The hope of the atheists - what is yours?

In another thread, an atheist mentioned that they are content with their beliefs and that they know that when its over its over. Fair enough.

My question is for both atheists, and for believers alike what they think about this. Atheists believe there is no God, so pretty much everything they will do is going to be whatever happens between now and death. Their hope is to make the most of what life they do have, with no way to correct any problems in life that may arise. For example, if tomorrow they get into a car crash and must live the rest of life being paralyzed then so be it. They are resolved to be content with that and never walk again - ever. They are content with death to the point that they will never know their parents, themselves, or offspring once any of these are gone. That's it.

So, even if you are in control now, what if life becomes unbearable where you do not fulfill what you think you will? I think a lot of atheists feel comfortable in their beliefs just because they have hope that they will achieve whatever goals they have in life. Beyond that, they could care less and why would they if they are not going to be around?

What if your desire is for your children to have a better future than you, and you know that if you do not achieve a certain accomplishment in this life they will never have it? How does that make you feel as an atheist if you cannot do any more after your gone to fix the problems of the world that we are creating right now?

There is only so much good will and advice you can give to your loved ones and those you care about . At some point the people around have to make there own decisions . Whether or not the persons decision making takes them down a good path is entirely up to them. I can sleep at night because I am comfortable with my beliefs and the knowledge that I have done my best to put those around me on the right path.

Originally posted by ben91069
Their hope is to make the most of what life they do have, with no way to correct any problems in life that may arise. For example, if tomorrow they get into a car crash and must live the rest of life being paralyzed then so be it. They are resolved to be content with that and never walk again - ever.

Who said never? Ever heard of a guy named Christopher Reeve? If he had lived longer, he could have walked, and what he did makes a difference. He sure wasn't just praying!

They are content with death to the point that they will never know their parents, themselves, or offspring once any of these are gone. That's it.

You need to learn some psychology. It doesn't matter whether you are atheist or believer, all humans react emotionally the same way to death. I've never seen a Christian walk out of a funeral saying, meh whatever, I'll see them again, don't matter. Grieving and mourning are a constant.

...what if life becomes unbearable where you do not fulfill what you think you will?

You don't need to be inured to not be able to fulfill your dreams. Just getting to a certain middle age rules out a lot of dreams people have. Anyone tortures themselves if they insist on re-imagining the past, what could have been.

I think a lot of atheists feel comfortable in their beliefs just because they have hope that they will achieve whatever goals they have in life.

Why insult people you don't understand? You think that if I start believing in God again, I'll feel happy again because I'll think I'll be able to do the things I can't now? That's just wishful thinking and you know it. Wishful thinking is satisfaction for the lazy man.

Beyond that, they could care less and why would they if they are not going to be around?

Actually this quote way more applies to Christians than atheists. They think they've got the future worked out because of prophecy. The future for them has no inherent risk in it, they are Saved. Atheists see Christians as a threat to the future, our children and grandchildren, resulting from starting wars (Iraq, Iran, Syria) to force the Great War, Armageddon, to force Jesus to return, and to waste all resources and destroy the environment, the good stewards of the earth that they are.

What if your desire is for your children to have a better future than you, and you know that if you do not achieve a certain accomplishment in this life they will never have it?

Dumb. My parents were idiots. They couldn't afford college for me and didn't even care. Oh look at his grades, he should go to college! Meh, pass the potatoes. Yeah, children can take care of themselves, put themselves through college, get good jobs. Then the children raised with everything are lazy and spoiled and don't amount to nothing because they never had to work for it.

How does that make you feel as an atheist if you cannot do any more after your gone to fix the problems of the world that we are creating right now?

The world of the living is the business of the living. What, I should be a ghost and haunt future presidents to scare them to decent foreign policy? How is that different from an idiot president who thinks he's hearding god now?

C

ben91069 your comments are unfair. You assume that atheists have no moral goals in life. I know several that do. Including myself, I want to make life better for my family. I learned from the mistakes of other and I'm going out into life striving for whatever I want.
Why do you think all athiests believe there is no afterlife and there's no point to anything before death? I don't believe in any god, but I believe in a spiritual world after death. I believe in reincarnation, ghosts, and such; so I refuse to live an immoral life that you suggest athiests live.

