Originally posted by ignorant_ape
that would be a sock puppet - pretending to be another person and posting co-oberating " evidence " to support a claim

It's especially funny, when such people insult their other persona, or call it a sick person, like JLW did with Gridkeeper when talking to Jose.

They think it makes their act more convincing, if they're not nice to themselves all the time...


On the other hand, it tells a lot about the person in question..

[edit on 31-12-2007 by deezee]

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Here's ITF's problem in a nutshell:

And here's your (and ITF's) problem in a 'nutshell':
Complete and 'obvious' disregard for the fact that people are allowed to believe in whatever they want to. That just because no evidence is able to be presented it doesn't mean it's a hoax. That what you may see as nothing, others see as evidence. You've seem to come to the conclusion that if you're unable make sense of something, noone else can either -- and that if they claim to do so... they must be "kooks, "liars", "fools", "gullible" etc. To me it looks as if you're jealous of all the attention that some get here, backed by the fact that you're unable to come to terms with the reality in that you simply dont know everything. Frustrated, naive, narrow minded people is what comes to my mind.

Happy new year!

Regarding the thread topic -- I always believed the whole thing was extremely suspect and I've questioned Gridkeeper on the subject a few times before...only to be dissapointed. Not suprised the slightest bit.

[edit on 31/12/07 by Navieko]

Originally posted by Navieko
Complete and 'obvious' disregard for the fact that people are allowed to believe in whatever they want to.

Of course they are allowed. Nobody denies that.

It's just that believing stuff, doesn't make you actually know anything.
Some people come here wanting to find more beliefs, while others really want to KNOW, instead of just believing.

And for those, it is very important to know what is real and what is a hoax, and have everything logically analyzed.

UFOlogy is supposed to be "The science of UFOs", not a belief system! It comes from the Greek word "logos", and means KNOWLEDGE.


"New agers" have turned all this into a pot of randomly mixed mutually exclusive and often even self conflicting beliefs and it makes many people, who might otherwise be interested, simply turn around.

It's funny, how people, who believe so hard, that they are unable to even consider a different explanation, call everyone who thinks logically, narrow minded, while in fact, just the opposite is true.

You know, its kind of funny. I am a relatively new person to this site. I joined because I choose to look at the evidence that supports(or debunks) different points of view and theories. Having an open mind, but also being willing to know that some people will advance hoaxes, should not be a reason for anyone to disparage any one else. But the truth I have found here, is that every thread ends up with someone else being shelled over an idea, or thought that someone else thinks is stupid. What should be a site to explore and examine, is instead an Oprah Winfrey site, or a Peyton Place site, or what have you.

People need stick together, even if their opinions differ, or this site and the people who choose to belong, will never be taken seriously.

Lighten up and live and let live.
Happy New Year.

Originally posted by free_spirit
My conclusion. Regrettable to say but the man is mentally disturbed.

I've had to deal with mentally disturbed people in the past and it's interesting, that no matter what their delusions are about, they all act almost the same way. Once you've seen a couple, you've seen them all.

A good example of JLWs mania is how he plasters his videos with three copyright notices at the same time and the way he writes his "conclusions" into the videos sometimes.

It's just manic blurting out of random thoughts, which he actually thinks mean something.

What i also find interesting is his spelling. "They are hear", for example. Where the hell does that come from? Wasn't he as the Gridkeeper able to write normaly?

Or could this be on purpose, to make this personality more separate and different from himself, and therefore maybe more real?

The human mind is a very fascinating thing. Unless you get lost in it.

Originally posted by waterguy
People need stick together, even if their opinions differ, or this site and the people who choose to belong, will never be taken seriously.

Unfortunatelly this is impossible, since the believers allways feel hurt, when the facts oppose their beliefs, or when someone asks for a REASON to believe.

If the believers would say "i believe...." instead of claiming to know the truth, all this would be much different. But they use claims to support their beliefs, and when all of these claims are prooven wrong, they say it's a gut feeling.

