Some atheists are believers.

The message of Christ is beautiful to say the least. That is beside the point unfortunately. John Lennon said similar things, but I can't worship him either.

[edit on 1-1-2008 by Sublime620]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
LMAO if we don't believe in your god, how are we making it angry?

Read that line again. I said trying to make God angry.

See, we say people aren't following their god because we have read and understand your holy book, see the inconsistencies, know what the message is much better than most of the religious people.

No offense, but the majority of atheists who have read the Bible have about the same understanding about God as religious Christians. The difference being one side thinks it is a method of mind control, and the other side happens to be the ones controlled by it. Neither side, in my opionion, has broke through the words and read the symbolic spiritual meaning that is the real truth behind it. I say this stereotyping both parties as I am sure some people do see the fallacy of both sides of the argument.

How is saying someone isn't being christlike when they aren't living by the tenets of their religion being "untrue" to atheism?

The tenets of Christianity is the absolution of sins by means of unconditional love. Therefore, when someone (of any faith) claims that a person who is a Christian is not following the tenets of their faith based on acts, they have no idea what Christianity is truly about. Following Christ isn't a magic trick that makes you a good person. It does not make you a good person. It changes you on the inside. Sin is not an external affair but it is within you. What I see is that many atheists seek God, but argue to no end with believers to find proof. They are disturbed that they are not chosen, which fuels their zealousness to prove something that is unprovable. What's a shame is even a dog is not jealous that it wasn't made a cat.

If an attorney does something unethical, I don't have to practice law to report him to the BAR and say he isn't being a good attorney. If a doctor screws up and I sue him for malpractice and say he's not being a good doctor, I don't have to be a doctor to do that either.

But you are forgetting one thing. You can complain to the ends of the world, but you aren't a member of the "Good Ole' Boys" club. The BAR does little to its members unless there is a possibility of damage to the image of the legal profession. Doctors also know they will be sued which is why they have recouped the cost of malpractice insurance to cover the inevitable complaints through charging you a higher rate.

Same applies for xians.

But you said it all. You aren't a lawyer and you aren't a doctor, and I know you aren't a Christian - well maybe you could be. Anyway with your examples you have a higher power to complain to. With Christians, you are complaining to the one who upholds them. Eventually God is going to make it plain to you why he exists, which is why I am not determined to change you.

Sad but true, a great many atheists know xianity better than xians do. Which is why we think it's a crock.

Actually you have only pulled up a lot of the weeds from the field so that the wheat can grow.

But if we're going to be accusing people of stuff, I have a counter accusation: xians put too much of their personal self worth into what other people think of their religion. Who cares what we think of your god? It should only matter what you think.

But you do care a lot about God or you would not even bother to post in this thread. I am not saying that, you are. I could care less what you think about God now, because I already know the blessing he will bestow upon you, then you will see. ......and no, my name is not Creflo Dollar.

Originally posted by Columbus

Originally posted by ben91069
So you kinda went off and became atheist instead of defending the truth of the gospel,...

This is the same insult I get from all Christians. If I were still Christian, somebody else, and I had to respond to Columbus the Atheist on this board, I know exactly how I'd feel. Can you say the same?

I know what its like to be made to feel like an outcast, but that is not what I am doing here. What gives you the impression I was insulting you? You are so used to automatically defending your beliefs from Christians that you assume that you needed to do so in the first place. It should in no way make you feel insulted unless of course you do feel you are wrong. That, however, is something that you need to resolve on your own.

I didn't break with the church. What I told you was how I was taught, and how I ministered to others. I left the church by the reverse process of how I got into it, by understanding that process, the mind control process.

But you have only reversed the process of being influenced by religion. Doesn't that just mean you are just a non-believer in religion, and not necessarily God. Furthermore, what if God was not controlling at all and that religion has cast God that way for their own agendas? Would that not mean that God could free you of religion as well?

To be dependent on "oranges" forever and to reside in servitude at His feet, as is clearly written in Scripture is your fate, is not what I would equate with godhood.

