The Radicalization of America

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posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that American society is entering a new period of radicalization. Men and women from all walks of life are increasingly dissatisfied with the positions taken by our national and State-level governments. Our collective futures no longer seem quite so secure. Our individual economic prosperity seems to be in jeopardy. All of these factors merge to create an unsettling force that irritates us to action. We’re just not sure what that action should be.

If there is a conspiracy at work here, it would seem to be founded in the notion that our leaders benefit from the chaos and uncertainty that they’ve sworn to protect us from. We are no longer urged to be observant, brave, and self-sufficient. We are asked to be compliant, patient, and open to direction from those in charge. The expectation has been fostered in many of us that we shouldn’t do for ourselves. We’re selfish, if we do. Instead, we are applauded if we wait for direction and do as we’re told.

This trend has been under scrutiny for quite some time. It’s not like we haven’t seen this coming. It hasn’t snuck up on us. It’s here. Now. Federal authority has increased dramatically over the last seven years. The mainstream media encourages social passivity. More importantly, it extols the virtues of compliance. We’re “good citizens” so long as we do what we’re told.

We’ve become so divided that we now joke about being hyphenated Americans. Today’s media marketers get a real thrill from turning us against each other. It’s a type of influence they excersize arrogantly. We’ve always been vulnerable to this kind of manipulation, but we’ve never been so saturated with radio, television, and internet access. To make matters worse, leaders in government approve. They don’t see anything wrong with the race baiting or the social aggravation that goes on in today’s multi-media “assault.”

What do we do about such powerful forces arrayed against us? If we’re finally fed up, we should take stock of our own lives and make the changes close to home that matter most. Get an education. Mend fences with family. Put an end to destructive behaviors. Figure out what maters to us individually, and try harder. Personal responsibility creates social awareness, which leads to national expectations.

Those national expectations will influence our leaders at the State and Federal levels. As they read our will, and our mood, they’ll understand what we will and won’t tolerate. As I write this, our society is at the mercy of a generation of leaders who think we’ll tolerate just about anything. As long as we remain divided and irresponsible, we’ll continue to send that message, whether we mean it or not.

The political, social, and economic factors that make us feel insecure and angry will eventually motivate us to adopt radical behaviors. That’ll translate to increased crime, vice, domestic violence, and domestic terrorism. As these issues become more prominent in the nation-wide media and in our private lives, our current crop of leaders will be increasingly tempted to exploit our misfortunes for their own gain.

What does that really mean?

As our dissatisfaction with government continues to grow, some of us will plan for hard times. We’ll make career changes, pay off our debts, save up some money, and re-evaluate some of our long term goals with person safety and family security in mind. Others will decide that they have no good options. A very small percentage of our society will resort to violence to exploit a worsening situation for their own gain.

In the modern context, radicalism will result in home-grown terrorism that will be exploited by our leaders. In the same way that Federal officials “fail” to act decisively against terrorism aborad, they’ll fall short here at home until they’ve achieved all the power there is to have. Then, and only then, will they crack down just hard enough to suppress what they’ll call “fanatical opposition” here at home.

In their day, the leaders of the Soviet Union didn’t totally eliminate political opposition. They pushed just hard enough to keep the opposition in check. They kept the radicals in play so that there would always be an enemy for the loyalist people to fear. Partially defeated terrorism amounts to job security for the 21st century political party that can maintain majorities in the House and the Senate. Don’t mistake this for anarchism. It’s too premeditated to be random.

They serve us, or we serve them. The choice is still ours to make until a combination of media manipulation and political positioning create the right moment for that initiative to be taken away from us. That “moment” will occur during this century. It’s likely to happen within the next two decades. No society survives that kind of polarization without paying an extreme price.

Our first civil war was fought for a combination of economic and political reasons. Our next internal conflict will also be fought for economic and political reasons. The integrity of the Union will be at stake, too. There will be one vital difference. The outcome won’t affect “some” us. It’ll affect “all” of us. Federal supremacy might very well become the new slavery.

Before we have to witness such terrible events, we’ll have to endure at least one decade of domestic terror. We can’t stop this radicalization from over taking us, but we can prevent our leaders from exploiting it if and only if we can insist on responsibility and civic accountability to such an extent that the social considerations become an acknowledged political factor that our leaders can’t ignore. They will serve us, or we will serve them.

