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To all Believers of the Official Story:

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posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar

Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by ULTIMA1
 


My point is the Bush administration would want their version bolstered with anything they consider supports their assertions.


Honest question: if the dems win the White House this year, will you hold the same political beliefs? Meaning, they too are part of the conspiracy you think has taken place?


You'll notice that almost everyone in, around or near must be involved in the conspiracy if ultima is right
Thats a lot of real quiet people




posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by SlightlyAbovePar
Honest question: if the dems win the White House this year, will you hold the same political beliefs? Meaning, they too are part of the conspiracy you think has taken place?


Really the only conspiracy so far is the terrorist planning and hijacking planes.

So the official story is the only real conspiracy theory so far.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by ULTIMA1]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 05:07 PM
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I think he means the conspiracy you are referring to. The fact that the government is covering up "something". This would make them complicit.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 


Can you answer my original question? How did the FBI arrive to investigate before any local first responders got to the site?



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by jfj123
 


Can you answer my original question? How did the FBI arrive to investigate before any local first responders got to the site?


Show me your source info, and I'll do my best to answer your question.

Thanks.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by jfj123
 



Originally posted by CaptainObvious

This clearly shows how much you pay attention to my posts and the facts.

Please note that volunteers were there AFTER. I repeat AFTER the FBI concluded their investigation. I offered you links to this on previous posts.

The debris that was collected and placed in the open top container were not used for investigative pourposes.

What don't you understand?


In all fairness to your legitimate question and necessary qualification by me, the above appeared on the Shanksville discussion. It has not yet been satifactorily answered on the Shanksville discussion by the above poster.

If I addressed the question directly to you instead, I do apologize.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by OrionStars
 

And a tempt to dodge the question is made.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 09:00 PM
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Facts the CT guys don't see any fact whatsoever that would support the official story.

Fact: Multiple eyewitnesses and videos that show planes hitting the towers. People died on the plane, ask their families.

CT guys: eyewitnesses can be bought and videos and pics fake.

SPIN: but if one guy is willing to come out to support their theory, then this guy has the highest credibility in the world.

If one pic or one frame of a video out of a hundred support my theory then that's the only pic or part of the video that is legit.


Fact: There is still frames of a security camera that shows an airliner crashing into the Pentagon, and some parts where recovered. People died on those planes ask their families.

CT guys: That's is no proof! We want the entire plane and every single serial number must match the records.

Spin: There is evidence that I'm not willing to validate. Now that I have invalidated your evidence you got nothing against my conspiracy.

Fact: A plane crashed in Shanksville. People died ask their families, there is record, voice recorders, flight data. People saw a plane.

CT: No one saw it, no debris but wait 2 different debri fields, and an engine here other one there, plane is to big for the hole, da da da da.

This one is the one that totally discredit most CT guys IMO. There is only few people that saw the plane on its final seconds, well then they have to be lying right? But again one or 2 guys come to support their theory, their credibility is unquestionable.

CT guys I come to found out by researching a couple of website that they go great lenghts to discredit anyone no matte what tactics. They harrass people, post their name and addresses in the web so people can bother them. Call family members of the deceased to ask them stupid question, and when they decline to answer then they accused them of being covering up too. Totally despicable coming from people that supposedly want to uncover the truth.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by Bunch
 


Where is the evidece that proves any planes actually hit anything? Huge fireballs and smoke blocking everyone's vision is not proof any planes hit anything.

I can see where people would think that happened, considering they say they saw planes headed in that direction. However, there is not enough physical evidential proof stating that is what actually happened. There is no physcial evidence any passengers or luggage were on any planes alleged to have impacted anything.

If people want us to believe passengers were on any alleged planes, then please provide enough physical evidence, which proves that beyond a reasonable doubt. Passenger lists are no proof. The only proof of questioning families is alleged passengers' families swear they believe their loved ones are deceased due to airplane crashes.