The atheists I know are more ethical than most of the Xians, who think all they have to do is ask forgiveness when they've "sinned" and all is forgiven.

What does it say about someone that they can only be an upright human being and do the right thing if they think they're being watched by an invisible scorekeeper?

I much prefer people who do right because it's right, and not because the sky fairy is watching.

A lot of interesting responses and I appreciate them. Columbus, I do think you misunderstood where I am coming from with my OP and overreacted a bit. Unfortunately, I am one of the few Christians who understand where atheists fit in. I do not abhor your beliefs, nor reject your disbelief. I do not even believe anyone should be preaching the gospel to you, although it is inevitable to occur.

Shadow, yes I may have directed what I said to those who think this is it. Count yourself out if you do believe in an afterworld, but I will not even go to discuss what type of spirituality that is. I am guessing it is probably pretty good.

MM, I think you are only seeing "Xians" the way you choose to see them. I see the ones you're talking of and I see those who do things differently. I fully understand why they are labeled hypocrites, and misguided, but I have also seen just as much of people who are or claim to be secular. In fact, I think most people are hypocrites, because I know I sure have been on many occasions in my own life. It's not hard to see all that in others, and anyone, religion aside.

Originally posted by ben91069
Columbus, I do think you misunderstood where I am coming from with my OP and overreacted a bit.

If I over-reacted I urge you to prove it.

I see in your SIG that you feel there are seven atheists "shaking" each of you, and I wonder where you get such a ridiculously skewed number.

And I wonder why you think you are incapable of shaking me.

Maybe it's because you're house is built on sand, and mine is built on bedrock.

Unfortunately, I am one of the few Christians who understand where atheists fit in.

Again, not over-reacting, this statement is just riddled with holes. Why do you consider it UNfortunate you have understanding? And what makes you think you have any understanding, because frankly I'm not seeing it. And most importantly, why is there even a question whether atheists should fit it in? Don't you see we're struggling for equality and basic respect and still not getting it?

I do not abhor your beliefs, nor reject your disbelief. I do not even believe anyone should be preaching the gospel to you, although it is inevitable to occur.

Yes, Ben, you're behavior is unChristlike and I'm surprised why you continue these games.

In fact, I think most people are hypocrites, because I know I sure have been on many occasions in my own life. It's not hard to see all that in others, and anyone, religion aside.

Identifying hypocrisy and other negative traits in oneself requires self-awareness. Devotion, faith, loyalty are contrary to this individualism. Faith always stands in the way of genuine observations, fact gathering, truth seeking, since it presumes the end result and impedes criticism.

As a married man I can tell you this: devotion and faith and loyalty are really harmful to the relationship. These words are only brought out when the situation is already bad.

C

We weren't discussing other people, Ben, just Xians vs. atheists. Pulling in other groups is misdirection in this discussion.

Of the Xians and the atheists I know personally IRL, the atheists are by far the more ethical and clear-headed. What I see on the board just reinforces what I see using my reason and logic out here in the larger world.

I don't set out to fit people into my paradigm, I look at a situation and analyze it and see where it belongs after being examined.

Xians, for whatever reason (and I believe it has to do with being constantly barraged with backwards logic and "faith") seem to have forgotten what reason is for, and how to use it. Which is unfortunate, but I suppose it is necessary in order to stay in the delusional trap that is religion.

I personally think it is a great waste of mental ability, whether god-given as xians claim, or naturally evolved, as makes more sense. Either way, a mind is a terrible thing to waste, to paraphrase anti-drug propaganda. After all, religion is just another drug.

I'm wondering what people of other religions would think of this thread. I mean religions such as Buddhism, Wiccan, Paganism, Jewish, Muslim, ect. We don't hear much from these religions.
I'd like to know what they think of the statements in this thread. I think their responses would be interesting.

Originally posted by Columbus
If I over-reacted I urge you to prove it.