The thing is, this gut feeling would never be there in the first place, if it wasn't for the fake evidence. Still, they continue to believe, which is fine, if they want to.. But for those who ACTUALLY seek the truth, it is extremely important to hear the logical side of the argument.

I dare say, that all of us, who are called skeptics, are not really skeptics, but are instead willing to follow logic and facts, wherever they might lead, even if they should lead to proof of any of those beliefs. Still, we are often called narrow minded by the believers.

But i ask myself... Who is trully narrow minded? The people who use rationall thought, or the believers, who don't even want to consider a different explanation than what they want to believe?

Originally posted by Navieko

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Here's ITF's problem in a nutshell:

And here's your (and ITF's) problem in a 'nutshell':
Complete and 'obvious' disregard for the fact that people are allowed to believe in whatever they want to. That just because no evidence is able to be presented it doesn't mean it's a hoax. That what you may see as nothing, others see as evidence. You've seem to come to the conclusion that if you're unable make sense of something, noone else can either -- and that if they claim to do so... they must be "kooks, "liars", "fools", "gullible" etc. To me it looks as if you're jealous of all the attention that some get here, backed by the fact that you're unable to come to terms with the reality in that you simply dont know everything. Frustrated, naive, narrow minded people is what comes to my mind.

Happy new year!

Regarding the thread topic -- I always believed the whole thing was extremely suspect and I've questioned Gridkeeper on the subject a few times before...only to be dissapointed. Not suprised the slightest bit.

[edit on 31/12/07 by Navieko]

Why do you make stupid and false accusations like this? If I was really desperate enough to be jealous of attention over an internet forum, well I'd probably take the means to get it! I can make up fake stories in 10 minutes too :-)

When did anyone ever say people aren't allowed to believe in what they want? No problem there. But when those people expect ME to believe what they do - without providing any reasons why - there is a problem.

I'm quite open to new ideas. I'm quite open to the possibility of alien life or whatever topic this website may be discussing at times. I guess you don't realize that people like John Lenard Walson are IMPEDING serious research by purposefully hoaxing. ATS has a rule against hoaxing for a reason!

I request that you U2U me any further insults or false characterizations you have against me and keep the forum clear, please.

On topic: This should provide a wake up call for this forum. People DO try to hoax, the UFO "research" community is not one big happy family. Walson just happened to be caught a little sooner than some.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
I can make up fake stories in 10 minutes too :-)

And i bet they would be even better stories, then what we're used to around here.. Simply because you would most likely make it at least logical.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
When did anyone ever say people aren't allowed to believe in what they want? No problem there. But when those people expect ME to believe what they do - without providing any reasons why - there is a problem.

Exactly! The believers don't say that they believe, instead they say it's a prooven fact, and then they offer "evidence" which has been proven wrong at least 10 times. They pretend it's all real, and long since prooven, with many confirmations, while it is in fact their basic premise, that is wrong. So how do confirmations even matter? (i was thinking about planet X here)

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
I'm quite open to new ideas. I'm quite open to the possibility of alien life or whatever topic this website may be discussing at times.

To the believers, we will always be ignorant and narrow minded. They simply can't understand that believing something so completelly, IS NOT open mindedness. In fact, it is the worst kind of ignorance, there is!

Open mindedness means considering ALL of the possibilities, and not just the one you like!

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
I guess you don't realize that people like John Lenard Walson are IMPEDING serious research by purposefully hoaxing. ATS has a rule against hoaxing for a reason!

Exactly! That's what i've been trying to say all the time.

If we are to find any real truth on anything, we have to focus on real evidence. Hoaxes and delusionall people not only make it harder to even decide which evidence should be considered, they make the entire field of research look like nothing more than a product of a delusionall mind at worst, and a hoax at best.

How is this helpfull?

Believers don't care.. But they believe already. Why not let us look at the facts and come to our own (logical) conclusions, without calling us ignorant?

It's as if they want us all to dumb down, and start believing for nothing.


Just one question to you believers: If you really KNOW the truth, why do you get so offended, when someone points out a flaw in your "theory"?