How many funerals for alleged airplane passengers actually took place? Or were they memorial services instead? Memorial services normally mean the deceased was declared dead but body or remains never found and returned.

If it were me, in the case of 9/11, and someone showed up at my door with unrecognizable remains, I would ask how I know that is my loved one. I would insist on testing at the lab of my choice, to ensure I am actually accepting the remains of my loved one(s), and not someone else's loved one or Bambi's mother etc.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by OrionStars
 


I'm sorry but if you are not willing to accept the evidence that exist that doesn't mean it doesn't.

Eyewitnesses, family members of the deceased, flight data, cockpit recorders, video, pics, plane parts, phone call made by people on the planes. Those are all facts.

What the CT people have? hollograms, no planes? Please.

By one hand Ct's try to prove the government is so dumb that they can not cover it up, but at the same time they are so smart to do it in a way much more complicated!



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by OrionStars

I am only preliminarily set in conclusion because I have been forensically investigating 9/11 for 6+ years. So how much actual effort have you placed into investigating any inconsistencies in the "official" reports? Any? Because you do not post as if you have.


Well actually I have made a bunch of posts on other 9/11 topics. I have focused most of those posts on what I’m experienced at, such as a post that went on for a good time that stated the planes could not go over 400 mph and other fallacies about flying as I see them. I have followed most 9/11 posts without debating every turn to get different perspectives from the many different sides.

I also compared the pictures of the engine and landing gear parts at the Pentagon crash with other like parts to match them as the correct parts. This too is from my experience in building jet engines years ago, and my long time understanding of all the major systems on an aircraft.

I have dabbled into the structural integrity some but it is not my forte. If you have noticed, I have not been debating you hypothesis as much as some the factors you have brought up. So even if your hypothesis is correct those factors I have addressed are not.

So that is about it, but I’m not as deeply involved as you are nor do I really want to be.


[edit on 7-1-2008 by Xtrozero]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by jfj123
You'll notice that almost everyone in, around or near must be involved in the conspiracy if ultima is right
Thats a lot of real quiet people


I have stated such in as theses conspiracies grow so does the branches of all who would need to be involved and the exponentially difficulty level ever increasing to pull it off.

It is kind of like the NWO as in if you are not on their side already in the know then you are part of a very small minority left in the world.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by Bunch
 


What evidence? Some photos of undetermined origin? Videos of undetermined origin? People stating they have not heard from their loved ones since 9/11? Hearsay from others claiming to be eyewitnesses with no evidence to provide other their word? How does any of that substantially, evidentially prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt?



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by OrionStars
Since you are so certain of the speed, why don't you prove any alleged 767s were going 500 mph when allegedly impacting two twin towers?


Actually there is a rather large post on this and I have a number of posts there, but hey...

Your race car is a poor example for it is trying to stay on a track an so is limited by that where a plane is not on any track and it can make the turn any size as needed.

Do you know how far/long it takes a plane to accelerate from 250 to 500 in a slight descent? Not very far at all and it looks like they had 10s of miles to do it in.

The planes were also very capable to reach that speed, and from the frame rate they were well over 400mph.

Once again I debate fuzzy logic and not the hypothsis. It is up to you to prove they didn't or did hit the building. Why are you so convienced they didn't hit?



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by OrionStars
Well, flight simulators ain't physical reality. That is for certain.


Well you sit in a REAL cockpit, as real as the one on the aircraft. It is not a copy of the aircraft, it is the aircraft. All the instruments are the real thing and function as the real thing. The feel of the flight controls feels as real as the real plane.

BTW the flight controls on the real plane have a fake feel since they are all hydraulic controlled the actual feel is faked so the pilots do not over correct.

My friend this is a great example of fact that you are wasting your time in debating. What I say on this is fact and you need to figure if the hijackers used it or someting along the lines of your hypothsis.

If you want me to prove it I suggest you just visit a sim sometime and all will be proven.

