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Your Thoughts Can't Die According to Physics

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posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by polomontana
Your thoughts are frequencies


Thoughts are not frequencies. I have no idea how this notion came to be.


It's just like radio waves.


No it's not. There is no foundation for this comparison.


You are a disembodied frequency when you die


No, you are a dead corpse.


It's basic physics.


No, it has nothing to do with physics.




posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by sigung86

I guess I'm not as literal as you. There is still much in the bible to condone the afterlife.

Perhaps you are correct in that what we know and understand as the "I" ceases to exist, but there still might be something to continue on with afterward in a different/altered form... Otherwise, why the whole Revelations "thang"?


Thats the whole purpose of the Ressurection. If there was a part of us that was already immortal and lived forever, why would we need the ressurection hope?



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by sigung86
I guess I don't understand the jeering and large amount of falderah against the belief. There are lots of people who believe that thought process and the manner in which it is directed can directly affect your life outcomes. I've experimented with that process, and although I have no meters, gauges or other measuring devices (than my own subjective requirements), I've seen enough positive and verifiable outcomes to form a belief in the effect. Before you say anything about perception, understand that I am speaking of material gains from the process, and not simply an enhanced personal perception of some metaphysical mood enhancement.

Yeah, there are definite SOCIAL effects from the way you think and behave toward others. And these social effects can have profound consequences.

For instance, your solid work ethic impresses your boss and he gives you a big promotion.
You come up with an interesting plan to do something. Suddenly the industry changes drastically, and your plan is the only thing that keeps the company from going bankrupt and making 100 people lose their jobs.

Or, your suave devil-may-care attitude woos the bosses daughter, and your boss fires you when he catches you fooling around with her.
You never get promoted and never put forward that plan, and when the industry changes, the company goes belly-up, costing 100 people their jobs.



In the same line of thought, life as I understand it is certainly a short thing or process, as I am not a Giant Redwood Tree. Therefore, it provides me some comfort to think that I will go on after death in the Lutheran, Baptist, generally Christian or Tibetan Monastic sort of manner and will not simply wink out of existence at the moment of death. This provides me a reason to keep on keepin' on and doing things to improve my lot and the lot of my fellow man. Simple... Continuity is a motivator for me. If I am right then I continue and get more chances to do more good things and experience the life that I have come to love in the past 60 years. If I am wrong, then at the moment of death I wink out of existence and... That's that, so to speak. Either way, there's no harm and no foul.

Yeah. From a certain point of view, you could say that religions’ “afterlife” is a way of simplifying the notion that we have a profound effect on the world around us that remains even after we die.



The really unfortunate thing for the scientists who speak so assuredly of a lack of afterlife and all the attendent "gibberish" that goes with it, is that with the current state of scientific affairs, you draw forth and make certain statements that tend to try and shatter the hope of the folks who aren't quite so sure.

No, not at all.



You don't mind trying to depress the dreamer, based on all that you can currently measure and understand within a measurable and "palpable" framework.

Which is very big and very solid.



That may not be so bad, but as I recall it, by scientific proscription, man could not fly

You recall incorrectly.

Nobody ever said scientifically that flight is impossible. We just weren’t sure when we would have technology good enough to do it. I suppose a lot of experts in the Wrights’ time thought we couldn’t fly with the technology we had. And then of course the Wright brothers proved them wrong.



I'm not poohpoohing science or the scientific method, but it seems to me that it ought to be open to all types of evidence until the ability to measure and prove or disprove a belief, or possibility, exists.

Science is open to all kinds of evidence. A large part of science is examining said evidence and trying to determine why it works when we think it shouldn’t.



Just some thoughts....

Much appreciated, so I’ve added my own.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by MurderSmurf]



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by mrwupy

In this tech age, your thoughts will never be lost, as long as you share them with other people.

Slowly but surely we are all becoming immortal.


Reminds me of the Greek Archives. Their stories and philosophies live on today because they chose to write them down. But, that was limited to only intellectuals at that time. Today, nearly any person has the ability to become immortal and to be remembered by his or her family for generations to come.

Once technology catches up with the human brain we'll be able to live forever by downloading everthing we've ever known to a hard drive, cloning our selves from DNA and re-uploading our memories to our new bodies.

