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Some atheists are believers.

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posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:30 AM
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I had the pleasure of being told by an atheist that I was not Christ-like, which means that the prosecution believes themselves that they know what Christ is to be able to judge what is not Christ.

I realize there are different flavors of atheism regarding spirituality, so I can't say that all of them make this claim. The ones that do set themselves up to make spectacle out of atheism as being not what it is supposed to be - a non-belief in a higher power. If a higher power does not exist, then no atheist should say in sincerity that a Christian is not following Christ, if they do not believe in them in the first place.

Well, I am sure a few of you will say you have some "right" to deny the ability to judge Christians, but the fact is if you do not believe in Christ in the first place you are just playing devils advocate for your side and trying to make God angry.




posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 05:22 AM
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A person can still believe in Christ and not believe in a God. A person can simply believe that Jesus Christ was nothing but a mortal man.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by snowflake_obsidian
 


To follow Christ actually makes you God. That is what the true calling of Christ is; a calling to remember your God-hood. There are probably a couple few people on here who are part of the division, but there is no way to tell that yet.

The bible has a few references about the validity of tradition, which is basically historical accounts. There is no proof of Jesus as a person. It was meant that way to not spoil the truth of the gospel of the spirit - Christ.

Either way, you cannot judge Christ unless you know him.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 05:51 AM
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Yes but an athiest is not going to follow what YOU believe about Christ. An athiest has their own opinions. There are many opinions that this Jesus character that is mentioned in the bible was merely a mortal man.

Also, from what I have observed, many athiests have a fair amount of knowledge about scripture and I think what they mean when they are accusing you of not being very Christlike is that they think if you are as Christian as you say you are, then maybe you should act more like Christ the way he was in the bible.

That doesn't necessarily mean they believe in Christ or God, it's just a different way of people telling you to practice what you preach.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 05:54 AM
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Ben91069 I don't understand your point in your opening post in this thread.

Did an Atheist try to tell you that you aren't a Christian ?

Cheers xpert11.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
Yes but an athiest is not going to follow what YOU believe about Christ.


A true atheist should not even be considering what I believe Christ is, much less whether it should even be followed. But there are some "shadetree" atheists who believe, but want to play charades, because it is the safer position for them on this forum - at least they feel safer with that flock.




An athiest has their own opinions. There are many opinions that this Jesus character that is mentioned in the bible was merely a mortal man.


So you understand then that Christ is not Jesus and he is just a man. When someone says you are not Christ-like, they are talking about something besides what Jesus was and are referencing the spirit of God. If an atheist does not know God, then how can they logically tell what is "like God" and what is "not like God"?



Also, from what I have observed, many athiests have a fair amount of knowledge about scripture and I think what they mean when they are accusing you of not being very Christlike is that they think if you are as Christian as you say you are, then maybe you should act more like Christ the way he was in the bible.


If Jesus was not historical as many atheists claim, then they cannot judge a Christian according to acts, because they have no reference to any historical account or example - only words they claim are fictitious. The fact that they study scripture is proof they are called to God, for if not they would care less. I personally know God has spoken to them. Their struggle is internal.



That doesn't necessarily mean they believe in Christ or God, it's just a different way of people telling you to practice what you preach.


Thats what I do, but no one entirely wants to hear it. Perfect preaching means killers, pedophiles, liars, adulterers, idolaters, rapists, thieves, etc get salvation the same as anyone else. That is the essence of the gospel, but no one actually wants to hear that because they always believe they are better than these. When people compare the Old Testament God with being a liar and that I too do not practice what I preach - well I suppose I am being exalted by a whore. I am just waiting for her to wipe the oil off my feet with her hair.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 06:21 AM
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This thread is directed towards me, so I feel obligated to reply.


Originally posted by ben91069
To follow Christ actually makes you God.


Christians believe they are chosen by God. Because of my position, I could never have been chosen by God, so either I was deceived by Satan, or simply wrong, or I am a liar.

Whatever the case, I was deeply involved in the Church and learned the Scriptures. I learned interpretation and apology from the Christian perspective first, not from any atheists.

Although I considered myself an atheist before I became a Christian, I was a teenager, this was back in the eighties before the internet and I never learned anything about really being an atheist, it was a natural response to the behavior of Christians during the Reagan/Bush I era. When I did become a Christian, I claimed to be an ex-atheist, a term reviled by atheists today.