I can't actually prove it Columbus and you should know that. It just seems that when someone accuses me of insulting them when I had no intentions of doing so, that is an over reaction.

I see in your SIG that you feel there are seven atheists "shaking" each of you, and I wonder where you get such a ridiculously skewed number.

It is nothing more than a half-witted joke that is partially true. The seven is symbolic for "perfection" or "perfect". Simply put, it was funner to write than just saying a lot of non-believers will be out to challenge you if you believe in God. You take signature lines way too seriously. You must be on a mission.

And I wonder why you think you are incapable of shaking me.

Maybe it's because you're house is built on sand, and mine is built on bedrock.

Why would I want to change your beliefs? Besides, true faith is a solid foundation because it does not rely on reason. You are trying to measure inches with a volt meter. The two are not compatible. It is the mistake that people who claim faith try to "prove" their belief that they come under the scrutiny of reason. I am safe from that.

Unfortunately, I am one of the few Christians who understand where atheists fit in.

Again, not over-reacting, this statement is just riddled with holes. Why do you consider it UNfortunate you have understanding?

Do you normally examine every word to make sure it meets the high demands of your scrutiny? You do know most people write fluently as if they were speaking, unless of course they are writing a technical manual - something this is not. If you must know, it is unfortunate because if more Christians had understanding of the why and how's they would not be so presumptuous of God and less fundamental of the scripture. But maybe you enjoy the way they are, who am I to say?

And what makes you think you have any understanding, because frankly I'm not seeing it.

I use the exact same qualifications about understanding that you do. Without reading a book, hearing it second-hand, or seeing a verifiable experiment, how do you know sub-atomic particles exist? You've surely taken that on faith haven't you, but you personally cannot and will probably never show me one or prove they exist. See how you rely on the validity of science much the same way you claim Christians are not allowed to use their bible as a source of teaching?

And most importantly, why is there even a question whether atheists should fit it in? Don't you see we're struggling for equality and basic respect and still not getting it?

Sorry, I don't remember me asking if atheists should fit in. I assumed you did fit in. Maybe you should stop for a moment and consider that the only question I posed was where do they (atheists) place there hope in light of uncertainty if they cannot change things if they fail in their goals. I think that is a simple enough question. It certainly does not infer that I think atheists are a minority, or an excluded sector of society. In fact, I personally feel most people would qualify as being atheist, so shazzam!! You are probably a majority and didn't even know it.

I do not abhor your beliefs, nor reject your disbelief. I do not even believe anyone should be preaching the gospel to you, although it is inevitable to occur.

Yes, Ben, you're behavior is unChristlike and I'm surprised why you continue these games.

Did you meet him? I am wondering if he told you about me then.

In fact, I think most people are hypocrites, because I know I sure have been on many occasions in my own life. It's not hard to see all that in others, and anyone, religion aside.

Identifying hypocrisy and other negative traits in oneself requires self-awareness. Devotion, faith, loyalty are contrary to this individualism. Faith always stands in the way of genuine observations, fact gathering, truth seeking, since it presumes the end result and impedes criticism.

Not so. That is why there are hypocrites. There are many people who often self evaluate themselves and realize through faith that God loves them despite their weaknesses. You assume that faith makes one oblivious to facts, yet fail to explain how anyone would even be able to function if faith actually did that.

As a married man I can tell you this: devotion and faith and loyalty are really harmful to the relationship. These words are only brought out when the situation is already bad.

(sarcasm on) Yes, a loving relationship is helped along better when there is cheating, treachery, and backstabbing! (sarcasm off)

It's strange then that any couple I've known who have been together for 50+ years and sometime until one passes on, all encompass those ideals you mention are harmful. Maybe they got lucky and you are just having a bad day

Now since I recollect your MO from your previous posts here on BTS, I must insist that you quit trying to derail this thread by questioning the topic itself or my faith. That is not what this thread is about. If you want to share your reasons as an atheist of how you feel about the concept that you may not have recourse over your actions if you fall short of your life goals, then by all means tell us. Respectfully, you can U2U me if you feel you want to know more about the gospel truth of our Lord Jesus.

