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The Radicalization of America

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posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 12:53 AM
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Based on your remarks, I have one question. How many people do you think will leave the military AFTER stop loss is terminated? How many of those departed will become miitant radicals?




posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 03:00 AM
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If current trends continue for long enough rationing of such items of food and petrol look like they are .ed our way . A black market could develop for basic food items or such things as booze will become a luxury only high income earners can afford. Coupled with social unrest rationing could provide a back door for governments to introduce a national id card.



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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An underground economy is already in place and has been for some time. We also have a unique underground railroad of sorts. There are a number of people ready and willing to help those that are for the founding principles and against tyranical govt.

We will only see an increase in its use as well as a more open door policy towards it. Barter is very hard to regulate. What may be difficult, but not impossible will be finding an item to give a set value to that can be used and accepted as an exchange medium.

As I see it the dollar will become to regulated to use in this type of market scenario. However something will be found to take its place. When this happens we will see an increase of "radicalized" movements by the people.

respectfully

reluctantpawn



posted on Apr, 24 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 



Based on your remarks, I have one question. How many people do you think will leave the military AFTER stop loss is terminated? How many of those departed will become militant radicals?


First off, I’m thinking the Army has 450,000. The Navy and Air Force about 300,000 each and the Marine Corps, 125,000. Recently there was approval to raise the Army by 50,000 and the MC by 25,000. Whereas in the WW2, Korean and Vietnam era, we did military calculations in division units today’s planning is in brigade strength units. A typical US infantry division runs 18,000 men and women while a brigade may number 3,000 t0 6,000 depending on its mission.

National Guard and Organized Reserves were to furnish an equal number of personnel as back-up and emergency fillers-in. Due to near total incompetence in the Oval Office and a complete lack of testosterone in the upper levels of our once proud General Staff, those men and women have been severely abused by Bush43 and the heartless Oberfuhrer, Herr Rumsfeld.

Although Bushr43 easily sacrificed Herr Rumsfeld after the ‘06 reversal at the polls, Rumsfeld’s terrible management style of nearly 6 years will take a decade to undo. As overbearing and mean as VP Cheney but only half as clever.

I’d guess 10% to 25% of NG and Res will quit when allowed to do so. As for the so-called VOLUNTEER Army, we’re already paying $50,000 bonus to a lower4 grade EM to sign over for another enlistment tour. Frankly, lower 4 can be replaced with 90 days basic and 90 days advanced infantry training. If the US is having to pay $50 K for this level of soldier they are in deep do-do.

The NCO ranks - E5 to E9, is where armies are made and lost. These are the guys who get the “grunts” to carry out the platoon leaders orders. No good NCOs and you are a loser before the first shot is fired. If a grunt is worth $50 K, an E6 or E7 is worth $150,000 in my mind.

Officer corps. O1, a second lieutenant or ensign, is the entry level. Automatically promoted to O2 after 18 months of keeping out of trouble, his next promotion to O3 depends on his performance. The O4 level - major or lieutenant commander - is where the career types are sorted out from the non-fit types. Any officer who is “passed over” on the promotion list 2 times, is expected to resign. The O4 promotion is the first real close scrutiny the man has received.

O4, O5 and O6, so-called field grade as the first 3 officer grades are referred to as company grade, are at the beginning of a lifetime career in the Armed Forces. Between 20-25 years, good men will make O6, not so good O5, and that’s it. A “comer” will make O6 in under 20 years. Watch him, he may soon get a star!

Our Army has been overloaded with RANK for generations. When Ike was given the task of invading North Africa he was a Major General - 2 stars - and he made his 3rd star in Africa after a rocky start. He owed his second chance to General Marshall. Our 5 star rank - equal to a European field marshal - was not adopted until late 1944 and when those few men died, that was it. Trivia: Which man has held 5 star rank in TWO branches of service?