In future posts, I'll show you examples of this trend as they are reported in the mainstream media. I will also discuss options to counter what's coming. Agree? Disagree? I invite you to share your thoughts and opinions.




posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 01:39 PM
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Justin, while I harbor the utmost respect for you and the ideas and opinions you express here on ATS, I must take issue with the basic premise of this post.

The term "Radicalization" is, I believe, the wrong choice of terms here. "Radicalization" is process, or journey, from passivity to activism, and the root words of "Activism" are "active" or "action". This implies that some form of physical action and sincere effort is to be taken to complete goals for a cause. To be honest Justin, I don't see that. I see plenty of hollow calls-to-arms from people who want to sit back and take the path of least resistance, like complaining on the internet, but few, very few, who are willing to engage in any sort of "action" or activity that requires any genuine effort. The lazy man's route is the path of today's American "revolutionaries", but if you can't bring your Xbox, then its not for them.

Maybe the term you were looking for was something like "polarization". I see a good deal of divisiveness, but not a lot of action.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 01:41 PM
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Well, if you stop and think about it, we haven't really had a leader since Reagan who told us to take our government back.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by Reality Hurts
The term "Radicalization" is, I believe, the wrong choice of terms here. "Radicalization" is process, or journey, from passivity to activism, and the root words of "Activism" are "active" or "action". This implies that some form of physical action and sincere effort is to be taken to complete goals for a cause.


Hello R.H.:

I chose my wrods carefully. Radical is what I meant. I am in fact referring to the actual journey, but in this case it results in militancy. You're assuming that activism is always postiive. It's true that radical activism can be promulgated with a positive intent, but the factors I'm citing have a real negative potential.

We can go postive, or negative. The choice is still ours, and that's the underlying point I wanted to make. Without that positive intent which is backed up by positive actions, we're going to be in for a dark period in our history. For some, the path of least resistence will be militancy. It's always easier to take than to earn. Its always easier to tear down rather than build up.

I'm glad you have a positive outlook on life. Unfortunately, we'll be dealing with those who don't when they become so radicalized that they feel justified in turning to crime for survival, or to violence for political expedience. My over-arching concern is that our leaders will be too tempted to exploit these things for their own gain, rather than making the investments and doing the hard word that would be required to make things better.

Domestic terrorism isn't inevitable. We're facing a decade in which it will be "normal," and I'm not looking forward to that. Like all the other issues you see discussed in this forum, I wanted to kick this one around so that we could all have a shot at identifying it. We may not be able to stop it, but we do need to realize what we face and why. Then and only then do we have any chance of stopping it.

Because our social and political elites won't be altogether on our side, we've got to go in to this difficult period with our eyes open.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


I appreciate that you worded things carefully, and intentionally, but in this case I respectfully must disagree.

Even assuming the worst in human nature, the radicalization you are alluding to requires action, otherwise it is merely "extremism". Extremism is an espousal of a particular ideology, but without without active undertaking of causes. Your garden variety disaffected American extremist may support an ideology, he may sit back and passively support the effort, but what separates him from "radicals" is that they actively work towards the goals. This requires action, i.e. meeting, planning, recruiting, protesting, or in the more negative elements, undermining those people or organizations that present an obstacle to the progress of their ideals, politically, or otherwise.

What I do see is a progressive polarization, left and right, and a growing population of extremists. What I do not see, thus far, is the radicalization of those extremists, though admittedly that may come in time. I just do not believe that we are as far along as you may think we are. Never underestimate the inherent laziness that comfort brings.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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Let's presume that you're totally right, and I'm wrong. What's to be done?



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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Well, that depends upon your beliefs and values. Do you wish to tear it all down and start over? Do you wish a return to the Ozzie & Harriet days? Truly there many paths to take.

Is there a way to stop it? Not likely. Is there a way to minimize the potential damage of the extremist and radicals? Certainly, but it would require a fundamental change in the way that America operates. Changes in Mr & Mrs Middle America's mindsets, a willingness of the American citizenry to sacrifice comfort to endure positive change, reform in government and how elected officials and lobbyists interact, campaign finance changes, a willingness of some powerful members to effect drastic change, a separation of corporate interests & government officials, all of these would be a start.

The key here is sacrifice. That is what separates us, as we are, from significant change, be it positive or negative. When the extremists become so disaffected that they are willing to endure hardship to enact radical change, then they will do so. When the general populace and their Congressional reps are willing to sacrifice comfort for positive change, it too will happen.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 09:14 PM
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Let's run with that. How would you go about starting that movement?



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 10:35 AM
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Personally, and this isn't a cop out, I wouldn't start it.