Originally posted by ShadowedRedemption
I'm wondering what people of other religions would think of this thread. I mean religions such as Buddhism, Wiccan, Paganism, Jewish, Muslim, ect. We don't hear much from these religions.
I'd like to know what they think of the statements in this thread. I think their responses would be interesting.

I've heard WiseSheep repeatedly make extremely offensive comments about Islam and Muslims.

If there were fundy Muslims here too, it would be Holy War for sure. Then they would be demonstrating what we atheists have been saying all along.

C

Originally posted by ben91069
I can't actually prove it Columbus and you should know that. It just seems that when someone accuses me of insulting them when I had no intentions of doing so, that is an over reaction.

And I'll do one better and tell you why. You're not an indoctrinated Christian. You don't understand their language, the code-words, or that the secret meanings can be insulting. Which again raises my question, why do you play their games?

It is nothing more than a half-witted joke that is partially true. ... You take signature lines way too seriously. You must be on a mission.

We're being threatened, if you consider avoiding death a mission. Shaking Christians might just save all our lives. If they feel they've truly built on bedrock, Armageddon awaits us, and it doesn't turn out the way it says in Scripture.

Why would I want to change your beliefs?

To save me from Hellfire. If you don't hug me right now I'm jumping into the fire. I've got my bathing suit on.

Besides, true faith is a solid foundation because it does not rely on reason.

Faith is solid because criticisms are lost in the mail. Faith is a wall of ignorance built around silly beliefs that have no hope of withstanding the glaring light of reality, let alone the shallow words of some pesky atheists.

You are trying to measure inches with a volt meter.

I'm going to have to go with wrong on this one Ben. Faith is ignorance, and I think I've explained that to you enough times.

If a man believes he can jump a chasm, he jumps, falls and dies. If the same man has faith he can jump the same chasm, he doesn't need to prove it, faith is enough. The truth stands in contradiction to faith. Even if the man could in actuality jump the chasm,

I am safe from that.

I'm going to have to disappoint you.

Do you normally examine every word to make sure it meets the high demands of your scrutiny?

Yes. These words are searchable on Google and may outlive you.

...they would not be so presumptuous of God and less fundamental of the scripture.

They would not be Christians anymore, they'd be like me. It's not as bad as you think.

I use the exact same qualifications about understanding that you do. Without reading a book, hearing it second-hand, or seeing a verifiable experiment, how do you know sub-atomic particles exist?

If I'm completely surrounded by a barrier, but I can’t perceive the barrier in any way, is the barrier real? If I'm not surrounded by a barrier, but I believe that I am, I might be conditioned to act as though the barrier is real. If the barrier is real, I might be conditioned to act as though it is not real, but I would need to deny the evidence of it. This is the true nature of religious belief (faith) from a semantic perspective. This is how science wins out over faith.

Christians are not allowed to use their bible as a source of teaching?

Because the Bible is hearsay and as such not truth. They systematically purged alternate sources of history, leaving no corroboration, for obvious reasons and knowing the consequences prepared for them. Science is nothing without corroboration and peer review is core.

Sorry, I don't remember me asking if atheists should fit in. I assumed you did fit in.

>> Unfortunately, I am one of the few Christians who understand where atheists fit in.
Which I take to mean you understand there's a problem (there is), and I asked you why you think that?

Maybe you should stop for a moment and consider that the only question I posed was where do they (atheists) place there hope in light of uncertainty if they cannot change things if they fail in their goals.

People tell me to be careful with my words. You should too. I don't see Christians can change things either. You see that faith removes uncertainty, it does this because it is ignorance of uncertainty. That is proof.

In fact, I personally feel most people would qualify as being atheist, so shazzam!! You are probably a majority and didn't even know it.

I have a broader experience and a broader view. I am a second order atheist while the majority of people in the world are first order atheists. Christians like to claim to be former atheists. There is nothing surprising about this. Every infant is an atheist. Then they learn cultural theism, cartoon god, then they go to college and learn there's no god, then they get saved by CCC, then maybe they become like me.

