Islam, Religion of Peace and a stack of Dead Bodies

Originally posted by Cythraul
reply to post by bodrul

 

I'm afraid I have difficulty taking your point seriously while you have a banner in your signature saying "Boycott israeli Goods". Surely this is tarring a whole nation with the same brush in exactly the same way some of the posters in this thread are inclined to tar all of Islam with the same brush, is it not?

and i care because?
we have members with i stand tall with israel and so on,.
honestly i dont care if you want to take me seriously or not,
its your option and frankly either way it doesnt bother

I don't care about the banners as both sides have taken sides for which they understand or support what they believe. It's a situation that needs a solution and it's going to be either one or the other. Which ever side wins, I guess people will be happy for it to be over so we don't have to make these statements any more.

reply to post by jimmyx

with all due respect for a civil discussion, i must disagree with you, islamic violence is taking place in more places across the world where muslims are not the primary or even a large minority of the society.

And where might this be occuring? The United States? Please. Britain? I would expect as much, they form their own communities and cannot transition into society as well. France? Well, they have their own issues but it should be apparent. Islam is not the source of violence, it is an excuse route used by people who use it to hind a real agenda. Most of the actual terrorist cells are far more anti-state government where ever they are and are far more militant in nature.

even in america, muslim women are held to quran law.

Hmm.. Well I would have to advise you to understand the difference between "religion" and "culture" .. It was a cultural habit in the West some 70 years ago to make sure the only job women had was to pop out babies and make sure dinner of was on the table when the man got home.

Culture.

Not religion.

there has been articles across the nation where muslim men have harmed and even killed their wives for disobeying islamic law.

I would imagine the man had some serious control issues, and religion played no part. Of course if we counted up how many Christians killed their family members, well it could fill a few books.

i'm for human rights for all people, and i don't think we should be passive in this regard, in upholding that value even if it goes against anyones religious beliefs.

ITs culture mate.

If you noticed, 9 times out of 10 new immigrants stay with their tradition, but their sons and daughters, being raised in the US or Britain or wherever, are American culturally. They wear tight clothes, sometimes drink, don't wear head pieces. Still Muslim. Different culture.

Click here for more information.

TheWalkingFox... point being... To know/understand WHO/WHAT wants you dead, now, today...There are some nice, deeply thought out reply's as to the content of said site... and some that are deeply disturbing as well...Carry on...

Originally posted by runetang
How did Islam reach its' places? Let's see .. just about everyone, everywhere .. including North Africa, Southern Spain, Western Asia, the Mid East, Southern Asia? All of these were converted through organized military conquest. Dont fool yourself just because you dislike one religion more than others. This happened. I feel for the pagans, they were just killed outright usually, no chance for conversion. Jews and Christians sometimes could save themselves by submitting to Islam, but sometimes they were all killed as well. Particularly Jewish tribes.
[edit on 12/31/2007 by runetang]

Right, slight issue here with the spread of islam by conquest alone, in 1295 the Mongol Ruler Ghazan Khan converted to Islam. He was a pagan ruler who converted, not a defeated subject. Many conquered people converted to Islam during it's rapid expansion for many reasons including political ones.

Jews and christians were rarely subject to mass slaughter, many Jews were treated better by Muslim overlords than by Christian ones.

I've no love of Islam, my "Pagan" relatives still manage to scratch a living in Iran and have done since time imemorial against all odds. However, the site that this thread is about is full of the basest nonsense concocted by some dribbling idiot who thinks he's living in the middle ages with barbarians battering down the gate.

reply to post by bodrul

hehe lol or whatever your undies have just been revealed (on the line)
and i dont care attitude just shows your true colours !
what a laugh
taqqiya is it ?

Mohammad was a war monger and a pedophile. Islam is the work of the Satan. Long live Israel.

reply to post by Sky watcher


Oh, that made me chuckle out loud......... then I felt pity.

P.S. Have you anything constructive to add to this increasingly purile "debate"?

[edit on 1-1-2008 by DenyAllKnowledge]

reply to post by nought but clout


not really i just dont care about what you think
my views on Israel arent from a religous prospective but the actions they take,
which i dont want to go into as it has been debated on ATS

undies caught on the washing line?
jebus
well of course its going to be seen if its out to dry

feel free to U2U me if you want to discuss my views on the state of Israel
also

to the above poster i doubt sky watcher had anything usefull to say anyway
if he does then i retract this

[edit on 1-1-2008 by bodrul]

reply to post by DenyAllKnowledge


Ghazan only converted because of his greed. He took power from his predecessor, Baydu. He was convinced by the Mongol Muslim Amir Nawrūz to convert to Islam in return for Nawrūz's military aid in taking over the Mongol Ilkhanate(empire). He did not convert because he believed Islam to be a nice religion. He was baptized and raised a Christian and also followed Buddhism.

reply to post by spec_ops_wannabe


So you agree, he wasn't defeated and forced to convert. He was being pragmatic, like so many other converts.

reply to post by DenyAllKnowledge


I didn't say that I agree, I simply brought more facts forward on the subject.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Mohammad was a war monger

eh...so? moses was too.

and a pedophile.

it was a sick culture, not a sick individual.