If you looked at the scripture as a spiritual message it does not mean we sit at the feet of God and send up literal praises forever. You don't realize that the believers are not saved to be servants of God in a literal sense, for they are already Sons of God. They are meant to be servants of the weak. God does not need praise or worship. If you studied the Bible enough that you know the words as well as a Christian then why is it you do not understand the meanings behind the marriage of the lamb, the wedding supper, the relationship between man and woman, the cleansing of a wife and children, the story of Genesis, etc. These are not talking about what you think they are. It is one story at the last day of the creation which leads to eternity. You have no idea.

They think this because of lack of faith.

Again, faith = ignorance. How many times?

Again, faith is not measured in the same units as science. How many times will you try to show the inequality of the two when the units are not the same?

Unfaithful to whom? The activities of the church are solely to control the congregation. Faith is the obligation of the membership to the church. It is an unbalanced relationship and one reason why there are so many denominations. The church can only have one wife, not Christ, but the various interpretations of Christ.

You are well versed in studying the church, now study the Kingdom of Heaven and you will find truth.

Ben, you have an interpretation, it may be unique, but so is every other denomination. The right to the word truth goes to the one with evidence in reality, not the most or least popular, not the width of the road. And you like the others have no evidence as you admit. There is simply no way to say that what you are saying is any more or less made-up than anyone else.

True, but I believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss how some atheists are believers.

Knowing good and evil myself, it doesn't give me the power to create the Earth. Something inherently untrue about that despite God's own claim.

The promise of knowing good and evil is proving to be powerful enough create something like Earth. Have you ever heard of the talk of terraforming? When the end becomes like the beginning, then you will know that salvation is near. Knowing good and evil has given mankind everything that it has asked for and given them the power of God. I don't understand how you can say that knowledge of reason has not given you that kind of power. It certainly has.

...you aren't really being persecuted at all on this board.

Not by you.

Well thanks. Maybe I can buy you a couple shots of whiskey.

Tradition in this sense means anything that causes effect in any way.

If you want to misdefine tradition, you are starting down a slippery slope and may end up going down a terrible road to where I used to be and where some around here are now. If you are using a word differently from how ordinary people use it (as it says in the dictionary), you risk deceiving people, you are deceiving people, and who is the prince of that?

First, it isn't up to me who is deceived and who is not. Second, I know what the traditional meaning of the word is. That is not important. I believe that it means exactly what means. It does not just mean culture. It also means knowledge passed down. If your daddy was a Republican, then tradition would have it you follow suit and understand all about that parties politics, regardless of reason. If the tradition of men says that we all think the world is round and that Oxygen is heavier than Helium then that too is tradition. It is tradition in passing down knowledge. Just because it is a study of Chemistry or something else does not mean it is not tradition. So with that, I hold that tradition means any teaching from the past. Fortunately, religious Christians have not held up the tradition of the figure they represent or I would not be able to claim him as the head.

What you are talking about is causality. Nothing in Gospel violates causality in context. If you break too many physical laws people wouldn't be able to follow the story, like a comic book with no plot continuity and superheroes and villains who can literally do anything and travel back and forth in time randomly. This is the slippery slope of supernatural belief.

You have actually just mentioned the fabric of what reality is. It is the natural laws that are placed before us that are the lie. When we take that out of the way, then you will see what it is I am talking about. Mind you I am not claiming I can do miracles now, but because we are under the curse until the time of testing is over we must remain as mortal as anyone.

Jesus was a young rabbi accused of blasphemy himself by authorities. Christ is the authority of the Christian Church. For a member of the church to question Christ is blasphemy.

The bible quotes that whatever sins one does to Jesus is forgivable, but those who sin against the spirit is a blasphemer. Why do you think the distinction here, Columbus? Christ is the spirit which dwells in the body. The same Christ dwells today. Anyone can question Jesus, as he was a man.

Finding something unique doesn't mean they haven't been misled even by their own desires.

Fair enough. I desire to give the world to the non-believers, in abundance. That is my motivation.

reply to post by Sublime620


Well, John is made out to be the most loved and probably in my opinion shares the most profound revelation of the Lord, and yet he died too just like the biblical John. So why then do those who profess peace, become a Beatle and then die? Tradition says we are born, then die, but I am challenging tradition. I have said (in another thread) that the true believers are guided by destiny and cannot die, but will be changed.

I don't know why. I suppose it has something to do with the old phrase:

"Only the good die young".