Did you meet him? I am wondering if he told you about me then.

That's my question to you. You don't believe me, so it could be someone else's name, but Jesus can still tell you mine.

Not so. That is why there are hypocrites.

A person can only act hypocritically if they can't make the connection between their own actions and the actions of others that they criticize. Since they are obviously aware of the ones they DO criticize, they must not be aware of their own. Not being aware of ones own actions is a symptom of a lack of self-awareness. I recommend that you study some psychology.

There are many people who often self evaluate themselves and realize through faith that God loves them despite their weaknesses.

I'm not associating faith with lack of self-awareness. I've lived that argument.

You assume that faith makes one oblivious to facts, yet fail to explain how anyone would even be able to function if faith actually did that.

Faith is not all-encompassing, it's selective. Particular beliefs are collected and protected by faith from the facts, not everything.

(sarcasm on) Yes, a loving relationship is helped along better when there is cheating, treachery, and backstabbing! (sarcasm off)

It's strange then that any couple I've known who have been together for 50+ years and sometime until one passes on, all encompass those ideals you mention are harmful. Maybe they got lucky and you are just having a bad day

People who are married and do not break their vows do not have cause to raise the issue of loyalty. That only occurs when something else is wrong, morally speaking. How would you characterize a whistle-blower? Disloyal?

C

reply to post by Columbus


So you really don't read anyone's posts at all but just want an argument completely unrelated to the topic of this thread. I made it quite clear that this thread is not arguing my faith. How do you expect at all for anyone to listen to you if you cannot comprehend a simple instruction? Stay on topic, please.

To respond to the topic and your posts, Ben.
First, since I do not believe in an afterlife, I have to do everything I can to help my family, my community and humanity as much as I can while I'm here. That means being strongly ethical and proactive. My hope is, that after I'm gone, the world will be a better place for my having been in it.

Second, you have often stated in your posts that you, unlike most cristians, understand atheists. Well, that's a self-evaluation, and self-evaluations are notoriously inaccurate. From everything you've written that I've read, I'd have to say you don't really seem to have quite as much understanding as you think you do. I suggest a bit more humility about what you believe is your insight.

Occam

Ever heard of a guy named Christopher Reeve? If he had lived longer, he could have walked, and what he did makes a difference. He sure wasn't just praying!

So, if he were alive, stem cell research would (without a doubt) have him fully
recovered?
WOW.

You need to learn some psychology. It doesn't matter whether you are atheist or believer, all humans react emotionally the same way to death. I've never seen a Christian walk out of a funeral saying, meh whatever, I'll see them again, don't matter. Grieving and mourning are a constant.

Not so!
When my christian grandaddy died, I and many others knew where he was and were peaceful.
His son (my uncle and favorite pastor) preached the funeral.

Why insult people you don't understand? You think that if I start believing in God again, I'll feel happy again because I'll think I'll be able to do the things I can't now? That's just wishful thinking and you know it. Wishful thinking is satisfaction for the lazy man.

It's also known as 'HOPE'.
Also 'faith without works is dead'!

Actually this quote way more applies to Christians than atheists. They think they've got the future worked out because of prophecy. The future for them has no inherent risk in it, they are Saved. Atheists see Christians as a threat to the future, our children and grandchildren, resulting from starting wars (Iraq, Iran, Syria) to force the Great War, Armageddon, to force Jesus to return, and to waste all resources and destroy the environment, the good stewards of the earth that they are.

Have you researched this AT ALL???
So you think the average 'Joe' just wanted to go to Iraq to start a holy war? To bring JESUS back? Not to stop what we were being told was a dictator with chemical and biological weapons? (which wasn't true) AND To waste resources to boot?
America was co-erced by emotions into Iraq.
Helping the down-trodden! Do you think that it's evil to stop what you think is another Hitler?

Dumb. My parents were idiots. They couldn't afford college for me and didn't even care. Oh look at his grades, he should go to college! Meh, pass the potatoes. Yeah, children can take care of themselves, put themselves through college, get good jobs. Then the children raised with everything are lazy and spoiled and don't amount to nothing because they never had to work for it.