So how many men will NOT sign over when they are free to go? If the DYING is still going on, I’d guess 33% to 40%. If we have reached an accommodation with the Iraqi people and consented to let them choose their own leaders instead of us, then not more than 20% will quit. As long as we keep trying to jam OUR people down their throats, there will be no peace in Iraq.

Bush43 is doing everything he can to MUCK UP the military situation in Iraq before he departs. He’s stacking the deck with his 4 star sycophants of which there is no shortage. If I was the next president, I’d fire every general who was appointed by Bush43 since 2006, automatically. I’d skip over ALL the 4 stars and put good 3 star and a few 2 star men in charge. I’d revamp the 3 academies to produce the kind of officers who will stand up to the president when they KNOW he is wrong if not crazy. OR quit the service!

This bad situation - generals not knowing who they really work for - is mostly due to real time communications capability which has been no blessing! It lets jerks like Rumsfeld and Cheney and Bush4r3 made decisions they were TOTALLY unqualified to make. Trivia answer: H.H. "Hap" Arnold was a 5 star General of the Army in the Army Air Force then he became the first and only 5 star General of the Ari Force (1947).

[edit on 4/24/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 25 2008 @ 03:16 PM
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As our economic sutuation continues to degrade, it may become necessary to withdrawl from Iraq for economic reasons in addition to those alrady stated by many smart posters. If you estimate is accurate, we may end up seeing a significant number of militant vets in next decade who champion social causes.

Are we going to see a resurrection of the Black Panthers and The Weatherman Underground? It's beginning to look like it to me. This recession and depression is going to hit the working poor very hard. A lot of discharged vets on pensions will fall in to that category.

On this point, I do agree with you. We could be in for another dose of the 60's all over again.



posted on May, 4 2008 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 



If you estimate is accurate, we may end up seeing a significant number of militant vets in next decade who champion social causes.


I expect that is so. We have learned how deficient the Veterans Administration is operated for the benefit of the veterans. I go to the VA Outpatient Clinic in L’ville once a year for blood work and a clothes-on physical exam. This is required in order to keep my access to prescription medicines current. I pay $8 per 30 days supply mailed to me in 3 month quantities. I have had only good experiences in L’ville.

But OTOH, I’m really NOT getting MEDICAL care either. The VA Hospital built there as WW2 was ending is being replaced by a $300 million 400 bed unit located downtown in the University of Louisville Medical Center. The old hospital will be converted into a high skill level nursing facility for long term care.

I’ve been going to the VA off and on since the 1960s. Some things never change. Like the big, heavy, maroon leather chairs we sit in as we wait our turn. But staff have always been cordial and want to help. I have noticed that 2 years ago the VA began to bill Medicare for over-65 year old vet’s care. Now, I get the lower of the Part D price or the VA price for medications. (I also have Part D coverage. The policy written in hell).

Reflections. When I re-enlisted in the Air Force in 1963, I got my physical exam at Nichols General Hospital, a WW2 Army hospital that was at one time one of the largest in the US, with over 5,000 patients. Shortly after my experience, it was sold to private entrepreneurs who made into low cost apartments - say slums. Probably bid rigging and insider info involved, but sheez, it’s everywhere and you can only catch so many crooks in the time allotted.



Are we going to see a resurrection of the Black Panthers and The Weatherman Underground? It's beginning to look like it to me.


You’ve got to - if you have time - listen to “1968: The Year That Rocked the World” by Mark Kurlansky, 2004. See RC62834. Your questions about the 1960s will be answered. Black Panthers were OK in my book. Weather Underground were not. In my book. I’m not yet into dynamiting underpasses during rush hours. OTOH, if our Army or MC or NG open fire with live ammo on US citizens (or illegals) then my attitude would change quickly. No more Mayor Daley and Chicago police riots as in 1968.

No more Kent State where unarmed students 300 yards away from young but armed NG killed 4 students with M1 rifles. I’ve always said you DON’T give soldiers real bullets! That is elementary. The ranking NCO carries the bullets to be dispensed on an officer's order WHEN NEEDED. Soldiers are NEVER allowed to have live ammo in the barracks. It is a punishable offense.