Originally posted by ben91069
...I did not understand spiritual things very well...

May I ask how you define spiritual?

...because my faith wasn't solid.

It isn't meant to be. Remember the parable of the chasm?

It wasn't until I was around the age of 24 or 25 that I was completely convicted that I had been chosen.

Hmm, the same age I was, just after college.

This isn't a psychotic break either. I have had one of those and this is not psychosis.

You are implying that you have been clinically diagnosed, here. Symptoms include detachment from reality, delusional beliefs, personality changes, hallucinations, and may be the result of a neurological disorder, drugs, or traumatic circumstances. What I'm talking about here is cult mind-control induced psychosis that uses established techniques. Protestant Christian groups are notorious for employing these techniques and they are plainly visible in films like Jesus Camp.

It may appear that way to an observer, but the difference is that in a psychotic episode you really don't know what you are doing or thinking. You aren't really in control of your thoughts. What I believe now is a conscious decision, even though it sounds irrational.

Outside observers don't view believers as psychotics. Religious experience is not judged this way but is given the benefit of a doubt that it is genuine.

Psychosis in the Church has different stages and is very controlled, unlike a clinical state which is arbitrary, I'm talking about intentional mind control here. You can't compare the psychological state induced during bathing in the light of the lord to day-to-day thought filtering mechanisms you are trained to use while listening to Rush Limbaugh. Let's not forget that the motives and goals are deeply political and your own private denomination necessarily lacks that aspect.

You can't control your thoughts and it has nothing to do with psychosis. Schopenhauer teaches we do not want what we want. We only control what we say, not what we think. External thought control or thought reform can have positive goals, but it requires voluntary willing submission, of course, the church doesn't mention this, therefore it's deception.

I'm not telling you that I was not in control of my own actions while I was in the church. Powerful yet simple techniques were used on me to disable my inhibitions regarding what you understand to be irrational beliefs. Maybe there was really no harm in that. If I were still a Christian today, I would certainly think there is no harm in that, but I was deceived.

Do you know what harm concerns me?

C

Originally posted by ben91069
I know what its like to be made to feel like an outcast, but that is not what I am doing here.

I thought you might realize that this is irrelevant to me by now.

What gives you the impression I was insulting you?

The words you choose. I know you don't understand them, so why use them?

...automatically defending your beliefs...

Again, you should know me. I don't feel threatened here. I feel like a teacher with too many naughty students and not enough time. A student might think they know better than the teacher, but that is the arrogance of ignorance.

...you do feel you are wrong.

Naughty.

But you have only reversed the process of being influenced by religion.

Technically, I only reversed the process as used by the Protestant church, but by extension of my knowledge, even the CIA would find me a tough nut to crack. I would volunteer for water boarding.

...a non-believer in religion, and not necessarily God.

If you would finally realize what I keep saying, that faith IS ignorance, once you put faith to the sword, you open yourself to all the knowledge available, including (for example) the knowledge of God.

...God could free you of religion as well?

God could do a lot of things he doesn't. Doesn't that tell us all we need to know about Him?

...a spiritual message ... does not mean ... literal praises forever.

I don't know your spirituality. I see the Bible as worthless from a knowledge seeker's point of view. It contains no truth as truth is properly defined.

...servants of the weak.

So you see why a literal Gospel would not go over in Conservative Country.

God does not need praise or worship.

You get a star. Does this mean they'll shut down the Christian radio stations now?

...you do not understand the meanings...

Naughty. Plus, you are not paying attention.

...the marriage of the lamb, the wedding supper,...

As I have limited time, I don't teach everything. My technique is focus. The technique of the church is to have an enormous body of knowledge to drown your victims in.

You have no idea.

Naughty. I don't have time for this.

Again, faith is not measured in the same units as science.

it is only the definition of the word. There are no units of knowledge. Faith is a lack of it and suppression of it, a war against it in fact.

You are well versed in studying the church, now study the Kingdom of Heaven and you will find truth.

Blubbering.

True, but I believe the purpose of this thread was to discuss how some atheists are believers.

Were.

Have you ever heard of the talk of terraforming?

Armageddon is invited before then. What Israel matters in the scheme of the Universe?