Look, maybe YOU'RE the one that's supposed to help yourself.
Did you ask your parents for help with college?
There are grants and loans.....

You shouldn't denigrate your parents.

The world of the living is the business of the living. What, I should be a ghost and haunt future presidents to scare them to decent foreign policy? How is that different from an idiot president who thinks he's hearding god now?C

Do you think leaders don't USE religion for their own means?

[edit on 29-12-2007 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by Occam

Second, you have often stated in your posts that you, unlike most cristians, understand atheists.

If I ever said it that way, I apologize. What I meant is that my faith includes a salvation for all (including atheists) and does not exclude anyone based on disbelief. Even Thomas in the NT was not exiled for disbelief - reprimanded a little maybe, bot not exiled. I can empathize with you but no two people are alike either. I can do this, because I have had times in my life when perhaps I felt that there were no God.

Whatever it is that you feel I don't understand, you may be right. All anyone can do is get feedback through others and refine the process of self-evaluation.

Despite Ben's advice, I don't feel restricted that I can't defend myself against a comment simply because it is off-topic. The very subject of this thread is about MY hopes.

Clearskies made a comment about Hope vs Wishful Thinking. One of the promises of the Christian faith is hope and so being atheists, it seems a valid question what sort of hope we could have without God.

My contention is that Christ and the Bible offer no hope, but only wishful thinking. To support that, I must distinguish these concepts.

I use the word hope all the time. Every time I use it, it implies I or others have done all that we practically can and leave the rest to nature (or individuals who may not care).

Originally posted by Clearskies
So, if he were alive, stem cell research would (without a doubt) have him fully recovered?
WOW.

Reeve already had some sensation and movement at the time he died. My wife was very inspired by him. My question to you is what should cause me to doubt? Your pastor?

When my christian grandaddy died, I and many others knew where he was and were peaceful.

I suggested you do some research on the psychology of grieving. I don't know what kind of relationship you had with your granddad, but if you knew you wouldn't see him for many years, that alone should have caused you some grief at least. If you didn't feel even that, maybe you're a psychopath.

Also 'faith without works is dead'!

This doesn't tell me you know what it means, it just sounds dogmatic. Genuine hope, rather than wishful thinking, could take the form of works, but works can also serve other purposes including masking insecurity and propaganda for the church's charity image.

Have you researched this AT ALL???

I lived it.

So you think the average 'Joe' just wanted to go to Iraq to start a holy war?

Joe supported Iraq because he's got to work for a living, feels threatened, and doesn't have time to debate the finer intellectual social aspects of it, so he accepts what he reads in the newspapers and sees on TV and believes what President Bush tells him needs to be done from a secret national security perspective.

To bring JESUS back?

Everything that the U.S. does in the Middle East can be used to defend a point of view of starting Armageddon, whether the troops stay or leave will have virtually the same consequences. Anyone who professes eschatology (end-of-the-worldism) desires and welcomes Armageddon, while those of us who do not, see Armageddon and the ultimate annihilation of all humans as something to be taken seriously and consciously avoided.

Not to stop what we were being told was a dictator with chemical and biological weapons? (which wasn't true)

No one I know ever believed any of that from the very beginning. I've met 'joes' before though.

AND To waste resources to boot?

To justify the U.S. increasing investment in the military which had gone down during the Clinton Administration.

Do you think that it's evil to stop what you think is another Hitler?

I don't see anyone with Hitler's charisma. Not Hussein, not Bush. If you're looking for the Anti-Christ, he would be someone genuinely charismatic, like Hitler. Bush was never charismatic. Sure, he seems like a 'joe' but that only appeals to 'joes'. Everybody else knows he's an idiot. Nobody thought that of Hitler. Think Fidel Castro if Kennedy hadn't contained him.

Look, maybe YOU'RE the one that's supposed to help yourself.

Doesn't sound like a sound philosophy at all.

Did you ask your parents for help with college?