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Here's ITF's problem in a nutshell:

Complete and obvious hoaxes like sleeper or F.A.S.T. gets all the attention here at ATS, because it's more interesting and fantastical than anything else. People ignore the fact (couldn't help myself) that zero real evidence of any kind is provided; ironically the ones who mention that are the ones called blind sheep.

At the same time, serious UFO cases are ignored on the large part because they're just not as interesting. How can anyone call themselves a serious UFO researcher when this happens? There are exceptions of course - the recent thread about Bob White's object and "Team ATS at Roswell" come to mind - but on the whole this entire forum is full of shenanigans and trickery.


[mod edit - circumventing "naughty word" censors]

[edit on 31-12-2007 by Byrd]

Word. Shiny things attract some people like a D-student to polystyrene glue. Of course in the internet democracy of ATS equal time is offered to all threads, and some serious research threads are stuffier or contain much more fibre than the pathetic hoaxes... Health food versus junk food...

This thread is important since it alerts people to an alleged offence. A lot of the UFO threads are just sort of... lame... filled with cheap faith and cheaper skepticism. Oh well.

Originally posted by evanmontegarde
Why do you make stupid and false accusations like this? If I was really desperate enough to be jealous of attention over an internet forum, well I'd probably take the means to get it! I can make up fake stories in 10 minutes too :-)

Firstly I must apologize. Most the stuff I had written was directed mainly at ITF -- I've known him for awhile now on ATS, and so I know what he's like. Since you made a post defending him on this matter (in particular), I subconsiously/mistakenly had the idea that you endorsed the same views in general. Now let me clarify some of the meaning behind my original post.

When did anyone ever say people aren't allowed to believe in what they want? No problem there. But when those people expect ME to believe what they do - without providing any reasons why - there is a problem.

What I was reffering to is the type of people that attack and make demands on people such as Sleeper and John Lear. Neither of them expect any of you to believe a thing they say.... they're here to share their story/finds with people that are interested, and those that may want to contribute. Often times they are attacked for not providing "sufficient" evidence to support their claims. My point is that it's up to the individual to decide in such trivial circumstances, what they think is sufficient enough evidence or not. I often see ITF constantly hassling Mr. Lear on his forum about the same old stuff. My request is that he and others like him come to terms with the fact that it's only their own opinion that determines that the evidence is bunk, just as it is Mr. Lear's opinion that his claims are truth. They can both be wrong. Neither can prove definately that they are right -- therefore, the T&C of this site allows for Mr. Lear to continue on... and it's up to the skeptics to be the 'bigger person', and leave it alone. Until they come up with something new, stop derailing threads with the same old crap. It's a similar case with Sleeper... just because he has no solid evidence to back up his story, doesn't make it a hoax. It just means that it's left up to the reader to form their own opinion -- and that's all I'm trying to defend.

I'm quite open to new ideas. I'm quite open to the possibility of alien life or whatever topic this website may be discussing at times. I guess you don't realize that people like John Lenard Walson are IMPEDING serious research by purposefully hoaxing. ATS has a rule against hoaxing for a reason!

As I pointed out in the bottom of my original post, I also concur that this whole 'John Lenard Walson' ordeal is a hoax. I strongly agree that this sort of stuff does great harm to those that genuinely wish to find and reveal the truth, in this subject. But I disagree with people generalizing people such as Mr. Lear and Sleeper, with the sort of people like John Lenard -- who are easily exposed and not just a subject of opinion in regards to evidence.

Perhaps I was wrong to use this thread, and your post to make my point about something not directly related to the OP -- but I saw many people doing the same in reverse. They use this thread to illegitimately attack people that simply should not be attacked, under the context of this thread. Once again I apologize for my mistake, and any ill feelings caused as a result.