Ah, science. Scary stuff.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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Another point is this:
Something can't become eternal, it either is and has always been or it isn't eternal. Eternity doesn't have a starting point. Therefore for a thought to be 'created' by an individual it has a starting point therefore it isn't eternal and must end.

Of course, this assumes that the thought didn't already exist and the individual didn't bring the pre-existing thought to life somehow - like a tv tuned to a specific station, but then who is doing the selecting? Beats me, and it makes my head hurt.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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It's a cool idea except your thoughts are not a frequency. Do you stop thinking when the phone rings?



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 02:43 PM
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"Kenneth, what is the frequency?"

Gasp! Shades of Dan Rather! I wonder what Dan was thinking at the time?



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Radio waves are photons.

Your thoughts are not photons.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 05:00 PM
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I agree that our thoughts can't die like physical-beings. Who has ever seen or heard of a thought that can die?

[edit on 2-1-2008 by ahuman]



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 05:19 PM
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There is supposedly supposed to be a place where you can retrieve any thought ever thought by any human, alien or organism in all of time--this is called the Akashic Records or the collective unconscious.


This is how Edgar Cayce got all of his information; and for those who don't' know who Cayce is, he is one of the most well known and (most) accurate psychic (The Sleeping Prophet) to ever walk this Earth.


I believe thoughts are never lost but are stored in higher conscious levels of the mind and soul/spirit.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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All this is real.

Everything in the entire universe is made of the same substance. Protons and Electrons and Neutrons. All of those subatomic particles deal with forces that attract and repel, and every element is made of them. The stuff your body is made of, is that same stuff Earth and all objects are made of. Everything has life, and everything has an attraction and repulsion, even if its a weak one.

It has been shown somewhere, I can't find the source, but in the vacuume of space, all objects no matter what material they are made of have a slight attraction and repulsion. This is because the entire universe and everything is basicaly made of infintie numbers of subatomic forces that work simply like magnetic force. The only difference between anything is the strength of their combined forces.

Everything has an attraction and repulsion, this "force" comes in two flavors. Physical and Non-Physical.... JUST LIKE A MAGNET. A magnet is both physical and non-physical, and its non-physical self is extra strong! With a stronger magnet, you can change the poles of the magnet, and even DEMAGNETIZE the magnet, so that it is only physical. In the end, you can even REMAGNETIZE the magnet, so that it comes back to life.

Humans can do the same. In fact it happens daily!! You know how many people are saved from death? Just so happens you have to pump electricity into them to get their heart to start beating again... hmmm...what is electricity? Electrons? God bless defibrillation.

en.wikipedia.org...

The point is.... people think magnetic force is created by the magnet's material. The fact is, its not created by the magnets material, it is only trapped by the magnets material. It escapes into the ONE universe when it is FREE.


...i will post more when i get back..

[edit on 2-1-2008 by ALLis0NE]



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 06:06 PM
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hey don't think anyone brought this up yet
but it sounds similar to what your talking about

en.wikipedia.org...

if our brains work at the quantum level then your thoughts
have always and will always exist

they are not restricted by time as we know it

well they started just after the bigbang
when the wave function of our universe collapsed to
create everything we see (and don't see)
because the universe started off small than a subatomic partical
there was only room for one wave function

most scientists believe Schrödinger's cat is ether dead or alive but not both

that also create universes parallel to ours
which has been proven

en.wikipedia.org...


but I'm getting a little off topic
anyway it would help explane a bunch of things
like ESP and telepathy
which some scientists believe they have also proven too

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by Sparky63
 



That's the whole poiNT Sparky63. The old Testament material you quoted talks about an ending. So... Will we ever meet Adam or Eve? While the New Testament specifically works the born again believer being reborn at judgment angle. So, we either become nothingness in the graveyard of humanity... Or at some point, in spite of your and my best efforts, we come back to life as some continuation of ourselves (at least in my understanding of the process) and either go to Heaven or Hell. It doesn't work both ways.

Beside that my friend, I'm just ruminating. As I said, it does my heart, and my head good to think that at some point I will be back, and I am trying for the side that gets the harps and wings.

Thaks very much for the brain exercise. I appreciate it much.


[edit on 2-1-2008 by sigung86]



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by polomontana
Your thoughts are frequencies, so the question is how can your thoughts die?

Wrong. Something can't be a property.