...who is deceived and who is not.

I refer you to my parable of the invisible wall.

I believe that it means exactly what means.

But do the people you teach understand it before they are Saved?

It also means knowledge passed down.

That is hearsay, not truth and therefore not knowledge, only myth.

If the tradition of men says that we all think the world is round and that Oxygen is heavier than Helium then that too is tradition. It is tradition in passing down knowledge.

It would only become tradition if we forgot how, or lost the means, to prove it. Tradition by this definition is faith and ignorance wherein you trust authority (ancestors) and know nothing of the origin of truth. It can be argued that such statements would not be true, even though we know them today to be true, to a future generation lost, they would not be more than speculation and myth.

It is the natural laws that are placed before us that are the lie.

This quote should be in the textbook definition of psychosis. (Why is there no :sigh: emoticon!?!)

C


[edit on 2-1-2008 by Columbus]

Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by snowflake_obsidian

 

"To follow Christ actually makes you God. That is what the true calling of Christ is; a calling to remember your God-hood."

Off topic, i know. Sorry!

But i was so happy reading this! Yaeeeeee! Doing happy dance!

Thinking to God in a deep satisfying smile "He said it! He really really said it!" With a big, heavy, relieving sigh...

hmmmmm... life is so Good!

love always

i believe i need to read more in which i will do shortly. However, at a glance it does look like the pair of atheists are in full efforts of their normal process of attack from both sides to overcome.

i hope i'm wrong...

Are they slinging mud again?

love always

I think I can sum it up:

Christians deny Ganesh, Horus, Shiva, Allah, Thor, Zeus, Vishnu etc...

Therefore Christians are only one god away from atheism...

Therefore, don't be offended when atheists deny your God, because you Christians are denying thousands of other Gods.

Simple.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Christians are only one god away from atheism...

And that my friend, makes all the difference. Atheism is the belief that there is not god. Believing in only one eliminates you from being an athiest. Besides, once you find the real thing, why should you need another, lesser substitute?

reply to post by dbates


So how do you justify the denial of thousands of other 'equally valid' gods in other beliefs?

What makes your God better than say Thor or Vishnu?

Why are they 'lesser'?

Why is yours better?

How can you prove your God is better than Shiva?

What about beliefs that existed before Christianity? Are they invalid now or do they have more historical strength?



[edit on 3-1-2008 by mr-lizard]

[edit on 3-1-2008 by mr-lizard]

reply to post by mr-lizard

That's not relevant to the discussion. (Some atheists are believers). The point is that it only takes belief in a single god to barr you from the ranks of athiest. At least by definition.

You're proving the arguement of the original poster. Why argue about if one god is better than the other. If you were a true athiest you wouldn't care. You'd just shake your head and say "They are all mistaken".

EDIT: Honestly most athiest in this forum are probably not true atheist, else they wouldn't venture into here with the frequency that we see them here.

[edit on 3-1-2008 by dbates]

Originally posted by dbates
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

That's not relevant to the discussion. (Some atheists are believers). The point is that it only takes belief in a single god to barr you from the ranks of athiest. At least by definition.

You're proving the arguement of the original poster. Why argue about if one god is better than the other. If you were a true athiest you wouldn't care. You'd just shake your head and say "They are all mistaken".
[edit on 3-1-2008 by dbates]

I do think it is relevant to the discussion.

I don't believe in your God or anybody elses for that matter, but I am interested in what Christians have to say about other peoples beliefs... but I like the way you dodged the question nontheless. Very typical.

[edit on 3-1-2008 by mr-lizard]

reply to post by mr-lizard


So you're interested in discussing the reasoning why one god is better than others? Please start a topic asking this question. It's not polite to hijack someone's thread with a new idea. Is there any chance that any god might be real? If not, then why discuss the subject.

reply to post by dbates


apologies.

Check this then:

www.belowtopsecret.com...&flagit=324513

since you've asked me to create this thread, I've set some questions for you (and everyone else).

reply to post by dbates


hmmmm...

Thank you dbates!

i do love moderators. They are so good!

love always

I don't have to believe that Jesus was real to acknowledge that he was a character in a book. I can say "you aren't very Gandalf-like" but that doesn't mean I secretly believe in Gandalf.