This is why I call myself a second order atheist, and I don't have much respect for what New Atheists today think they know about Christianity.

After listening to countless Christians accuse me of being misled by Satan by the temptation of being God, I must point out that, according to Christian doctrine, what Ben says is heresy and blasphemy. I point to the following Scriptures:

Genesis 3:5 (serpent speaking) ...and you will be like God...
Isaiah 14:14 ...I will make myself like the Most High...
Ezekiel 28:2 ...In the pride of your heart you say, I am a God...

Now, what you see here, is an atheist telling a "Christian" that he doesn't know as much about being a Christian as an atheist does. I can't tolerate how I am being ignored and persecuted on this board.


The bible has a few references about the validity of tradition, which is basically historical accounts.

Tradition in itself is cultural behavior. It has no truth value.


There is no proof of Jesus as a person.

Worth a star.


Either way, you cannot judge Christ unless you know him.

From a Christian perspective, the presumption of judging Christ is heresy and blasphemy.

Christians misunderstand what process is occurring in knowing Christ. In terms of the process, I know Christ just the same. This process however is not what Christians think it is. This can only be understood from a psychological perspective, and as it is widely known, being Christian is inversely proportional to such knowledge.

C



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Ben91069 I don't understand your point in your opening post in this thread.

Did an Atheist try to tell you that you aren't a Christian ?

Cheers xpert11.


Yes. In another thread. So instead of changing that thread into a different topic than it was meant to be, I thought I would carry that into a new thread here.

What was said was that I was not "Christ-like". Christianity is not the following of Jesus, but of the spirit of salvation. It does not rely on the acts of Jesus, but of the hope of faith in Christ, which is the spirit that dwelled in Christ.

When someone says I am not Christ-like, then I would expect that they know what the spirit of salvation is to be able to judge righteously. The only righteous judgment that saves the world is to forgive all sins. Anything other than that condemns the world to hell.

It's funny that the gospel I preach has been accused of condemning people to hell out of sheer stereotyping of the Christian religion. That is what religion has made of following Christ.

Anyway, I know what calls people and I know that the animals who came before man are on the open range attacking the sheep. I know that most atheists are just not sure of themselves when it comes to salvation. The speak about God, without knowing him only because they want to know him.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by Columbus
Christians believe they are chosen by God.


What is wrong with believing you are chosen by God?



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:07 AM
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I was going to just post one point at a time for you Columbus, because that would at least limit you to not divide a topic up into endless mini debates, but the stuff you said is so rich I just have to comment:


Originally posted by Columbus
After listening to countless Christians accuse me of being misled by Satan by the temptation of being God, I must point out that, according to Christian doctrine, what Ben says is heresy and blasphemy. I point to the following Scriptures:

Genesis 3:5 (serpent speaking) ...and you will be like God...
Isaiah 14:14 ...I will make myself like the Most High...
Ezekiel 28:2 ...In the pride of your heart you say, I am a God...


So you kinda went off and became atheist instead of defending the truth of the gospel, if I am to understand correctly what you are trying to say here? The way you worded it sounds like you were defending the truth (as Jesus) that following Christ makes you God, the church then called you a sinner and you got disgusted with them? Just curious.

The Jesus account predicts that is what happens. The unrighteous claim that God-hood is unattainable. They think this because of lack of faith. Funny that the church who claims the name of Jesus is most unfaithful.

About those scriptures. I have never been good with memorization. I am sure I could look them all up, but Genesis accounts that the serpent claims we will be like God if we know "Good and Evil", which was a lie. We are like God when we no longer differentiate between the two.



Now, what you see here, is an atheist telling a "Christian" that he doesn't know as much about being a Christian as an atheist does. I can't tolerate how I am being ignored and persecuted on this board.


All disputes and beliefs aside Columbus, you aren't really being persecuted at all on this board. I don't see how you really feel that way, but maybe I just can't see it.




The bible has a few references about the validity of tradition, which is basically historical accounts.

Tradition in itself is cultural behavior. It has no truth value.


I used to think that is what the bible meant, but I now believe it also extends into the the plight of science, which is based upon the study of cause and effects. Tradition in this sense means anything that causes effect in any way. If you give up on reactions caused by actions, then you can understand the truth of the gospel and accept divinity.