I will do something that is relatively rare here on the internet, I'll be honest. I am one of those people who just isn't ready to sacrifice all that I have to enact change. I like my 52 inch plasma with surround sound, I like my new pc & laptop, I like my condos ion the beach, I like my cars, I like my leather couches, I like the companies that I own & the profits generated from them. And above all, I like the safety and security that my life, as is, provides for my family.

Maybe when all of that is endangered I will have an interest in starting a movement. At the moment, yeah, I can admit it, I like my life, and I'm not ready to turn it upside down.



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by Reality Hurts
 


I think the point is that your life is going to be turned upside down.

Are you willing to tolerate productive citizens being harrased by a police state if it means you can watch all the television you want in your million-dollar beachside prison? Walk from your livingroom to your attached garage, sit in your car for an hour on your way to work, park in your office parking structure, sit in your cubicle, repeat. Our economy is founded not just on productivity, but on growth in productivity. How are Americans supposed to innovate when they live in sensory deprivation chambers, trained by public schools to take tests but never to think?

If your money is suddenly worth nothing, who will you rely on? What have you done to support local business that is resilient against economic losses on the other side of the globe? What artists will entertain and enlighten you when you can't afford to rent videos at Blockbuster? Where will you live when the subrubs become slums like they are in every other country on the planet? What misery will you leave in your wake?

Leave the country? Sure, then the CIA comes after you. March in the streets? There will be government-organized counter-demonstrations with riot police to back them up. Write your legislators? Private citizens are second-class citizens.

Our leaders govern by symbolic acts in public and bribery in private. There's more money to be had in managing disaster than in preventing it. Until they are all replaced by people willing to write new laws, discontent will continue to grow. They can be replaced peacefully, or their power will be taken by force.

We still have the vote. Does it mean anything? I have a simple way to help find out. In the 2008 presidential elections, vote for yourself or the pretend candidate of your choice. Think of it as a "no confidence" vote in our leadership. Demand to see your vote in print after the elections. See if your vote is counted, talk to other people who did the same. Help verify the statistical accuracy of our voting system.

Don't buy the propaganda that you should only vote for a candidate who is "electable." If we had candidates of substance they would be using their millions of dollars as a platform to improve America, to tell Americans things of value and substance, rather than prattle on about how we need to work for change instead of hope for it, or how they believe in families.

Don't buy the propaganda that voting for yourself is throwing your vote away, or taking a vote away from some other candidate. If a vote is earned, it is given to a candidate. If you give your vote to somebody who hasn't earned it, that's throwing your vote away.



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by Reality Hurts
Personally, and this isn't a cop out, I wouldn't start it.

Maybe when all of that is endangered I will have an interest in starting a movement.


Your honesty is to be commended. I'll give your post a star. One of the underlying points in my original post that started this thread is that...eventually...you may have to make that choice. It's not unreasonable (per logic) to say that you wouldn't act until the moment arises. I don't think most people will act until the problem is at their door step.

Those who see this nightmare coming need to start talking about it now. It's going to take a long time for us to find each other, and do the networking thing. We'll need to learn patience and refine our arguments. As we establish a track record of honest and meaningful discussion without hate speech, we become credible.

I know that some of you don't think that matters, but R.H. is not alone in his thinking. Things are good now, and that's a "disincentive" to get involved with what sounds like theoretical disaster planning. There is a possibility that we could be wrong. Why worry about something when you think the other guy is wrong?

In this case, I do think that individually observable events will play out as predicted. The down side is that it'll take a while, and that runs counter to the desire for instant gratification that many of us are so familiar with.

As projected by many ATS members, the recession we're about to face won't really bite us in the wallet until 2009. Over the course of 2008, we'll see the credit crisis get worse and the housing market continues to go down down down. Commercial property woes are expected to begin in the later months of '08. By 2010, the unemployment numbers start to get nasty. All of that sounds so very far away.

Don't confuse comfort for stupid. People like R.H. are pragmatic when they say they'll do something if and when they have to. That's how most people are going to approach this problem. I'm hoping that, by talking about it, they'll see the problem for what it is sooner than later.



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by America Jones
I think the point is that your life is going to be turned upside down.


The economic crisis and political machinations that add to the problem will certainly upset a lot of lives. Many people aren't sure how that'll affect then. Some will actaully be convinced that they are immune. Due to their wealth and private security arrangements, they might really be untouched.

