UFOs Across The Timeline! Evidence Of Alien Presence? , page 2

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reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 07:26 PM by skip_brilliantine

If you are truly interested in understanding what some of these artistic elements were intended to mean, here's a good place to start:

Art & UFOs?

Only a couple of pages are in an English translation (most of the rest in Italian) but even just the English pages are worth a read.

Long story short, there is much well established religious symbolism in various eras of art history. The "sun" and "moon" were represented as driven chariots in Byzantine pieces; luminous clouds are all over Christianity-themed art. Some of the more famous "UFO" sightings in Renaissance and other art are really just the "light of God" breaking through rings in the clouds.

The site does a great job of showing many, many other similar examples of such elements and it becomes very clear how common such symbolism was in certain eras.

Not trying to be a buzzkill, but I would trust the art historians on the majority of this material. Give it a read, deny ignorance, happy new year, etc.!

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 07:36 PM by DarkWanderer

skip_brilliantine, Brilliant post. Found the links and arguemnts i was too lazy to go find

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 09:34 PM by Vanitas

Its mere coninsidence that these paintings, coins, ect look like what we beielve real 'UFO's look like.

I don't think it's a matter of "coincidence" (a suspect notion in itself) - rather, it's a matter of faulty reading of iconography, which seems to be a very widespread affliction.
(Just look at Dan Brown, who based an entire apocryphal reading of history - and a mighty fine lifestyle, I assume - on his own ignorance... I am referring to the iconography conventions traditionally used in depictions of John the Evangelist.)

There are, however, certain depictions that cannot be explained - at least not so easily - in terms of iconography. Just what those figures are supposed to represent is not clear. But then our familiarity with the imagery of other cultures, distant from ours in either space or time, is far from perfect.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by Vanitas]

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 09:37 PM by angelc01

reply to post by mikesingh

398 AD:
Byzantine Empire "A thing like a burning globe, presenting a sword, shown brilliantly in the sky over the city. It seemed almost to touch the earth from the zenith. Such a thing was never recorded to have been seen before by man."

1235:
General Yoritsume was at military camp with his unit on September 24, 1235, when a most extraordinary phenomenon was sighted. Through the night and into the early morning lights in the sky were seen swinging, circling, and looping. General Yoritsume had some astronomers working for him investigate this phenomenon. They came up with perhaps the first explanation offered for UFOs, 'The whole thing is completely natural, General, it is only the wind making the stars sway'

1239 AD:
England: From Matthew of Paris: "On July 24, 1239 at dusk, but not when the stars came out, while the air was clear, serene and shining, a great star appeared. It was like a torch, rising from the south, and flying on both sides of it, there was emitted in the height of the sky a very great light. It turned quickly towards the north in the aery region, not quickly, nor, indeed, with speed, but exactly as it wished to ascend to a place high in the air."

1254 AD:
January 1, From Matthew of Paris: At midnight in the clear and serene sky with the stars shining and the moon eight days old, there suddenly appeared in the sky a kind of large ship, elegantly shaped, and well-equipped of marvelous color. Certain monks of St. Albans saw it for a long time, as if it were painted, and a ship made of planks, but finally it began to disappear."
1492 AD, October 11, 10:00 PM:
From "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus." Christopher Columbus and Pedro Gutierrez while on the deck of the Santa Maira, observed, "a light glimmering at a great distance." It vanished and reappeared several times during the night, moving up and down, "in sudden and passing gleams." It was sighted 4 hours before land was sighted, and taken by Columbus as a sign they would soon come to land. Contributed by Thon

1742:
December 16: From an account by a Fellow of the Royal Society: England "I was crossing St James park when a light rose from behind the trees and houses, from the south and west, which at first I thought was a rocket of large size. But when it rose 20 degrees, it moved parallel to the horizon, but waved like this (the speaker drew an undulating line) and went on in the direction of north-by-east. It seemed very near. Its motion was very slow. I had it for about half a mile in view. A light flame was turned backwards by the resistance the air made to it. From one of burning charcoal. That end was a frame like bars of iron, and quite opaque in my sight. At one point on the longitudinal frame, or cylinder, it issued a train in the shape of a tail of light more bright at one point on the rod or cylinder; so that it was transparent for more than half of its length. The head of this strange object seemed about a half a degree in diameter and the tail near three degrees in length."