[edit on 1/1/08 by Navieko]

I don't want to offend anyone but i just want to express by opinion about this matter if i may

First of all i would like to say that sometimes i'm amazed how eagerly some people at ATS want to debunk everything.
I would like ask some questions, first of all what was F.A.S.T. all about? to my understanding it is to expose the truth as john lenard believes, if he believes that the orb video is something to be seen by everyone, what stops him to edit it into his videos. he didn't claim he shot the footage. yet you people speculate that he pirated and call it a hoax
I always believed in begin open minded, yet i see almost nothing of that back within this matter

2nd question, how can you guys be certain that john lenard impersonates people? people use nicknames of famous people all the time, you can't be certain that john lenard impersonated michio kaku,for all i know it could just be a teenager that has an interest in F.A.S.T. and copy pasted text from john lenard

some of you said that some craft 'shot' by john lenard look like other things from movies. that doesn't proof it is a hoax
I for myself have seen clouds looking like a rough shape of the starship enterprise, but we all know that those two things are not related to eachother whatsoever. couldn't the same thing apply to this matter.
If you dig deep enough you will always find an image a shape or something else that looks the same as what you are observing
And how about the face on mars, it looks like a face, it has the characteristics of a face, but if i look close enough it is not
People see things that aren't actually there, couldn't the same apply for the F.A.S.T footage?

For all i know this is a hoax, but you cant call it a hoax based on speculation. what if we debunk it and it turns out to be true? then we can blame ourselfs for covering it up
There is a risk that we debunk stories,footage and images that are actually real. I feel that if we keep debunking based on speculations we may never get out the truth many seek


therefore I ask you people to please threat john lenard with respect, there are no hardfacts that this is a hoax, and no hardfacts that what he is claiming is true. can't we just be gentle with him until this changes?

Originally posted by racquemis
I don't want to offend anyone but i just want to express by opinion about this matter if i may

First of all i would like to say that sometimes i'm amazed how eagerly some people at ATS want to debunk everything.
I would like ask some questions, first of all what was F.A.S.T. all about? to my understanding it is to expose the truth as john lenard believes, if he believes that the orb video is something to be seen by everyone, what stops him to edit it into his videos. he didn't claim he shot the footage. yet you people speculate that he pirated and call it a hoax
I always believed in begin open minded, yet i see almost nothing of that back within this matter

I'm almost certain you are gridkeeper again that found a way to subscribe
again to ATS and now under a new nickname. You just subscribed today
and started replying almost in the same tone used by the gridkeeper. This
is very suspicious and may represent the undesired return of gridkeeper
now with new disguise. Am I right ? Or perhaps you are John Lenard W.
himself. I almost recognized your vocabulary, style and tone.

Maybe the administrators may check your IP address to see if it's located
in the UK in wich case will indicate if it's the same as gridkeeper. However
as I know you very well you may be using a public computer as you used
to all the time in wich case will still come from the UK.

If the moderators establish you are not the gridkeeper from the UK then
I will be the first to apologize. In the meanwhile I would like to warn the
members of a posible new trick from gridkeeper / John Lenard Walson
now as racquemis.

Originally posted by waterguy
People need stick together, even if their opinions differ, or this site and the people who choose to belong, will never be taken seriously.

I think for the most part, everyone who posts here, no matter what the claim, is originally given the benefit of the doubt. If somebody wants to make a claim, for example, that they are regularly photographing "alien" ships in the night skies overhead, most folks here are willing to give the evidence a look and see what the deal is.

But this doesn't mean that somebody can show up with a half-assed notion and some blurry photos, obscure simple details that would help back up their claim, or possibly assume multiple identities to pretend to support their own position, without us calling them on it. From our perspective, that goes way beyond being supportive and having an open mind to just being gullible.

I'm personally of the opinion that if you pop up here with a claim, you should expect to have the harshest light thrown on it possible. You should be challenged at every step to produce evidence that backs up your claim. This is not a court of law, where you're presumed innocent from the start. In this forum, because of past history, you're a liar and a hoaxer until proven otherwise. The process is akin to refining any kind of metal. You need to put it through a lot of heat to get the best results.

If you notice, the people who are not called liars and hoaxers are those who make cautious, reasonable claims. If you honestly see and photograph a UFO, and we look at the images and we can't figure out what it is, we'll offer some suggestions as to what it might be, but if it's unidentifiable because there's not enough information about it, we can accept that. But if somebody starts making a lot of claims they can't back up, then into the furnace they go. And rightly so.