Political factors aside, it takes years of effort and planning for the average household to chart its financial course. Reaching those goals won't be as easy they might sound. As we talk about crime, unemployment, and domestic terrorism, we should also be talking about the prudent steps that the average person can take...over time...to be 'prepared' for this rough decade.

Most of it boils down to paying off debts as you can, while you can. "if I had known this was coming I would've started planning years ago." Because we have the luxury of so much lead time, its not a good idea to be urgent about stockpiling for the worst. No point in sounding more alarmist than we already do.

We should stay focused on what could happen. We should be prepared to back up our assertions with relevant observations. At the same time, we should be ready to discuss options. Those options will do more to win argumetns than anything else we say.



posted on Jan, 18 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


The economic crisis and political machinations that add to the problem will certainly upset a lot of lives. Many people aren't sure how that'll affect then. Some will actaully be convinced that they are immune. Due to their wealth and private security arrangements, they might really be untouched.

We should stay focused on what could happen. We should be prepared to back up our assertions with relevant observations. At the same time, we should be ready to discuss options. Those options will do more to win arguments than anything else we say.


I have argued elsewhere that our much revered FFs - Founding Fathers - mucked us real good in 1787. First, the bicameral legislature guarantees duplication of every effort. Look at today, as both Dems and GOPS call for a quick economic stimulus in hopes of forestalling further declines in our economy. I’m hearing the House is ready to pass a quick shot in the arm, $800 tax cut for singles, $1,600 for marrieds, for this year only. The GOP want to do something for their constituency, big business. Halliburton. Etc. That won’t get the time of day in the House but in the Senate, ah, that’s another story.

Any action passed by the House must start over in th Senate. The populists Dems will have to fight off the pro privilege GOPs who want to take advantage of the country's economic crunch. Remember poor people do not cause problems. They have no money, they have no power. They do mostly what they are told to do.

You should know by now that the R&Fs - rich and famous - are well placed to get their share and then some! It seems unfair to me as it is the R&Fs who brought on this economic disaster we call a mortgage meltdown. Now we have to PAY them? Sweet Jesus! But that’s what we got in 1787. The US Con. Good for sail boats, muzzle loading muskets and horse drawn wagons, but a bit long in the tooth for 2008.

We started this presidential cycle in January, ‘07. I don’t know why. If anyone does, PLEASE let me (and us) know. Now, some 12 months later we are still over 12 months away from anyone taking office.

So what’s my offering? We need a Constitutional Convention and we need it fast! Conventions Number 1 and Number 2 were in Philadelphia. I have no reason not to hold Number 3 in Philly. The first two outcomes served the people of the time well enough, but it won’t cut it in Century21. Forty-one senators can block 300,000,000 people! As quaint as that sounds, it also sounds stupid to me.

Hey, World, Stand Still While We Muck Around Some More!

[edit on 1/18/2008 by donwhite]



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 12:52 AM
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There is a very definite radicalization going on in America. Conservatives have now find their party of choice hijacked by radicals who are now at the helm, and Liberals find their own party under attack from the ground up. The monied elites who have interests in both parties can’t bring themselves to stop what they’re doing because they are so-o-o close to achieving total power that they can taste it.

Like the Senators of Old Rome, they don’t really care that they’re wrecking the country. Better to be the uncontested ruler of a second-rate nation than subject to the whims of the voters in a super-power. That seems to be their twisted logic at the moment. As the play write said, “better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.”

You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that we are 30-60 days away from the first “hit” that will signal the start of a national economic recession. President Bush’s feeble attempts to stall that economic downturn have managed to keep; the monster at bay, but they haven’t prevented its growth. Now, we’re all about to pay for a fiscal disgrace that didn’t have to happen.

The dirty little secret that nobody wants you to know about is the fact that the investment companies are that writing off billions each have…insurance…that is meant to off-set their losses. None of these insurance firms has enough cash on hand to pay more than 20% of the liabilities they have insured. That means that when the hammer falls, 80% of the sub prime losses that are supposed to be covered up and made “good” by insurance will force investment firms and insurers in to bankruptcy.

That bankruptcy is going to “require” a government bail-out of historic proportions. We might see an immediate drop in the stock market (Dow Jones Average) of 2,000 points. That’s just for starters. Remember that there’s a symbiotic relationship between the banks, investment companies, insurance companies, and credit card vendors. Those banks that don’t make their money through credit cards do make their millions through investment transactions or insurance premiums.