[edit on 7-1-2008 by Xtrozero]



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 11:59 PM
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reply to post by Bunch
 


They are the disinfo methinks. Think about it. It would work.
Come up with this completely off the wall story (to the general public), it gains a following by those more likely to gravitate to such theories (the so-called "tin foil hat" crowd) and presto it discredits by proxy any questions someone may have.
Seeing as to any questions are grouped with the more "out there" questions in the minds of most people.



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


It is not real. That is why they call it simulation. There is never an equal human made substitute for physical reality.



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by OrionStars
reply to post by Bunch
 


What evidence? Some photos of undetermined origin? Videos of undetermined origin?


Yes those! What about the live feeds of that day? Were all those fake too? How many people you need to do that? In every single TV broadcats station that was live at the time? Photos that where taken by numerous people from different angles, are they on it too? How many people you think are involved? 10, 100, 1000?



People stating they have not heard from their loved ones since 9/11? Hearsay from others claiming to be eyewitnesses with no evidence to provide other their word?


Yes people that have lost loved ones, do a quick google search and you will find out that a lot of people died that day, is amazing to me that for all the forensic work that you have done you have forgot most basic element of this tragedy that it was an HUMAN tragedy.

And please don't even go to hearsay, you guys, the CT's live and thrive on hearsay! That so and so heard explosion, that so and so heard weird noises the week before! Is that proof? Common, not acceptable to you not acceptable for me.



How does any of that substantially, evidentially prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt?


It doesn't disprove anything beyond reasonable doubt, but the story as it stand holds it own. Hijackers, planes, buildings came down because of it.

Let's compare that to a massive operation that would have included thousands of personnel involved in a massive cover up, hundreds of assets and resources need it to accomplish it and all perpetrated by Americans to Americans. And no one will say nothing about it!

Like I said earlier some of you guys want to paint the government as dumb for not being able to cover it up, but at the same time accusing them of doing something much much more complicated, that involved hundreds of people from many agencies, local and federal and not even one person, one email, one phone call would be recorded to uncovered the conspiracy.

Talking about proof.



[edit on 8-1-2008 by Bunch]



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by OrionStars
It is not real. That is why they call it simulation. There is never an equal human made substitute for physical reality.


The deal is you do not fly a plane like someone drives their car. I explained the differences while back in another post. The whole point here is that it is real enough to do nothing but simulator training and then go fly and do well.

The other aspect to all this is the level of training needed to fly a plane that is already in the air and then only fly it into the towers. That level of experience needed to do this successfully is much lower.

You are arguing a point that you know little about and one that might or might not play into your hypothesis.

As I have said this is all fact as to the capabilities of flight simulators. As I write this I am one hour away from going into one. Please except this as truth and apply it to your hypothesis as you see fit.

You are wasting your time continuing to argue this point, and that time would be more valuable on other areas of your hypothesis.

As example, maybe those Muslims were terrorist and were trained to fly, but from the start they were setup to take the fall even though they never got on an airplane and a airplane never hit the tower, just cruise missiles and explosives to simulate that it all happened as in the official report.

See how easy it is….


[edit on 8-1-2008 by Xtrozero]



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Bunch
[Let's compare that to a massive operation that would have included thousands of personnel involved in a massive cover up, hundreds of assets and resources need it to accomplish it and all perpetrated by Americans to Americans. And no one will say nothing about it!



I would like to add to this...

Why would they even allow enough time between hits to get live feed up and running and everyone watching when they could have done the hits about the same time to aviod video evidence except for the aftereffect?


One of the fallacies to all these different conspiracies from the official report is that all they need to do to explain away any data that comes forward is to just expand the conspiracy. By expanding the conspiracy it makes it easy to explain away any data as faked or a setup.

What everyone needs to understand is every part of these fakes and setups all individually need to be proven that they actually have been faked, and proven with empirical data, period.

The other part, that so many overlook, is the timing and variables involved, such as the planes hitting different levels of the towers and the aftereffects flowing logically. For all these variables to be planned out in advance to be faked would be a near impossibility to do it successfully.



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