Just my fifty cents for Mike
The list documented in history goes on and on.

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 09:37 PM by OptionToChoose

reply to post by DarkWanderer

Well, for starters, I did not say they were drawing a mothership, I said: "a circular mothership-type appearance". "Mothership-type" is descriptive in that sentence. "Appearance" is the key word ... quite logical, if you ask me. Point is, the appearance matches the kind of large, circular ship often referred to as a mothership in today's UFO studies. That's what I meant.

As for Abydos, my point was that I read frequently how the anomalies found in ancient art that appear to be ships in the sky are rejected as such, with the explanation being that we -- today -- cannot know what the artist meant, but likely not an alien ship (and why couldn't that have been what was being expressed by the artist? are not people seeing circular and other-shaped ships today, and creating art from those experiences? I've certainly seen a few non-FAA flights overhead . . just curious). So, using this same supremely airtight logic, how, then, can we decide that those images are indeed not the images they appear to be? What law says they cannot be what they appear to be?

Now, I did check out this thread, Abydos Temple Hieroglyphics, and Byrd, the forum mod and apparently quite learned in Egyptology, seems to think that the popular image from Abydos is basically correct (the one Equinox99 posted on pg 1 of this thread). In fact, some posters were discussing how the Egyptians were able to show various flying vehicles when no other artifacts corroborate Abydos' carved images. But there was not a general consensus that flying vehicles are not carved on the ruin.

That's good enough for me, for now. If you have a more accurate representation or some facts, I'd love to have a look . . .

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 09:42 PM by Vanitas

Isn’t this proof enough that the UFO phenomenon is real?

If by "UFO" you mean exactly what the abbreviation stands for, then you are absolutely correct.

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 10:54 PM by skip_brilliantine

Originally posted by OptionToChoose
So, using this same supremely airtight logic, how, then, can we decide that those images are indeed not the images they appear to be? What law says they cannot be what they appear to be?

OptionToChoose, art is most certainly open to interpretation in many senses. In the case of many of the referenced pieces of art, though, we do know, historically, that the artists were continuing down a well-trod path of religious symbolism... I am curious whether you looked into the link I provided and whether it made any sense to you.

The religious paintings in particular certainly stir the imagination, as they were intended to. But no matter what those people were seeing in the sky, you an be sure that what they were intending to convey in these paintings, however abstractly or symbolically, was all about God.

Did they see UFOs? I bet they did. And Angelc01, that was a great collection of anecdotes. I believe in alien visitation. But I can't look at a lot of these works of art as proof of them, not when I have investigated the beliefs and practices of those artists and their times and understand what those oddities are intended to reference.

“Meanwhile, the average man had become progressively less able to recognize the subjects, or understand the meaning of the works of art of the past. Fewer people had read the classics of Greek and Roman literature, and relatively few people read the Bible with the same diligence that their parents had done. It comes as a shock to an elderly man to find how many biblical references have become completely incomprehensible to the present generation.”

Kenneth Clark
(introduction to"Dictionary of Subjects and Symbols in Art" by James Hall)

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 11:10 PM by Nohup

I think it would be a mistake to interpret a lot of old descriptions, images and symbols from our modern perspective. It's not as if these people were striving for one hundred percent accuracy and photorealism. They were poets and artists. If some creative artist draws a boat sailing in the sky, are we supposed to believe that in the past boats used to be able to fly? Or that somebody had imagination? Gee, what a concept.

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 11:25 PM by mikesingh

Originally posted by skip_brilliantine
"UFO" sightings in Renaissance and other art are really just the "light of God" breaking through rings in the clouds.

Thanks for that link, skip, which made a pretty interesting read!

Having said that, what exactly was 'light of God'? And then we have 'God' coming down from heaven on pillars of fire, with the sound of thunder and mentioned in the Bible. Now God isn't a physical entity. It is concept or something that is omnipresent and all encompassing. He doesn't need to come down to Earth with all the physical characteristics of a rocket or spaceship!

Let's take a hypothetical example....