The bottom line is that we will see multiple sectors of the economy fail:

--Stock market brokerages will fail because they bought too many bad mortgages
--Mortgage companies will fail because they currently hold too many bad mortgages
--Credit card divisions of various banks will fail in a “cascade effect” because card holders will default in favor of paying their mortgages, AND some card holders will be forced in to bankruptcy due to failed housing loans and credit lines that happen at the same time.

Because the MSM is doing such a good job of scaring everyone, we should expect to see a run on the stock market triggered by the release of 4th quarter ’07 financial numbers. December data, in particular, is going to be quite…nasty…for a variety of reasons. Bear in mind that the bad news is going to look worse due to the normal end-of-year adjustments that always take place.

President Bush might (might) stall this disaster until some time early in 2nd quarter of this year with his talk of stimulus and bail-outs, but we shold be ready to be hip deep in this thing by mid July. If any of this sounds familiar, you may recall that I predicted mid-’08 as the start of an economic downturn that could last through 2014 the work that I’m known for. I would have preferred to be wrong about this, but we can’t always have what we want.

Hard times are going to heighten this radicalization, and we’re not going to like all of what we see. Yes, we will be treated to some very rousing oratory that demands reform, but we’re also boing to be scared wit-less by homegrown terrorists who are going to think they’re doing the right thing. If you ever wanted a real conspiracy, this would be it.

During this time of unprecedented wealth and turmoil, our leaders will be tempted to do all the wrong things. Reform is hard. Plunder is easy. Give us four years of hard times, and we’ll beg for a strong-willed leader to “save us.” When we’re told that the price of our salvation is obedience to an even larger government, we just might bow our heads nad accept what comes. Or…we might not.



posted on Jan, 19 2008 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


There is a very definite radicalization going on in America. Conservatives find their party of choice hijacked by radicals and Liberals find their own party under attack from the ground up. The monied elites who have interests in both parties can’t bring themselves to stop what they’re doing because they are so-o-o close to achieving total power that they can taste it. As the play write said, “better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven.”

You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that we are 30-60 days away from the first “hit” that will signal the start of a national economic recession . . we’re all about to pay for a fiscal disgrace that didn’t have to happen.

The dirty little secret that nobody wants you to know is the fact that the investment companies writing off billions each have … insurance … that is meant to off-set their losses. None of the insurance firms has enough cash to pay more than 20% of the liabilities they insured. That bankruptcy is going to “require” a government bail-out of historic proportions.


I’ve been there. In the halcyon days of the low inflation 1960s, some of the local S&Ls began to offer depositors higher rates and often added bonus gifts like toasters and coffeemakers for new depositors. People lined up to withdraw funds from neighborhood S&Ls wearing the FSLIC badge. Not to worry they replied, “my new S&L has a sign in the window saying INSURED.”

At the first moderate downturn the “INSURED” S&Ls collapsed. Risky loans. Insider trading. Insufficient collateral. And lo and behold, the insurance company was chartered in Panama. Which is to say the depositors lost in all. GREED was the major contributing factor.

So in comes the Feds - that much maligned government of ours - and all the mortgages were parceled out to the Federally insured S&Ls according to their size. Over a 20 year period, 90% of the “bad” mortgages ultimately paid out. The LOSS to depositors was minimized. The BAILOUT cost the Feds very little. Not at all like the 1980s S&L debacle where I see estimates the cost was $900 B. to the US Treasury. Hey, can I dare say it was Dems manning the Feds in the 1960s and GOPs manning the Feds in the 1980s? Or is that being too partisan? Or, does philosophy matter?

My state passed a law banning foreign insurance companies that did not register in the state capital and meet the same requirements the local insurance companies were required to meet. So this is found in Home Loans 101? I doubt it. Hey, it ought to be elementary to any MBA?


Remember that there is a symbiotic relationship between the banks, investment companies, insurance companies, and credit card vendors. The bottom line is that we will see multiple sectors of the economy fail:
--Stock market brokers will fail - too many bad mortgages
--Mortgage companies will fail - too many bad mortgages
--Credit card divisions of various banks will fail in a “cascade effect” because card holders will default in favor of paying their mortgages,
--AND some card holders will be forced into bankruptcy due to failed housing loans and credit lines that happen at the same time.

President Bush might stall this disaster until early in 2nd quarter of ‘08 with his talk of stimulus and bail-outs, but we should be ready to be hip deep in this thing by mid July.