Islam is the work of the Satan.

this is by far the least constructive thing added to the conversation.
hmm..
christianity is the work of satan
my statement is just as supported as yours, being completely unbacked by anything further.

Long live Israel.

why?
why long live a nation that uses clusterbombs on civilian targets, slaughters children, and starves out an entire people?


Long Live Humanity
In Peace

People that do these terrible things are not born they are created by the society and culture that they happen to be born into. Religion, just like the governments of these people, know this and scheme for that individual’s entire life to mould, control and manipulate for their own political, economic and cultural ends.

You don’t need religion to kill, Stalin or Mao seemed to have no problem inflicting 100+ Million deaths but you know what I read about the est. 30-70Million Chinese deaths under Mao as an example and I just see the ever present helping hands of USSR, USA and UK/Europe at the time.

It doesn’t matter what the name of the culture or religion is, the vast majority of these people blowing up themselves and others are just that, people like you and me. But, unlike you and me have had a very different exposure to the world that we both share. And, without removing any of the blame from their own rulers/government, I’m still going with the big super powers being responsible for ALL the atrocities either directly or indirectly through world policy and their handling of less powerful countries over the centuries and up to and including today.

You don’t stop a person that kills another you provide the environment that makes the need or desire to kill obsolete. Look at your country and say that you are not supporting their terror any more!

That’s what I think anyway.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Well Said Mr Rockpuck! Barkeep - another round of Guiness Stout over here!

Let me remind how poorly our own WAR is going:

US military deaths in Iraq at 3,904
As of Tuesday, Jan. 1, 2007, at least 3,904 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes eight military civilians. At least 3,178 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers.

The AP count is three higher than the Defense Department's tally, last updated Tuesday at 10 a.m. EST.

The British military has reported 174 deaths; Italy, 33; Ukraine, 18; Poland, 21; Bulgaria, 13; Spain, 11; Denmark, seven; El Salvador, five; Slovakia, four; Latvia, three; Estonia, Netherlands, Thailand, Romania, two each; and Australia, Hungary, Kazakhstan, South Korea, one death each.
From Associated Press

Who will be #4,000? Perhaps on March 18, 2008? Wow! Irony par excellence.

[edit on 1/2/2008 by donwhite]

With 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world there are 100s of millions of them that live in peace.

There is also 100s of millions that view violence as part of their culture, and so they support it.

There are 10s of millions of them that see violence as the only way…

If you do not think this is true I put forth the fact that Muslims by far have felt the wrath of their own religion more than anyone else on the planet. This is Muslim against Muslim, and the rest of us non-Muslims are nothing more than a side note to their violent means.

Those that defend this religion are not willing to accept that there is a violent culture associated with it on a national level in most Muslim dominated countries. We are talking ON NATIONAL LEVELS and this is what separates it from other religions and what makes it so dangerous to the world at this point in time.

In reality, many other religions have had a violent history, but even though religions are different the mentality of violence is the same, and this mentality of centuries ago is what we see today in 2008 in the Muslim world.

It doesn’t need to be religion either for religion is just the motivator. In recent times we have seen Nationalism as the motivator with the Nazi party and Communism and both of those are responsible for 10 of millions (Nazis) and 100 of millions (Communism) of deaths.

In all these cases it has resulted in the country’s morality rotting to the point that human life has ZERO value, and that is what we have here when you strip it all down to the basic element.

Whether the motivator is religion or nationalism or anything else it all boils down to two sides with one side that values human life and the other side doesn't.

Why would a person strap on a suicide vest and walk into a market or funeral and blow themselves up? Why would a father kill his daughter because she was with a boy or wanted to marry someone else than the father’s choosing? Why would a group of men go into a village and kill every man, woman or child they can find with no other reason than different views.

I could write “whys” for what would seem like endless pages, but the reality is if a person doesn’t value the life of their mother, daughter, father, brother or son then they sure do not value mine.

reply to post by donwhite


Don't stop with the death statistics of soldiers. Keep going. CNN Has lots of stories on this topic.

War has wiped out about 655,000 Iraqis or more than 500 people a day since the U.S.-led invasion, a new study reports.

Interesting, but if you read the full extent of the article, then interestingly enough, it seem that the in-fighting between the Iraqi people are more of a danger to themselves than the U.S. soldiers' bullets are.