Let's presume that Apollo 13, instead of returning back to Earth, attempts to land on another planet with it's retro rockets firing to break its speed. Now if that planet was having a civilization in the same evolutionary period that we were thousands of years ago, what would the natives have thought? They would see the astronauts emerging from the capsule after a fiery descent, dressed up in strange looking attire with helmets and spacesuits.

This would have been beyond their understanding and comprehension. They would have thought of these astronauts as Gods. And worshiped them as such. They would have painted them on walls and later written about them for coming generations.

Let's take the Hopi Indians for example. Hopi Prophecy speaks of the return of the Blue Kachina - Star People and Star Knowledge - at the end of this cycle of time. Imagination?

Kachina dolls
Courtesy: crystalinks

Kachina dolls were carved out of wood by the Zuni and Hopi tribes and are generally clothed in masks and costumes to look like the men who dressed up as Kachina spirits.

The Kachinas, or Gods, were beings of a great might and power to the Native Americans. They were known to come down to Earth and help the native Americans tend their fields brining wisdom about agriculture, law and government. They physically interacted with the people themselves.
www.crystalinks.com...

This is only one example of the extraterrestrial connection. There are many tribes with similar traditions and beliefs the world over. Could all this be imagination?

reply posted on 2-1-2008 @ 11:43 PM by skip_brilliantine

reply to post by mikesingh

Mike, I also find the oral tradition, mythology, and legends of ancient cultures completely fascinating. I would just say that – to follow what Nohup and earlier, Mindless, has said – that we shouldn't do those cultures the disservice of assuming they had no artistic imagination, that anything we study of theirs should be treated as journalism.

After a few more thousand years, an ancient Justice League comic could possibly come across as a newspaper... but that doesn't make Wonder Woman or Superman any more real in our time.

All those people had as vivid imaginations and incredible storytelling skills as we do today. They knew how to create characters and speak in allegory. That doesn't mean that they didn't describe things they really saw or experienced, they did, but we don't always know (from our limited, far-future perspective) which was which for them.

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 10:20 AM by OptionToChoose

reply to post by skip_brilliantine

Let me try it this way .. Granted, there may have developed a tradition of including these types of images in ancient art as history progressed. What are the odds that so many examples from so many different periods of antiquity from various locations across the (then unreachable) globe would so seamlessly match the images we see now in candid (albeit sometimes blurry) snapshots, videos, and NASA footage?

Not, did they wish to represent God in the sky, but, why did the representations appear in UFO (today's terminology) form? The intent, as I ponder it, seems irrelevant, as intent does not appear on canvas/walls/reliefs/etc. Interpretation of intent appears on the substrate, and that by the artist's hand. Again, as an artist, I am curious as to why the saucer shape we chase today was chosen back then.

As an artist, I paint what I see.

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 10:41 AM by please_takemyrights

Originally posted by skip_brilliantine
...Long story short, there is much well established religious symbolism in various eras of art history. The "sun" and "moon" were represented as driven chariots in Byzantine pieces; luminous clouds are all over Christianity-themed art. Some of the more famous "UFO" sightings in Renaissance and other art are really just the "light of God" breaking through rings in the clouds....

Great site!
What it really seems to prove is that there are numerous examples throughout art showing these oddities, perhaps nothing more. (perhaps it does nothing to disprove the 'UFOs in Art' theory)

I like the many examples of the sun and moon. The site shows many examples of human forms in the sun and moon. But instead of counting this as disproving a UFO sighting, perhaps we should ask ourselves why lifeforms are being drawn inside the sun and moon in the first place.

A high resolution close up of the 'UFO' in the Carlo Crivelli painting, “The annunciation” shows it is not a UFO, but rather some clouds with angels flying in circles and beams of light shining down. Proof that it's NOT a UFO, but the appearance of God.. a 'heavenly portal', if you will. Hmm, heaven? Portal? Space? Stargate? Smoke from the UFO's engines? Hmmmm.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that NONE of the examples given in the thread and at that website were authored by anyone who was alive even remotely near Biblical times. I think it's just silly to take any hints or examples from artwork made by someone who wasn't there in the first place, and whose basis of information is tradition, stories, the Bible, and previous artwork. I refer you to the children's game 'telephone'.