If a 100 million taxpayers are given $800 each, that’s $80 B. The US is already in the RED thanks to GOP fiscal policies so if we pay 5% a year to borrow that from China, add another $4 B a year ad infinitum for debt service. On top of the $375 B. of the Bush43 legacy.

Notice one more thing. 1000s of relatively new homes are being bought up at auctions for 40%-50% of the original sale price. ONLY the R&Fs will be there to buy. The poor have neither capital nor credit. It is only the job of the poor to finance through taxes this windfall for the R&Fs. Let us pray. We have at least 500,000 homeless persons in the US and it looks like we’ll have at least 1,000,000 mortgaged homes in default. WHY can’t we locate the homeless people in those vacant houses? Or, what would Jesus do? Don’t worry, Christian America will burn those houses before they will put homeless people in them. Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!


Hard times are going to heighten this radicalization, and we will be treated to some very rousing oratory that demands reform, but we’re also going to be scared wit-less by homegrown terrorists who are going to think they’re doing the right thing. Reform is hard. Plunder is easy. Give us four years of hard times, and we’ll beg for a strong-willed leader to “save us.” When we’re told that the price of our salvation is obedience to an even larger government, we just might bow our heads and accept what comes. Or…we might not. If any of this sounds familiar, you may recall that I predicted mid-’08 as the start of an economic downturn that could last through 2014 the work that I’m known for. I would have preferred to be wrong about this, but we can’t always have what we want.


“Hard times” will be a ‘trickle down” phenomenon with the guys and gals on the bottom of the heap having the HARDEST times. Those at the top will come out smelling like roses. Yes, there is a disconnect here. As more and more people take off the rose colored glasses and view the real world, we can see that

TIMES THEY ARE A’CHANGING!



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 12:33 AM
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Nobody has enough money to throw at this problem. the Bush administration is talking stimulus because they've done everything else theycan to stop what's coming. I think they might be talked in to sacrificing a few virgins if they thought it would prevent this melt-down from happening on their watch.

Don is right. The Fed can borrow all the money it wants and smear it around as much as it wants, but it won't stop the burn that's about to blister our collective back sides.

That fact alone will provoke an entire generation to radicalize.



posted on Jan, 25 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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What are we going to hear from the media this time next year, when they report on the failure of hte Bush stimuluus package? chances are that the unemployment rate will be around six percent. That's not as bad as it could get, but it is a slide in the wrong direction that a lot of disconetented people are going to take advantage of.

ATS, AP, and even Below Politics serve an important function in modern America. As alternative news and discussion venues, they allow people from around the world to talk to each other on what amounts to neutral ground. As our economy worsens, we should expect to see more posters taking a pessimistic view.

I bring this to your attention because it will signal a 'realization' of that radicalization I refer to. If you want to see wha's in our future, look at what goes in in the U.K. just now. Radical voices are speaking out from all quarters of the society. They preach more than just reform.

In the aftermath of the '08 Presidential campaigns, we should expect to hear from some radicals in America when Barack Obama doesn't win the Presidency, or his party's nomination. There's a chance that old school movement leaders might sieze the moment to re-gain some of their lost glories. Are we ready for a new round of radical race politics?



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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Hi Justin,

This is my first time stopping in your section and I was pleased to see this topic.

If this topic had arisen prior to 9-11, I would be more on board with the thought process that Americans would be capable of action. However, since 9-11, I have been hit with a very dissapointing realization of my fellow Americans. This realization is firmly rooted in the fact that Americans will sell out on anything if one of two mootivations exist: 1) Revenge and/or 2) Fear.

After 9-11, we saw what.. around 90% support for our goevernment to go to war on terror? There was very little critical thinking applied to the justifications for this war or the presented "facts" to support the links to Iraq. As a country, we wanted revenge and we were fearful that such terrorism events would hit our soil again. We blindly followed the government's decision. Then once all the lies around the justifications of the war started to come to light, we still had what..around 50% of the nation vote to re-elect President Bush? That's a lot of people with their heads in the sand.

When I talk to people about the Patriot Act, the overwhelming response is "I'm not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to worry about.". There seems to be very little understanding or caring about the government gaining increased control.

While there are certainly pockets of citizens that seem to truly understand what is going on in this country, I truly believe that it is simply too late. This administration has made monumental leaps in passing unconsitutional laws that will be very effective in stomping out any "radicals" in the future and they've done so with the blessings of the majority of Americans. They were able to acheive this by using fear as a motivating factor for support.