There is no proof of Jesus as a person.

Worth a star.


See, there is such a thing as a miracle.




Either way, you cannot judge Christ unless you know him.

From a Christian perspective, the presumption of judging Christ is heresy and blasphemy.


Not necessarily. The disciples questioned the authority and validity of Jesus testimony, although it may have only been a story, it is symbolic that judging the truth to discern what is truth is not blasphemous. In fact, the idea of judging Christ being some sort of sin is why most Christians stay like infants who can only drink from the teet.



Christians misunderstand what process is occurring in knowing Christ. In terms of the process, I know Christ just the same. This process however is not what Christians think it is. This can only be understood from a psychological perspective, and as it is widely known, being Christian is inversely proportional to such knowledge.


Well, at least we share the same sentiments about the organized church and religion. But when someone strolls along and says they believe in Christ, it is important to judge if they have been brainwashed or found something unique. I gave up on the church teaching 21 years ago, for the teaching was false, watered down, and hypocritical. Since then, the only guiding voice I have had is interpretation from within myself. It has not been from someone else ideas of what the scripture means. So if I am wrong, it is not because of the church. Maybe I am schizophrenic or deluded, but it isn't because of the Christian religion.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069
So you kinda went off and became atheist instead of defending the truth of the gospel,...

This is the same insult I get from all Christians. If I were still Christian, somebody else, and I had to respond to Columbus the Atheist on this board, I know exactly how I'd feel. Can you say the same?


The way you worded it sounds like you were defending the truth (as Jesus) that following Christ makes you God, the church then called you a sinner and you got disgusted with them? Just curious.

I didn't break with the church. What I told you was how I was taught, and how I ministered to others. I left the church by the reverse process of how I got into it, by understanding that process, the mind control process.

You consider yourself chosen? In an instant you were aware of this, you knew Christ in your heart, you were born again, Saved. This is called a psychotic break or snapping.


The unrighteous claim that God-hood is unattainable.

To be dependent on "oranges" forever and to reside in servitude at His feet, as is clearly written in Scripture is your fate, is not what I would equate with godhood.


They think this because of lack of faith.

Again, faith = ignorance. How many times?


...unfaithful.

Unfaithful to whom? The activities of the church are solely to control the congregation. Faith is the obligation of the membership to the church. It is an unbalanced relationship and one reason why there are so many denominations. The church can only have one wife, not Christ, but the various interpretations of Christ.

Ben, you have an interpretation, it may be unique, but so is every other denomination. The right to the word truth goes to the one with evidence in reality, not the most or least popular, not the width of the road. And you like the others have no evidence as you admit. There is simply no way to say that what you are saying is any more or less made-up than anyone else.

Why do you say truth to me?


...the serpent claims we will be like God if we know "Good and Evil", which was a lie.

It's not a lie and God confirms it as the very reason he must expel Adam and Eve. Scripture references are in this thread on BTS:
Applegate


We are like God when we no longer differentiate between the two.

Knowing good and evil myself, it doesn't give me the power to create the Earth. Something inherently untrue about that despite God's own claim.


...you aren't really being persecuted at all on this board.

Not by you.


I don't see how you really feel that way, but maybe I just can't see it.

You can't see it. I explained to you why. You don't know the language. You use it, but you don't understand it.


Tradition in this sense means anything that causes effect in any way.

If you want to misdefine tradition, you are starting down a slippery slope and may end up going down a terrible road to where I used to be and where some around here are now. If you are using a word differently from how ordinary people use it (as it says in the dictionary), you risk deceiving people, you are deceiving people, and who is the prince of that?


If you give up on reactions caused by actions, then you can understand the truth of the gospel and accept divinity.

What you are talking about is causality. Nothing in Gospel violates causality in context. If you break too many physical laws people wouldn't be able to follow the story, like a comic book with no plot continuity and superheroes and villains who can literally do anything and travel back and forth in time randomly. This is the slippery slope of supernatural belief.


Not necessarily. The disciples questioned the authority and validity of Jesus testimony, although it may have only been a story, it is symbolic that judging the truth to discern what is truth is not blasphemous.

Jesus was a young rabbi accused of blasphemy himself by authorities. Christ is the authority of the Christian Church. For a member of the church to question Christ is blasphemy.