This recession and depression is going to hit the working poor very hard. A lot of discharged vets on pensions will fall in to that category. On this point, I do agree with you. We could be in for another dose of the 60's all over again.


America seems perfectly content to have 500,000+ homeless people wandering around the country. 25% are veterans. We’ve had the homeless now for 20-30 years so I guess you could say it’s an acceptable PART of the American Landscape. Another reason I HATE gated communities. Until the R&Fs who are the Movers and Shakers have to walk around the drunken hulks sleeping on the sidewalk, they will drive their Benzs to their megachurches and PRAY for them. "Thank you Jesus that I am not like them." We do like to brag we are the richest country in the world. I’m getting agitated just thinking about it. I guess I hate the hypocrisy almost as much as the R&Fs. But you get my drift.

[edit on 5/4/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 10:01 AM
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Post war treatment (or lack thereof) for Vietnam era vets played its own role in the radicalization of the 1960's and in the agitations of the 1970's.

When service personnel are victimized by the government they served, it tends to lead them down the path to radicalization.

As I write this, there are an estimated 200,000 homeless vets. I've met many, and I do think they have just cause for their anger. If the economy turns bad enough to "motivate" them, we could see a rash of crime that could escalate in to terrorism.

Would the media be willing to tell us the difference between the two? I think not.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 



As I write this, there are an estimated 200,000 homeless vets. I've met many, and I do think they have just cause for their anger. If the economy turns bad enough to "motivate" them, we could see a rash of crime that could escalate in to terrorism. Would the media be willing to tell us the difference between the two? I think not.


By his taking over the WSJ - most conservative of the large circulation US newspapers - Dow Jones - then promptly firing the man who he promised he would not fire, Rupert Murdoch shows again he is smut driven profit oriented and completely devoid of ethics, morals or character. A fact I already knew as you will recall I have HATED that man forever. Now he is caught out in the open for all to see. When he bought his first English newspaper I could see this man portended ill for decent and civil society.

CNN under Time-Warner is now a cheap imitation of FOX News. When owned by Ted Turner it was THE reliable news source. Not now. See Glen Beck. Get sick with Nancy Grace. And so on. CNN's milder Anderson Cooper is a castrated rich boy wanna be Dan Rather but he will never make it. His best level of accomplishment will be to replace Wolf Blitzer. Part-time.

Aside: My preference? BBC’s Katty Kay is my dream-girl of a correspondent. Smart and pretty! I do wish America adhered to the First Amendment so I could watch Al Jazeera. The bane of American electronic media! english.aljazeera.net...

Public Service.

Meat Recall today. 100s of 1000s of pounds of red meat products marketed under the labels, Gourmet Bouquet, Jan’s and Archer Farms is infected with a serious food poisoning virus. Department of Agriculture bulletin. Another example of the lack of adequate inspection staff at work! The tainted meat should have been caught at the plant. You know. Under the Reagan Plan the meat packers do their own inspecting and "report" to the Dpt. of Ag. Wow! Republican REACTIVE replaces Democrat's PRO ACTIVE. The meat packer gets RICH and you get SICK! Yeah, vote republican again.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 06:32 PM
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Bad government is bad government, no matter which party is in the majority. Conservatives should speak up when the Republicans get stupid. Liberals should speak up when the Democrats drop the ball. We should all speak up when we're not being well served.



posted on May, 5 2008 @ 06:51 PM
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Good article and have to agree with most of what you said.

I really beleive it is aimed at having a New World Order with America as the master government.

There is one big problem NWO architects failed to see and that is China's econonmic and military rise without turning into a Capitalist society as they wanted. China is merely simulating a Capitalism while remaining Communist at the core. In short, they are using American Elitists greed against them.