Coalition forces blamed for 31 percent of deaths

Amazing that in a country that's bombed, attacked, and occupied by 200,000 foriegn troops, you have a bigger chance of being killed from interal strife than from the occupying army. Quite a few of these deaths are from Islamic struggles that have nothing to do with the U.S. This large death toll is actually normal in countries where an Islamic group is trying to gain control over others. Look at Sudan. People are dying there faster than they are in Iraq and there's no occupying army to blame. Only Islamic groups trying to maintain control of the country.

"Recent estimates are that 200,000 have died in Darfur [Sudan] over the past 31 months

Yes, it's true. It's no suprise to find piles of dead bodies anywhere you find Islamic strife. Occupying armies have less to do with the death toll than Islam does itself.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
With 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world there are 100s of millions of them that live in peace.

There is also 100s of millions that view violence as part of their culture, and so they support it.

There are 10s of millions of them that see violence as the only way…

firstly nice to see that your not generalizing all us muslims into one
but i doubt 100s millions just blindly support the people that use violance as a way, the Killings of thousends of muslims does effect how people see things.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
If you do not think this is true I put forth the fact that Muslims by far have felt the wrath of their own religion more than anyone else on the planet. This is Muslim against Muslim, and the rest of us non-Muslims are nothing more than a side note to their violent means.

Muslim on Muslim violace has escelated in the last few decades (i am not blaming the US and not putting the full blame on it just to clarify before someone jumps and starst shouting anti US and stuff) but many countries encluding the US havent helped in this by siding with diffrent parties and so on giving leverage to them over other groups.

the violance may look large on the media but in rality it isnt and i have spoken to Iraqis that have lived in Iraq during the attacks and bombardments from the US/UK and they tell me the violance only flared after the occupation, this is from the mouths of Iraqis not some left or right wing media.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Those that defend this religion are not willing to accept that there is a violent culture associated with it on a national level in most Muslim dominated countries. We are talking ON NATIONAL LEVELS and this is what separates it from other religions and what makes it so dangerous to the world at this point in time.

there is a violance culture in all faiths and anyone that says otherwise really needs to start reading up on the other faiths, its also the way someone defines the teaching, now i come from a line of mullahs and hafizs which is very high ranking muslims as some would like to see it.
now during my bringing my family have had Hindu, christian friends
who have worked and stayed with the family and during war have stood side by side. Islam on the national level is complicated as it is difrrent in diffrent countries and how that country defines their law. (Sharia law)

some countries (Minority) still use strict sharia law as others have abolished or just use only a few,

Originally posted by Xtrozero
It doesn’t need to be religion either for religion is just the motivator. In recent times we have seen Nationalism as the motivator with the Nazi party and Communism and both of those are responsible for 10 of millions (Nazis) and 100 of millions (Communism) of deaths.

Religion doesnt define someone
a person is defined by how they intrerprit their faith and the paths they choose. a Jew,christian and so on can be hardcore religous and commit murder but its not their faith that commands them its at their accord.
also there are those that are just born out of hate and no nothing else but then again thats only for those that are born in those circimstances or are put in those circimstances due to war.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
In all these cases it has resulted in the country’s morality rotting to the point that human life has ZERO value, and that is what we have here when you strip it all down to the basic element.

not really in some countries it has helped them
Crime is low in most sharia law countries due to the punishment (Harsh but thats their Law)
and so on. Sharia law doent put Zero value on human life but the person who interpits it.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Why would a person strap on a suicide vest and walk into a market or funeral and blow themselves up? Why would a father kill his daughter because she was with a boy or wanted to marry someone else than the father’s choosing? Why would a group of men go into a village and kill every man, woman or child they can find with no other reason than different views.

depends on which country your in.
Palistine they have no way of figting back, no air force no tanks and so on, as bombs fall from f-16s and apaches all they have is AK-47s and so on so they use the only thing that they can, the human body.

also the honor killing isnt defined by Islam as it happens in alot of Culture, Sikh comunities and Hindu comunities,

also in war alot of morons have raped and murderd people. Cosivo serbs,
Iraq some US forces murderd and raped girls and killed their entire familes, are you saying those people were motivated by christianity to rape the Iraqi kids and kill their familes?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I could write “whys” for what would seem like endless pages, but the reality is if a person doesn’t value the life of their mother, daughter, father, brother or son then they sure do not value mine.

In Islam the people one must always Value is their Family
here is a quote when a man asked the prohet who he should respect the highest of all,

Your Mother, Heaven liveth at the feet of mothers”
Family is the most important thing a person can have due to the fact no matter what happens they will always be by your side.

and must always value the lives of others if they are no threat to them or caused them harm

sorry for the long reply and i hope i have addressed some points

[edit on 2-1-2008 by bodrul]

Originally posted by bodrul
firstly nice to see that your not generalizing all us muslims into one
but i doubt 100s millions just blindly support the people that use violence as a way, the Killings of thousends of muslims does effect how people see things.