In fact, the idea of judging Christ being some sort of sin is why most Christians stay like infants who can only drink from the teet.

You get a star.


Well, at least we share the same sentiments about the organized church and religion.

It seems so.


But when someone strolls along and says they believe in Christ, it is important to judge if they have been brainwashed or found something unique.

Finding something unique doesn't mean they haven't been misled even by their own desires.


I gave up on the church teaching 21 years ago, for the teaching was false, watered down, and hypocritical.

The most interesting stuff happened before the millennium, and again afterwards. The church is actually relatively weak at the moment. But I consider that opportunity not success.


Maybe I am schizophrenic or deluded, but it isn't because of the Christian religion.

I recommend reading the following article:
Bicameral Mind

C



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069
What is wrong with believing you are chosen by God?

Believing other people aren't. Arrogance.

C



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 09:15 AM
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LMAO if we don't believe in your god, how are we making it angry?

See, we say people aren't following their god because we have read and understand your holy book, see the inconsistencies, know what the message is much better than most of the religious people.

How is saying someone isn't being christlike when they aren't living by the tenets of their religion being "untrue" to atheism?

If an attorney does something unethical, I don't have to practice law to report him to the BAR and say he isn't being a good attorney. If a doctor screws up and I sue him for malpractice and say he's not being a good doctor, I don't have to be a doctor to do that either.

Same applies for xians.

Sad but true, a great many atheists know xianity better than xians do. Which is why we think it's a crock.

But if we're going to be accusing people of stuff, I have a counter accusation: xians put too much of their personal self worth into what other people think of their religion. Who cares what we think of your god? It should only matter what you think.

[edit for syntax error]

[edit on 30-12-2007 by MajorMalfunction]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069

So you understand then that Christ is not Jesus and he is just a man. When someone says you are not Christ-like, they are talking about something besides what Jesus was and are referencing the spirit of God. If an atheist does not know God, then how can they logically tell what is "like God" and what is "not like God"?


Why do they have to be refferring to the spirit of God when asking you to be more Christ like? From what I understand Jesus was a philantrophist, a philosopher, a teacher and an all over kind and loving man. A human being can not be like that? You need to believe in God to be like that? Maybe when people are saying that you need to be more Christ-like, they feel that you are not having a kind and understanding attitude toward your fellow man. Correct me if I am wrong as I do not have a complete understanding of the scriptures (and for the record I am not a Christian nor am I an athiest), but I think I heard somewhere that Jesus said that we should try to act as he did.

I don't know you so I don't know how you have acted with the athiests around the forum. These are just my opinions and observations as to what they might mean when they are telling you that you are not very Christ like.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 09:41 PM
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Ben91069 bear in mind that I can only speak for myself on this matter . My Christian friends don't try to force there beliefs on me and I don't try to reason with them when it comes to matters of faith. A member of my family who is a Christian certainly did some unchristian things but I'm not going to say if he is a Christian or not.

At the end of the day if some one is ill rational enough to subscribe to a system that relies on faith there is no point in lowering myself to that level for such a pointless debate.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069
reply to post by snowflake_obsidian
 


To follow Christ actually makes you God. That is what the true calling of Christ is; a calling to remember your God-hood. There are probably a couple few people on here who are part of the division, but there is no way to tell that yet.

The bible has a few references about the validity of tradition, which is basically historical accounts. There is no proof of Jesus as a person. It was meant that way to not spoil the truth of the gospel of the spirit - Christ.

Either way, you cannot judge Christ unless you know him.




I beg to differ with everything you said. Crazy logic, to me. Do not bother with Jesus actually being a real person, but jump right on him being a god. Without Jesus being a real man, Christianity is worthless, and how do you get off calling yourself a god, when even Jesus did not make that claim?

[edit on 31-12-2007 by jmdewey60]



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by Columbus
You consider yourself chosen? In an instant you were aware of this, you knew Christ in your heart, you were born again, Saved. This is called a psychotic break or snapping.