Now this becomes a battle for New World Order between the world's only two SuperPowers. The US built the other SuperPower and now will have to contend with that.

[edit on 5-5-2008 by jetxnet]



posted on May, 7 2008 @ 01:46 AM
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That's an intersting point of view. Thanks for elaborating. It's hard to convince people that they should be concerned about something that won't be happening for a few more years.



posted on May, 20 2008 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 




jetxnet posts
I really believe it is aimed at having a New World Order with America as the master government.


That is straight out of the Neo Conservative Playbook. But they botched the game so badly that hopefully even the barest mention of the words “Neo Con” will close the ears of all good folk in hearing distance, made sick by the memory of their REIGN OF TERROR!




jetxnet posts
There is one big problem NWO architects failed to see and that is China's economics and military rise without turning into a capitalist society as they wanted. China is merely simulating a capitalism while remaining communist at the core. Now this becomes a battle for New World Order between the world's only two superpowers.


Justin Oldham posts
That's an interesting point of view. Thanks for elaborating. It's hard to convince people that they should be concerned about something that won't be happening for a few more years.


I have to disagree on China as a super power. First, there are now TWO China’s much like there are TWO Americas. In China’s case, it is the 300 million (23%) Coastal dwellers and the 1 billion (77%) Inland dwellers. Already the disparity in median incomes between the 2 zones is 5 X or 6 X. More than 40,000 incidents of civil disorder in the Inland Zone has been admitted to by the PRC including 2 where shots were fired. The newly “rich” Coastal Zone people are no more happy to be taxed to raise the standard of living for those inland Zone types than Americans are rushing to help our 45 million who lack health care insurance. That 70% of African Americans live at or under the poverty line means not a whit to any of them.

Second.
Add to that the total air and water pollution of China and I would never trade their newfound prosperity for the problems it has created. Out of country Olympians are bringing their own OXYGEN for the August 8 to August 24 shebang in Beijing. That’s bad my friend, when you are under medical advice NOT to breathe deeply!

The May 12 Magnitude 7.8 or 7.9 earthquake in Sichuan, China, has revealed ill-constructed buildings falling down around the whole countryside, trapping and killing perhaps 80,000 people and leaving 5 million homeless. Hey Bush43, how about sending Brownie over there? Remember him? You thought he did such a great job in New Orleans! Note: China's deadliest earthquake in modern history struck the northeastern city of Tangshan on July 28, 1976, killing 240,000 people. End of note. The PRC was torn between the need to house and serve 10s of millions of people and an all too finite supply of both concrete and re-bar. Reinforcing steel bars. You can be sure the whole of China is similarly constructed. A tragedy lying in wait for an exciting event.

China has not yet entered into the competition with the US military wise. I am hoping against hope they will not. It is the excuse the warmongers in W-DC - say Hello John McCain - are "praying" for to condemn us to another generation of endless WAR. We are now spending close to $1 t. a year for current and past wars. And not an enemy worthy of our power! The CIA and DoD are under strict orders from Bush43: "Forget that A--rab pimp Osama bin Laden, but for God's Sake, FIND us a WORTHY enemy quick!" Sweet Jesus! Come Quick!

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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Within the next 10-20 years, I expect China to be that worthy adversary that you seek. If you will recall, a lot of people made similar observations about the shabbiness of the old Soviet Union.



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 07:51 AM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 



Within the next 10-20 years, I expect China to be that worthy adversary that you seek. If you will recall, a lot of people made similar observations about the shabbiness of the old Soviet Union.


You are right about overestimating the old USSR but I'm very skeptical about any predictions "10 to 20 years out." Looking backwards, who would have thought we'd be in this pickle of a mess in 1998? The world in turmoil, our economy in shambles! And King Abdul ignores say humiliates his old friend, Bush43!

Remember that China is putting on-line ONE new coal fired electric generating plant per week, until 2010. About 100. Coal fired are the worst emitters of CO2. And in China, probably of NOX also. Not to even mention particulates.