I'll also go out on a limb here and say that the wording of our President was also very carefully orchestrated. His contant use of the word "evil" when describing the "forces" that must be stopped is a very intriguing psychological prompt. Of course we all want "evil" stopped. It is an inherent objective based on any and all religious upbringing. What kind of freak doesn't want to stop evil??

So while I do agree with you that we will be more apt to here "radical" thoughts being expressed from various pockets in our society, I doubt you'll get any true action that will amount to changing the course we are on.



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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Hello Apsaroke:

You're always welcome here. I've had the pleasure of travelling through Tennessee, and I liked it. I particularly enjoyed Memphis. There's a very outgoing quality to the place that I can still remember.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
If this topic had arisen prior to 9-11, I would be more on board with the thought process that Americans would be capable of action. However, since 9-11, I have been hit with a very dissapointing realization of my fellow Americans. This realization is firmly rooted in the fact that Americans will sell out on anything if one of two mootivations exist: 1) Revenge and/or 2) Fear.


Your statement may FEEL like its a litle traiterous, but it's not. In my opinion, President Bush should have contented himself with Afghanisan. If he had, we'd be yacking through a totally different conversation today. the simple truth is that the people of any nation would demand pay-back after they'd been attacked.

As a student of history, and a dabbler in conspiracy, I do think the conflict we now face with radical Islamists has been in the making for quie some time. Like an unwatched pot, it is finally boiling over. This problem has been with us for much longer than most American realize. It first came to my attention during the 1979 Iranian hostage crisis. I was barely 14 at he time, but stood out as a moment that I should be paying attention to.

In our present sitaution, we have suffered from a profound lack of good leadership. It's not that President Bush has failed to lead. I think he failed to slow down and take it one step at a time so that the average person could keep up with him. Like many leaders who came before him, I suspect that he merely assumed that we would follow, no matter where he went. Anyone who is a manager can tell you that it just ain't so.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
After 9-11, we saw what.. around 90% support for our goevernment to go to war on terror? There was very little critical thinking applied to the justifications for this war or the presented "facts" to support the links to Iraq. As a country, we wanted revenge and we were fearful that such terrorism events would hit our soil again. We blindly followed the government's decision. Then once all the lies around the justifications of the war started to come to light, we still had what..around 50% of the nation vote to re-elect President Bush? That's a lot of people with their heads in the sand.


My grand mother is 94. She can talk about Pearl Harbor (December 7th, 1941) like it just happened. So far as I know, she still can't be civil to anyone who might be Japanese. 9/11 was the single most devastating national event that I've experience in my lifetime. The only things that hit me half that hard were the attempt of Reagan's life, and the lossess of Challenger and Columbia (space shuttles).

We might be rich. We might be poor. Either way, most of us feel some degree of ownership when it comes to our country. When bad things happen, our reaction is to say "you're not getting away with on MY watch." We wait for the call to action, and we hope it comes. We expect prudent decision-making from our leaders. This time, we didn't get it.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
When I talk to people about the Patriot Act, the overwhelming response is "I'm not doing anything wrong, I have nothing to worry about.". There seems to be very little understanding or caring about the government gaining increased control.


Benjamin Franklin said something like, "those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither." He also said, "we have given you a Republic...if you can keep it."

The greatest conspiracy of our times would be the political agenda that seeks to 'save us' at the expense of our freedom. I beleive that. It's why I'm here on ATS. Some times, I sound like the high school history teacher who bored you to sleep, I'm a plain speaker. What you see is what you get.

It's easy to not think when times are hard. It takes no energy to to cancel a newspaper subscription or turn off the TV. It's like this in every society. That's why its good for your mental health to visit places like ATS so you can have conversations like this. We are not all of us able to see what's coming. When we do see something in our future that bothers us, we should talk to others so that we can properly judge the need to shut up, or keep digging.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
While there are certainly pockets of citizens that seem to truly understand what is going on in this country, I truly believe that it is simply too late. This administration has made monumental leaps in passing unconsitutional laws that will be very effective in stomping out any "radicals" in the future and they've done so with the blessings of the majority of Americans. They were able to acheive this by using fear as a motivating factor for support.


I'll have ot disagree with you here. I don't think its too late. Whenever I reach that moment when I truly believe that my efforts are wasted, I will pack up my toys and go home. Everything you see in this forum, in more than 20 threads, is geared towards my goal of informing people so they can make up their own minds. You'll know what I think, and why, but you'll also have all the clickable news links that you need to make up your own mind.