Actually I thought I knew Christ at the beginning that I accepted him (about 7 y.o.), but I did not understand spiritual things very well and had many many doubts about it over the years, because my faith wasn't solid. It wasn't until I was around the age of 24 or 25 that I was completely convicted that I had been chosen. This isn't a psychotic break either. I have had one of those and this is not psychosis. It may appear that way to an observer, but the difference is that in a psychotic episode you really don't know what you are doing or thinking. You aren't really in control of your thoughts. What I believe now is a conscious decision, even though it sounds irrational.



posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
From what I understand Jesus was a philantrophist, a philosopher, a teacher and an all over kind and loving man. A human being can not be like that? You need to believe in God to be like that? Maybe when people are saying that you need to be more Christ-like, they feel that you are not having a kind and understanding attitude toward your fellow man. Correct me if I am wrong as I do not have a complete understanding of the scriptures (and for the record I am not a Christian nor am I an athiest), but I think I heard somewhere that Jesus said that we should try to act as he did.


True, but insofar as we are able. It can be argued that Jesus was not any of those qualities you described. The pharisees thought he was the devil, for example. That is why he spoke so much of the gospel that "all sins are forgiven", because no matter how hard you try to be moral, good, whatever to another you will always fail in some manner. It is impossible to be perfect. Maybe there is someone who does not think I am being un-Christlike, but surely there are those who see it differently. The important thing is to love others. If I have not condemned someone and did my best guided by the spiritual reasoning of what love is towards others, then I have done my job. I know it is especially difficult to see on the internet when you only use words, but that is how it is.

Columbus made a comment lately to the effect that he is caring and has an open ear. Something like that. On here, he does not seem that way to me (and I am not trying to insult you just using an example). He may be the most kind and compassionate person one has ever met, but it is hard to understand or know from an impersonal medium such as the internet. It is the same way with me. You cannot really know if I am Christ like unless you first know what Christ is and what is in my heart.



I don't know you so I don't know how you have acted with the athiests around the forum. These are just my opinions and observations as to what they might mean when they are telling you that you are not very Christ like.



Well, I have probably in the past gotten testy with them, but I know they have also done the same on this board. I think that is just normal human behavior. No one is exempt from partaking of emotion. I have learned since joining ATS a better understanding of my own spirituality and faith because of interacting with atheists. It has tested me to give me strength in my faith. If I have offended any of them, then I apologize I never intended to make anyone angry.



posted on Jan, 1 2008 @ 02:56 AM
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Wow. Ben reminds me of the reason that, while I can't make judgement on whether there is a God, I will not participate in organized religion. He doesn't even actually read or consider anyone's reponses.

Ben's the type of guy that when you ask, "Why should I believe in God?" He responds with, "Because the Bible says so!"

Cmon Ben. Jesus does seem to be a real person. Not to many argue that. The question is whether he was actually a God. Either way, his teachings are still there. So, if someone says you are not "like" Jesus, I would imagine that they are telling you that you are contradictory to what Jesus taught, Ben.

...it's not all that complicated.



posted on Jan, 1 2008 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by Sublime620
Wow. Ben reminds me of the reason that, while I can't make judgement on whether there is a God, I will not participate in organized religion. He doesn't even actually read or consider anyone's reponses.


Sure I do. Which of the possible statements should I respond to? All of them? How would I possibly be able to give each response the time it deserves to be deemed considerate of other responses?



Ben's the type of guy that when you ask, "Why should I believe in God?" He responds with, "Because the Bible says so!"


I've not once used that argument - ever. I've quoted the bible before as a basis for why I believe, but never have I claimed that belief in God is validated by a book.



Cmon Ben. Jesus does seem to be a real person. Not to many argue that. The question is whether he was actually a God. Either way, his teachings are still there. So, if someone says you are not "like" Jesus, I would imagine that they are telling you that you are contradictory to what Jesus taught, Ben.


Jesus seems to have existed historically to me about as much as the tooth fairy. I do not even believe Abraham Lincoln was real, because I subscribe to the matrix theory of matter anyway. What I do care about is the actual message of Christ. It does not make any difference by whom or when it was told, but that it is available and I believe in that message. About Jesus being God, you must be confusing Jesus with Christ. Flesh and blood cannot be God. Furthermore I was never told I was not like Jesus. I was told I was not Christ-like, there is a difference. Jesus was a man, Christ is the spirit of salvation.



...it's not all that complicated.


It is simpler than even you would imagine.

[edit on 1-1-2008 by ben91069]



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