Remember that the Three Gorges Dam has not been tested by heavy rains upstream on the Yangtze River yet. Or by a 7.9 earthquake! Should that dam fail catastrophically, upwards of 10 million people are at risk.

China does not have the infrastructure for building a modern war machine as we have here. We have 3,000,000 mies of paved roads. 50,000 miles of mainline railroads. 5,000 commercial jet flights per day. 120 million cell phones. Not in this century!

The PLA has never been more than a May Day Parade outfit. The PLA is an internal peacekeeping outfit notwithstanding all the HYPE we put on them as a THREAT. Well, as a POTENTIAL threat!

I believe China will decline our invitation to war. Thanks, but NO thanks.

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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I think you will find that many "AT"S members disagree on the military aspect of China. The can field an effective force, if they want to. That capability will only improve with time. China is not as "rotten" from the inside as the USSR had been.



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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Well there can be no doubt that China would benefit from the kind of political unrest that has been discussed in this thread. All of which leaves open the following questions .

Would China covertly support insurgent groups in the US ?
If so what what form would the support take ?



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by xpert11
 



Well there can be no doubt that China would benefit from the kind of unrest that has been discussed in. All of which leaves open the following questions. (1) Would China covertly support insurgent groups in the US? (2) If so what form would the support take?


1) Homegrown
rebels might take on the disguise of Tibetan llamas. They could travel on religious passports - specials for the clergy - and . off to Lhasa. On the way, they’d divert to some remote place in the Gobi Desert where they would receive training. Then back to the US of A to spread the word on organizing and so on.

2) The Chi-coms
would furnish lots of money to buy their way into security forces and info etc. How to “jam” the NSA monitors and etc. Heavy weapons could be smuggled into the US in the 25-30,000 cargo containers per day that hit our shores, mostly from China.

The resistance
would organize around core cities. Boston, NYC, Philly, W-DC, Miami, Chicago, St. Louis, Atlanta, Birmingham, Houston, D-FW, Phoenix, San Diego, LA - 2 or 3 branches there - SF and Seattle. 17 or 18 groups. They would employ GANG tactics and use both motorcycles and 18 wheeler trucks as their means of travel and communications by messengers and etc.

Coordinated
mischief around the country would drive the OPPRESSORS into well deserved misery and compounded with hyper confusion. Young computer geeks would drive the FBI and CIA nuts! They could hack into Bank of America and order $10,000 checks sent to every depositor! With interrupted and gasoline and natural gas deliveries the public would grow weary of this and demand COMPROMISE solution.

Sadly
we have learned by watching that you cannot TRUST anything the US Government says, so we’d have to do it the old way. It might work!

[edit on 05/05/2008 by donwhite]



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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the terms and conditions of this web site don't permit us to get in to the finer points of this topic, but your examples do make the point. If and when enough people become radicalized, tney'll feel motivated. When they are motivated, its only a matter of time until they encounter that one catalyst that encourages them to act.

If we look around, we can see that this process of radicalization has already begun. It's like a slow moving tide. It's not easy to keep track of until your feet get wet.



posted on May, 21 2008 @ 08:39 PM
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The terms and conditions of living in the USA under the current fascist regime restrict me from speaking what I actually think, without fear of physical harm. And they certainly prevent me from acting on my thoughts, without deadly repercussions.

As it turns out, even the T and C of my internet provider are broken when I post some of the more tame ideas. Seriously, Charter Cable has all sorts of stuff about terrorism, promoting dissent, and other patriot act garbage built right into the T and C.

This is great thread by the way. Lots of good discourse. Sorry that I can't add any substantial arguments, I don't want to get banned.



posted on May, 23 2008 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Ionized
This is great thread by the way. Lots of good discourse. Sorry that I can't add any substantial arguments, I don't want to get banned.


You're not wrong. It's ironic that I'm posting this on the start of a Memorial Day weekend.



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