Originally posted by polomontana
When you die, your thoughts live on with the energy associated with your body.

I doubt you have evidence of this.


Originally posted by polomontana
It's just like radio waves. These signals don't just dissapear and neither do our thoughts. You are your thoughts. These thoughts can't die, they have to live on just like radio signals.

Wrong. Radio waves are photons, thoughts are not. Signals degrade and light can be absorbed.


Originally posted by polomontana
It's basic physics. Frequencies don't die, even when your material brain dies. You can't transmit anymore frequencies as John Doe but the thoughts you had why you were in the body still exists even when the body dies.

No, it's not.


Originally posted by polomontana
The first radio transmissions are not dead, there still out there and they can be picked up, just not with a broken radio.

I'd love to see you try and pick it up with a radio.


Originally posted by polomontana
That's just like our thoughts. These thoughts can be transmitted through a medium but not your body when you die.

Radio waves are light and do not need a medium.



reply to post by ALLis0NE
 


Photons are not made of electrons, protons, or neutrons.

Magnetic behavior is caused by the angular momentum of electrons.


reply to post by loki42
 


The double-slit experiment does not do anything to create or prove the existence of parallel universes.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 11:29 PM
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As I grew up and was taught that energy cannot be destroyed only changed, I struggled with the "thought" that when I think therefore I create or is it alter energy? I believe a thought is a form of energy and if energy cannot be destroyed what the bloody hell happens to that "thought".

I believe science is the answer to all our questions and that religion was created to dumb it down for the uneducated or unevolved. The answer is a lot more complicated than I could ever comprehend at this point in my existence maybe in the next couple of lives I might get a grasp on it.

Meanwhile I go with thoughts are an energy that cannot be destroyed buggered if I know where they go or where they are contained etc.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 11:41 PM
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Thoughts are electrical impulses. Radio waves are...waves. So directly, I would say that the theory isn't sound, but I suppose it could be true indirectly. Perhaps we'll find out eventually that thoughts, or just electrical charges in general, have an effect on some medium that can be observed or preserved.

Even if your thoughts did live on though, thoughts and consciousness aren't the same thing. Perhaps the thought 'That's a lovely shade of red,' will float on through space, but in no way does the existence of the thought suggest that there is any awareness behind it. Just like with radio waves all you get is the message, not the person who said it.



posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 11:53 PM
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Very interesting thread. I'd like to see some links to verifiable research from reliable sources if anyone has them.

But I have a question, aren't our thoughts and memory actually controlled and processed by the neurons in our brain? I just read this a few days ago but don't remember the the details. But if our thoughts and memory (what actually defines the individual) are based on physical neurons, what happens when those neurons entropy as the laws of physics also state?

I'm interested in hearing anyone's opinion on this. Fascinating subject, OP!
And just to clarify, I already believe in an afterlife (but not paste lives) and am curious how this could be scientifically related.

Also, regarding the analogy to frequencies: Don't those eventually fade out? The frequencies and transmissions don't last forever just floating around somewhere in the universe if I'm remotely understanding this correctly. It's interesting but I can't help but be skeptical.

[edit on 1/3/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by Sparky63
Psalm 146:4 (New American Standard Bible)

4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.


Look at the context and use the assistance of Greek lexicons which better explain this verse. It is not referring to annihilation of the conscious. It is telling us not to place our trust (faith, reverence) in mortal men (remember kings were often deified in antiquity) because they die too and do not have the power to offer eternal life.

Here is a more accurate translation: "Do not put your trust in princes [again, the deification of kings was common in antiquity), in mortal men [they're only human, too!], who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground [they return to dust just like the rest of us] and on that day their plans come to nothing [all their military achievements and laws are at the mercy of their successor].


Ecclesiastes 9:10 (New American Standard Bible)

10Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.


Two things to note:

1) Ecclesiastes is classified in the Writings and does not use precise literalism like the Laws and Prophets.
2) This one passage seems to contradict everything else we are told about an afterlife in the Bible. And of course, it is always dangerous to isolate verses.

But what was Solomon saying? Is he teaching annihilation? Not so fast! Just like the Book of Job (which is quoted in this passage), Ecclesiastes is a comparison of ideas with one personality displaying a belief in God while the other does not believe in God. This passage is simply a lamentation of an atheist who is pondering the possibility this life is all there is.

