked the slide on which distinctive and familiar sound the Army guys fell silent. He told them in NO uncertain terms to get back into the compartment, and into their assigned bunks, to stay there and to be quiet. Which they did and did.

The man died. Loss of blood. Could not find his dog-tags and in 1953, blood typing was not all that easy. My blood type is A minus so I could not offer any help but type O could have. Anyway, he died and his assailant spent the remainder of the voyage in the brig. Live ammo in the barracks? Not on your life.

[edit on 3/15/2008 by donwhite]

So, now that one of our largest financial institution has gone under...and been sold for peanuts...what next? Are we on our way to a Depression that will radicalize a lot of down and out people? I says, yes.

reply to post by Justin Oldham

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Bush43 is up to his old tricks and his innate loathing for the poor. He refused to extend unemployment coverage by 13 weeks and add $100 a month for 3 months to food stamps recipients. BOTH of which moves would have brought immediate cash into the retail market and HELPED people in real need.

Bush43 has already permitted Bernacke to plow $200 b. into the banks and mortgage lenders coffers. Another bonanza was announced today when the overnight rate was dropped by 75 points to 2.25% although Bernacke bemoaned the rise in inflation. Heck says Bush43, inflation don't affect me! Or my other R&F friends. #$@!*? B43 says about the POOR.

Inflation is a TAX on the poor.

[edit on 3/18/2008 by donwhite]

I think that a global perspective is needed .

Locally the Reserve Bank has warned that we could be headed for the "Perfect Storm " in economic terms. The leaders of the two major political party's are naturally playing things down in an election. My own view is that the Reserve Bank is just covering its ass in case the worst happens but things will be worse then what politicians make out they will be .

My hope would be that after the election changes to NZ anti terrorism laws will be made to make them workable and prevent an isolated group of people from string up a hornets nest. IMO there is no 100% fool proof method of preventing a home grown insurgency. But if you ensure that everyone has a fair shot at political representation , workable laws and effective pre emptive law enforcement you will either nip the problem in the bud or ensure that the enemy and there supporters are isolated from the main stream population.

On the flip side

The Maori Party supported the suspects rather then the police during last year anti terror raids . This stance also pokes holes in my argument to a degree but then again some people may always choose arms rather then the political process even when they have both options.

What Justin talks about reminds of the German Republic around 1919 .

reply to post by xpert11

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Here follow the schedule for mailing out the STIMULUS money. Using the last 2 digits of your SSN, you will receive your check by week of:

Group 1. 00 - 09, July 23

Group 2. 10 - 19, July 30

Group 3. 20 - 29, August 6

Group 4. 30 - 39, August 13

Group 5. 40 - 49, August 20

Group 6, 50 - 59, August 27

Group 7. 60 - 69, Sept. 3

Group 8. 70 - 79, Sept. 10

Group 9. 80 - 89, Sept. 17

Group 10. 90 - 99, Sept. 24


Election is Nov 4. Hmm?