What part of idiot didn't you understand? They never had any money. Still don't today. And I can't give them any, because they live in a shack in a bad neighborhood and get robbed regularly.

There are grants and loans.....

There's also hard work. I did get a partial scholarship and I avoided a life-sucking student loan.

You shouldn't denigrate your parents.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to offend God. You know all my parents did to end up responsible for me and how much God approves of that.

Do you think leaders don't USE religion for their own means?

I'd say that's all religion is about. Why should anyone force their beliefs to conform with a group? To lend support to the leaders of that group. The same thing can be said about politicians and political parties.

Which leads us to why I do what I do. The use of mind control by religious groups. Cults. There is no way anyone would seek Armageddon (their own death and destruction) when the underlying purpose of religion is to suppress the fear of death, except through mind control.

Sure, Armageddon seems cool in the movies, but you'd have a whole different perspective if it were really imminent. Part of the explanation of the rise of the religious right today is the end of the Cold War and perceived threat of WWIII with Russia. People were afraid it would really happen. Now they want it to.

C

I use the word hope all the time. Every time I use it, it implies I or others have done all that we practically can and leave the rest to nature (or individuals who may not care).

Do you think that's what the mennonites do?

Reeve already had some sensation and movement at the time he died. My wife was very inspired by him. My question to you is what should cause me to doubt? Your pastor?

I'm sorry to hear about your wife,
Why do people think embryonic stem cells have more potential, when they have caused tumors and ADULT stem cells have actually been viable?

I suggested you do some research on the psychology of grieving. I don't know what kind of relationship you had with your granddad, but if you knew you wouldn't see him for many years, that alone should have caused you some grief at least. If you didn't feel even that, maybe you're a psychopath.

He was a long time christian with arthritus, and he died with a smile on his face.
no, I am not psychotic, but, years ago I was diagnosed with agoraphobia, Bi-polar Manic depression, And I had pschotic features, because I heard a 'RADIO" in my head and I wanted to kill my co-workers. NOT KIDDING.
That's been 14 years.

Also 'faith without works is dead'!

Everything that the U.S. does in the Middle East can be used to defend a point of view of starting Armageddon, whether the troops stay or leave will have virtually the same consequences. Anyone who professes eschatology (end-of-the-worldism) desires and welcomes Armageddon, while those of us who do not, see Armageddon and the ultimate annihilation of all humans as something to be taken seriously and consciously avoided.

I don't know ANYONE who welcomes Armageddon!

I don't see anyone with Hitler's charisma. Not Hussein, not Bush. If you're looking for the Anti-Christ, he would be someone genuinely charismatic, like Hitler. Bush was never charismatic. Sure, he seems like a 'joe' but that only appeals to 'joes'. Everybody else knows he's an idiot. Nobody thought that of Hitler. Think Fidel Castro if Kennedy hadn't contained him.

WE were told that he (Hussein, NOT Bush) was another HITLER WITH weapons of mass destruction.

Still don't today. And I can't give them any, because they live in a shack in a bad neighborhood and get robbed regularly.

I'm sorry your parents weren't great, My biological dad disowned all three of his daughters after my mother divorced him and he died when I was around three. I don't even know where he's buried, but I forgive him and I would love to meet him ONE DAY.



[edit on 30-12-2007 by Clearskies]

[edit on 30-12-2007 by Clearskies]

Ben, in reply to your original post,

I think we share many hopes -- to make the world a better place, for our children to be healthy and lead productive lives.

Children don't lose hope when they learn there isn't a Santa Claus. In fact, the presents mean more, not less.

Originally posted by Clearskies

I don't know ANYONE who welcomes Armageddon!

Just because you don't personally know anyone, does not mean there are not people out there who actively welcome Armageddon. Don't not be so naive to think that the world revolves around the small group of people at your church.

WE were told that he (Hussein, NOT Bush) was another HITLER WITH weapons of mass destruction.

You shouldn't believe everything you are told since 80% of the time you are hearing false or incomplete information.



[edit on 30-12-2007 by ShadowedRedemption]