[edit on 1/3/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 02:58 AM
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Originally posted by Johnmike
Photons are not made of electrons, protons, or neutrons.


Electrons, protons, and neutrons are the ingredients of physical reality. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? You can't have a chicken unless it hatched from an egg. The egg, was simply the correct mixture of substances, cooked at the right temperature to create life. Just like baking a cake. What came first, the cake or the ingredients for the cake? It's that simple..

Photons are the same energy that created electrons. Photons are just moving at higher speeds. Actually photons are able to turn into electrons in certain conditions. The substance that electrons protons and neutrons are made of, are the non-physical part of the universe. That is the dimension we can not see... the part of a permanent magnet that we can not see.




Originally posted by Johnmike
Magnetic behavior is caused by the angular momentum of electrons.


Even Newton knew. "Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it." First law of motion. What gave the electron "angular momentum"? What is keeping it moving at all times? An "electric charge". Electrons have electric charges, so do protons. If electrons are "electricity" then what is giving the proton its "electric charge"? Why does that electric charge always have a magnetic field? How come neutrinos are spinning, but they don't have electric charges? Whats making it spin? Magnetic force, it is in everything.


Human body's work like electronics do. We have two separate power supply systems, one is our Respiratory System and the other our Digestive System. Our digestive acts exactly like a zinc/acid battery. Except, we can gain energy from a lot of different objects, not just zinc. Our acid is stronger. Since everything physical is made of electrons and protons and neutrons, when you eat, your acid breaks apart those elements, and uses them for electricity to power your body. It runs the electricity from foods through your specially designed wires called the Circulatory System. Your lungs are attached to the Circulatory System too. The lungs are another form of extracting free energy from the air. We have physical systems that can split oxygen and more, and use it as power for our bodies. Especially with powerful water. Hydrogen is POWERFUL.

Unfortunately, because of the LACK OF KNOWLEDGE to the human race, most human bodies are under powered. They use half a brain, and not all of it. We are like a light bulb rated at 12 volts but only getting 6. To gain physical and mental powers you must eat right, and LEARN EVERYTHING. INCLUDING EVERY SCIENCE. Become illuminated, I will help you. KNOWLEDGE IS REALLY POWER. What if i told you your brain stores memories exactly like a computer hard drive? Its all magnetic, north, south, north, south, in different patterns to create 0, 1, 0, 1, also meaning off, on, off, on or even no, yes, no, yes. Its all magnetic in nature.

When you learn something its like collecting magnetic force. As the knowledge passes from the pages of a book, or the images from a monitor... it flips poles of magnets in your brain which changes your soul to a different frequency. These flipped poles represent the information you have learned. The more you learn, the more magnetic force you have collected and joined with your soul. That makes you more powerful. Technically, knowledge is the same force that creates electricity, so it is pretty much LITERALY TRUE that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. B.t.w. digital video cameras collect knowledge too. They have a lenses and a magnetic storage like memory. Just like human eyes and brain. Ask yourself, why would someone want to purposely teach fake and untrue things? Why would someone want you to sleep less? Less power.

...to be continued.



posted on Jan, 3 2008 @ 05:20 AM
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Hi There,

ALLisONE makes interesting comments and speculations...

Electrons, protons, and neutrons are the ingredients of physical reality.


I would add that each of these ingredients are nodes from which we gain our perception of 'physicality' by the way these ingredients interact with each other. Following Newton's 3rd Law of Motion - for every action there is a equal opposite reaction - physicality arises as a result of opposing like electric charges repeling each other. These ingredients that make up the atom structure exist in a push/pull relationship with each other. The electron wants to fall into the atom's nucleus attracted to the positive charge of the proton, but the presence and negative charge of the neutron will not allow this for it repels the electron. Thus atomic structures are covalent (attraction/repulsion stability) relationships that produce 'physicality'. It is what makes objects solid, and why your fingers do not pass through the keyboard whilst typing out your posts.

Prior to the atomic ingredients are the sub-quantum ingredients of quarks, and whatever ingredients make up the quarks is currently unknown, but theoretics speculate with String theory to account for them. Ultimately, however, the primary foundation of it all will be 'energy', and that all the ingredients are simply unitisations (condensations) of energy arising out of the vortices of kinetic energy compressions.

My question to ALLisONE is...how are things stored in the brain, for instance, memory?



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