They do not blindly support it for it is deeply imbedded into their culture. That culture is not only their Muslim faith, but their faith is a huge part of it.
I do not see large numbers of Muslims standing up against the violence, so even if they do not support it they accept it as just part of life without really trying to change.

Muslim on Muslim violace has escelated in the last few decades.

This violence I talk about ranges from the beating or stoning to death of a family member or neighbor up to the full violence of war. With that said, much of it has been around a long time, and as you know the differences in the Muslim faith has always had violent encounters and not just in the last 30 years.

What we see in Iraq today (I have spent over a year there) is the cause of freedom. Under Saddam, he imprisoned the country with fear, and now that the fear is gone the Iraqis have the pure freedom to make their country a better place or a hell hole of sectarian violence. Well not until 2007 has there been any real progression away from massive sectarian violence. Honestly, before the surge the coalition was killing 100 people per day in battles, and sectarian violence was claiming 3000 per day.

The Iraqi people are not in fear of the Americans, but they sure fear traveling across or through a city.

there is a violance culture in all faiths and anyone that says otherwise really needs to start reading up on the other faiths,

Can you give an example of another religion in 2008 that on scale and level of violence is even remotely like what we see in Islam today?

now during my bringing my family have had Hindu, christian friends
who have worked and stayed with the family and during war have stood side by side. Islam on the national level is complicated as it is difrrent in diffrent countries and how that country defines their law. (Sharia law)
some countries (Minority) still use strict sharia law as others have abolished or just use only a few,

You my friend are not ignorant with your worldly views, but inside Islam most are ignorant of the world and believe whatever their religious leaders tell them to believe even when it doesn't match with the Koran.

This is why a person can strap on a suicide vest and kill themselves and a mass of other Muslims all in religious faith even though it is against the Koran.

Religion doesnt define someone a person is defined by how they intrerprit their faith and the paths they choose.

I could not have said it better myself except after the word "choose" to also say "or taught"

I need to ask you why has there been so much sectarian violence in Iraq since the removal of Saddam? Why are people willing to blow themselves up just to take out another group of Muslims? How does an extremist group like the Taliban gain control of a country and continue to exist in large numbers after their removal?

I say most of this has been caused by the teachings of Sharia law and its interpretations. The only way to overcome extremism is with moderation, patience and respect towards others that are not like faith. I do not see this taught outside of the western world with Islam.

not really in some countries it has helped them
Crime is low in most sharia law countries due to the punishment (Harsh but thats their Law)
and so on. Sharia law doent put Zero value on human life but the person who interpits it.

To not do something out of fear, and in this case because of harsh Sharia law, doesn't create morals for the value of life.

My friend, when a person interprets something it has little consequences on a large scale, but when a nation interprets something it has great consequences attached.

A big part of my argument is that Islam is the only place that interprets the use of violence on a national scale. And once again it is mostly Muslim against Muslim.

In the Christian world we had the Branch Davidians and their leader interpreted the bible in his own extreme way, and that way had little to do with other mainstream Christian faiths. If all of a sudden we had 1000s of Branch Davidians like extremists and instead on hundreds of followers they had tens of thousands in each one then we would start to have a nation or even worldwide issue much like the Muslim world of today.

It is not about the religion, but about the sheer numbers involved that makes it so dangerous.

depends on which country your in.
Palistine they have no way of figting back, no air force no tanks and so on, as bombs fall from f-16s and apaches all they have is AK-47s and so on so they use the only thing that they can, the human body.

I agree here except suicide bombers are mostly used against innocent civilians.

also the honor killing isnt defined by Islam as it happens in alot of Culture, Sikh comunities and Hindu comunities,

Are honor killings within the Muslim religion or is it a cultural event? Can you agree that anyway you look at it that it is based on little value of human life?

also in war alot of morons have raped and murderd people. Cosivo serbs,
Iraq some US forces murderd and raped girls and killed their entire familes, are you saying those people were motivated by christianity to rape the Iraqi kids and kill their familes?

You are mixing up independent actions with those approved at a higher leadership level with influence over large number of people.

Can you see the difference?

If the US Army told its soldiers to kill every male between the ages of 16 to 65 then the zero value for human life would be at an institutional level. When 200 Muslims go into a village and kill, or XX number of headless bodies are found routinely then it is more in line that life has little value at an institutional level.

In Islam the people one must always Value is their Family

I agree with you, but I wished more Muslims would agree with you too.



[edit on 2-1-2008 by Xtrozero]