Since the beginning of recorded history, it has always been the case that the few had stood guard over the many.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
I'll also go out on a limb here and say that the wording of our President was also very carefully orchestrated. His contant use of the word "evil" when describing the "forces" that must be stopped is a very intriguing psychological prompt. Of course we all want "evil" stopped. It is an inherent objective based on any and all religious upbringing. What kind of freak doesn't want to stop evil??


Even the worst politician can appreciate the power of words. When spoken well, and in the right combination, they have the power to influence us that rivals any drug. Some times we forget that too much of anything is bad for you. We must never be afraid to tell truth power.


Originally posted by Apsaroke
So while I do agree with you that we will be more apt to here "radical" thoughts being expressed from various pockets in our society, I doubt you'll get any true action that will amount to changing the course we are on.


Most of the action we need won't happen until things get much worse. Until the system reaks, we won't be sufficiently motivated (as a society) to fix it. Even so, we do have an obligation to keep talking about. As you and I type these text messages, others are reading them. Perhaps we answer a few questions. If we're lucky, we change a few minds.

Most of the radicals we will hear from first will choose violence because they don't see any other way, or...or...some will see it as an easy way to recruit followers and make an easy buck.

The home grown terror cells that pop up will be lumped in with legitimate militias, and the media will have a field day exploiting our fears. Others will step forward as 'leaders' or 'prophets.' They raise "movements" that will scare us with their millions of members, and a little help from the MSM. These radicals will screech loud enough to drown out the patriots among us.

They'll succeed in making things worse, unless...unless...we know they are coming. The only way to spread the word is to have conversations like this, and THAT is no conspiracy.



posted on Jan, 27 2008 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by Justin Oldham
 


Thanks for the reply, Justin. It's very nice to run across someone who is willing to engage in a strong discussion and exchange of view points.

Sorry to hear about your trip to Memphis. We do have nicer places!! *joking*

I think the shift of this adminstration to focus on radical Islamists was to give this country it's new enemy and focus on aggression. Since the Cold War ended, we really have had nothing to focus on in that regards. I'm not going to go so far as to say it is completely unwarranted. There is a threat there, but I'm not so ready to say it is an imminent threat as it is being sold to me by this administration. Yes, we did sustain an attack on our soil. But I'm still out on the root cause of those attacks. I will venture to say that I am of the opinion that in order to justify a war and a military effort on the scale of which we do currently have, this country needed to have something "jolt" it to supoprt that kind of action. Without those attacks, this population would have never supported a "war on terror".

I love Ben Franklin's quote that you used and I agree whole-heartedly with it. Unfortunately, it seems that we have reached a point in our society where people are much happier living "comfortably and safe" than they are with living "free" and they are ready to support whatever it placed in front of them in order to ensure that comfortable and safe environment.

I'm of the opinion that this government (over a period of decades and across both aisles) have done a marvelous job of creating a "Welfare State of Mind" in many Americans - even those never having been on government assistance. When bad things happen, it appears that the initial reaction of the overall populace seems to be "When will the government fix this for me?" as opposed to "How Can I fix this?" I think this is exactly where they want the minds of Americans to be.

I consider myself to be a watcher of people and human behavior is fascinating to me. I watched the events of Hurrican Katrina and the human behavior that went with it. It was really very intriguing to me. What I found by watching the media reports was very disappointing in how a population can mentally arrive at a place where they feel unable to fend for themselves. People thirsting to death in a flood zone. That to me is amazing. People with both feet working clamoring becuase they are "trapped". People stuck on front porches waiting to be resuced as large drifting material floats by. And so on.

I don't think that people are capable of thinking for themselves anymore on a whole. And while I agree with you that it things will have to get much worse before action is taken, I'd wager that the action we will then see will be the people turning against each other before we see them tackle the real source of the problem (IE the government). You mentioned before that we are divided, and Yes, we are. Horribly divided do much that we as a society cannot even come together to face a common enemy in our own country. Our time is spent with bickerings over "liberals" vs. "conservatives" and "republicans" vs. "democrats, and most definately we stay divided on any myriad of moral issues the government tosses out to us to keep us bickering amongts ourselves. These ploys work and have worked for decades. And I see those ploys continuing to work. I don't see in human nature what you see. Perhaps it's my point of visibility.

To further extend into my warped mind (lol) I'd venture that we see such a blind support for authority due to the strength of organized religion in this country. Organized religion relies on blind following and encourages it (faith). Have faith in your leaders that they'll do the right things, etc...

Out of room for now..talk with you later. Take care.





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