Finally, let's just assume for a moment that UFOs/Aliens DID visit during Biblical times, or other times as well. Let's also assume they were not merely innocent bystanders, but interacted with the humans on Earth. If the humans recognized that they were life forms, perhaps similar to humans, and they often arrived from the sky with bright lights, clouds/smoke, etc... maybe the way the UFOs are represented in the works of art are not that far off, with the artists having taken only minor artistic license.

One more wild example: 'God' really isn't 'God', but the head alien (military commander, ambassador, cult leader?) who Earthlings came to revere, praise and worship. Some may know he came from the sky and so represented his arrival as a human-like form in the clouds. And maybe 'heaven' is just 'God's' promise to take all the good little humans up with him off of this 'God-forsaken' rock floating in the middle of a cold universe.

Now I refer you to many episodes of Star Trek, Stargate and others.

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 11:39 AM by mikesingh

reply to post by please_takemyrights

TMR, that was a brilliant post!!

A star for you. Can't give you more. Darn! Why is only one allowed?? I agree with ALL your points! Or are you a mind reader?

Cheers!

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 02:26 PM by never_tell

here's a link to a lot of pictures...click here

i think the historical references are the most telling. At a time that god/alien existance wasn't challenged, descriptions and lore was accepted by all as fact... it's only since we've had "debunkers" that the whole thing has been drawn into question...

that said, have you read Graham Hancock's last book "Supernatural"... in it he travels to south america to under go a "spiritual" ceremony that involves the injestion of Ayahuasca. Ultimately he tries to get to the bottom of ancient cave paitings and finds supposes that shaman injesting like substances hallucinate and see "ufos" and then draw them... so he goes on his own vision quest... the results and his recollection will astound you... excellent read on the subject if you haven't already... here's a link to a synopsis click here

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 02:56 PM by anti72

Originally posted by sherpa
I found the painting of the Madonna and Saint Giovannino intrigueing.

So did a little research, there does not seem to be anything definitive on this but I think most people agree it is part of the painting, ie it was put there by the artist.

One line of thought seems to be that Saint Giovannino was one of Leonado DeVincis students and Saint Giovannino wanted to make a dedication via a representation of one of his war machines.

This being said I doubt if we will ever know as the artist is dead, he may well have been painting a UFO.

I think it looks pretty cool.

right, I read that somewhere , too.

the dropa stones , the Abydos glyphs, Ezechiel machine´
..all debunked.

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 02:59 PM by leira7

reply to post by never_tell

Excellent link! Wow, some of those pictures I had seen before, but I never realized there were so many. Very interesting stuff. I can see how some of the cave painting could be misinterpreted but there were some pictures that I feel could not be disputed, (the Japanese one with the guys in the saucers shooting stuff). Very interesting.

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 06:19 PM by mel1962

reply to post by mikesingh

Great Post!

I have always been fascinated by the anciet tales of UFO's, but I really got freaked out by the pictures and accounts of the UFO's in Medieval Europe. Especially 1561 Nuremburg!

Medieval UFO Accounts!

Nuremburg really freaks me out, because it reminds me of a similiar experience I had with UFO's about 10 years ago and the accounts and picture are so descriptive of a major UFO Flap!

Scarry Nuremburg Picture - Don't look if easily frightened!

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 06:43 PM by DarkWanderer

mel1962, them pictures clearly dont show UFO's... There not scary at all! Its complete nonesence!

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 07:33 PM by mel1962

Originally posted by DarkWanderer
mel1962, them pictures clearly dont show UFO's... There not scary at all! Its complete nonesence!

Well, than read the accounts, they are quite chilling!

Besides, your opinion is your opinion, read the account and than check out the picture before judging and they are not "nonesense", but maybe nonsense in your eyes!

reply posted on 3-1-2008 @ 10:24 PM by Eddy_P

Originally posted by mikesinghSo, is the UFO phenomenon a myth or is there an element of truth in it?
The Evidence: Cave Paintings

This cave painting is c.10,000 BC and is from Val Camonica, Italy. It appears to depict two beings in protective suits holding strange implements.Courtesy: Crystalinks