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Income Taxes....are they legit, or unconstitutional?

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posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 11:16 AM
We have to pay taxes....duh, the question is how we pay them and when we should pay them. We are forced to pay them for things we dont use or support like wars and certain institutions that are corrupt. Therefore, the money is squandered throughout our entire beuracracy.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 11:18 AM
reply to post by GUICE2

I totally agree with you on that. I believe canada does have it easier than the states. Especially when we don't live on war all the time. The one issue I don't agree with, is the fact that churches, pretty much the same as government, do not have to pay taxes. It all makes sense to me, that churches and government rule the world, yet when you get people with open minds like us to prove them wrong, they get mad. I may be crazy, who knows, but I surely can't wait till 2012 to see what really happens to the government and religions.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 11:46 AM
You know what....the 16th amendment doesnt say anything about the IRS. It actually specifically mentions congress as the entity to collect the income taxes so whats the deal? Are they one in the same? This whole issue is just so damn dirty....they reversed section 9.4 to include the income tax which is a direct tax and there is no reasoning behind it. Where is the case law determining that decision? Is there case law?

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:38 PM
Canada has a huuuuuge income tax and way more taxes than the Americans have to pay just so we can be one place above them on the list of industrialized nations' health care. They fully instituted a private bank (The Royal Bank of Canada) to replace our government owned bank (Bank of Canada) in the mid 1980's. That's why we aren't in as much debt as the USA because they have been with the FED for almost 100 years now.
With that said, Canada follows the same debt system as the USA, where our private bank prints of money and the interest goes to the people, and the people's income tax goes to pay off the interest to the private bank (or NATIONAL DEBT). The debt just slowly grows bigger and bigger no matter how much income tax we have to pay them.

Here's a lesson on income tax starting in Canada Canadian Income Tax (Youtube)

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 02:06 PM
reply to post by Trauma

Wow...i didnt think it was the same way for you guys up there. Yet at least yo uhave these social services that bring some legitimacy to taxes over all. Here we dont have social healthcare and have to pay out of pocket which in turn puts us at the mercy of all pharmaceutical companies.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 03:24 PM
I had no idea it was the same way as well. All I know is, I'm tired of living under government rules. I never use health care, because I don't go to hospitals. Don't even use my work benefits.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 04:32 PM
I love when people say "oh look there goes our tax dollars on something stupid..." To the OP, You agree that we need to pay taxes so why do you care what those taxes are used for? Do you really know what they are all used for? Personally I feel most of us dont know what taxes are really used for and shouldnt know...If you live in the USA you should pay taxes plain and simple...So if we pay taxes every year pretty much the same every year what does it matter what the taxes are used for? Most likely they will be used for either good things or waisted on unimportant things...The point is we all will pay taxes no matter what every single year...Dont complain about what the taxes are used for just pay them every year and you wont go to jail for tax evasion...

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 05:02 PM
Ok here's a question for ya. Why do we have to claim our taxes at the end of every year, when the government already knows how much we've already paid them? It's a lure to pay them more, and if we get some in return, they'll turn around and say you owe them, after they've sent you a notice of how much return you're getting. That has happened to me nearly every year. Also, we pay taxes every single day when we purchase an item, or a service. Add up the tax you've paid at the end of the year on daily purchases. You wouldn't want to pay taxes either. Another thing, we pay taxes for recycling right? Well here's some interesting information. All the recycling goes directly into the ground, not into a recycling process. Prove of that, my uncle works for the city here, and he didn't even know that, until he came across the dump the one day, seeing the recycling truck dumping all the bottles/paper, etc. into the ground with the rest of the garbage. It's all a dirty cycle.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 05:58 PM
reply to post by mbkennel

I stand, or rather sit, corrected.

Note to self: Discussing tax law after a long shift at work is not always a good idea.

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 06:27 PM
The legality of the income tax has nothing to do with the 16th Amendment or wages VS labor or goods for service of work etc..

The Income Tax itself is "legal", as the 16 Amendment was properly ratified.

Now the conflict is specifically with the constitution and the requirement for apportionment.

The constitution specifically states that all taxes must be apportioned evenly as apportioned means "spread even".

The three types of taxes in the USA are:

Direct: Those are your property taxes you pay on your home or property that you own. They are and do meet the constitutional requirement of apportionment, as we all know your property taxes are at a set rate...while your neighbor may have a larger home he is still paying the same percentage you are as that rate is set by the county. Its even and it's fair.

Excise: These are sales taxes. You pay a sales tax when you buy a pack of gum or lunch or even a car. These are and do meet the constitutional requirement of apportionment as you may be aware that in your county or city the sales tax rate is X while it may be cheaper in the next is still spread even, and you can freely go to that other county if you want to pay a smaller rate. Again, fair and even.

Capitation: A tax on income. This does NOT meet the constitutional requirement of apportionment as the tax is applied to the amount of income earned by the individual and not geographically. Thusly it is not fair and even and penalizes the individual for being prosperous.

Now within the Tax code more specifically Title 26 of the IRC section 60012 deals with ones LIABILITY for the income tax. It is not up to the the IRS, the Employer or anyone else to determine the individuals tax liability. Rather only the individual can determine if they have had a "taxable year".

Go into you local IRS office and read the plaque on the wall: "The goal of the IRS is to ensure the highest degree of voluntary compliance with the tax laws of the United States" ...

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 07:11 PM
Here is a quick reference section for all major Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and Federal Reserve related arguments (AKA: facts)...

Click to View IRS and Federal Reserve Dedicated Documentaries

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 10:38 PM

Originally posted by illusion987
Do you really know what they are all used for? Personally I feel most of us dont know what taxes are really used for and shouldnt know...

are you nuts??we shouldn't know??? that is such a ridiculous statement---
if we are being taxed we have a right to know why and where and what it's paying

i want you to send me $30 bucks--it's a tax, i work for the irs and will make sure they get it. i'll send you my email----aklso i want it tomorrow or there's a 10 buck late fee!

i expect you to send me it based on your reasoning. sucker-

don't ask don't tell---geez

i mean come on---i hope, maybe, you were being sarcastic

the US is based on checks and balances---also if we didn't imagine the spending that would go on----those taxes you pay would double!!!

also actually by law after we send our taxes in,,, by law,,,they're supposed to send us a statement showing the breakup of where our money went---yet it doesn't happen---
can someone maybe help me with that law or where it's at.
i'm leaving for work shortly to work 3 hours for free to pay taxes so we can occupy a country we invaded for wmd's which had none to begin with

i bet you don't vote either based on "well my one vote won't make a difference" theory

well if we all didn't vote politicians would be more corrupt---more taxes---we need to watch everything.
if no one voted one person could pick the prez

also the saying -you give them an inch, they take a mile,, saying comes to mind

[edit on 27-12-2007 by shortywarn]

posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 12:05 AM
All of you make decent points however once something is placed in the constitution, it becomes constitutional and your arguments become moot, The real problem with the income tax is that the amendment the 16th was never ratified correctly and did not meet the requirements for ratification because 2/3 of the states did not ratify by a vote and then certify the vote through their legislature and send to the congress. This is the way to attack this law is on the basis of the amendment never being ratified properly which makes it not an amendment and therefore the income tax becomes unconstitutional due to the arguments presented above. Anyone interested just google the 16th amendment and voting records and check it out for yourself.

Thanks and Good Day

posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 12:13 AM
Sorry forgot the one website which makes the case better than any other is



posted on Dec, 28 2007 @ 03:22 AM
heres a good documentary from award winning producer arron russo

posted on Dec, 29 2007 @ 02:08 AM
this is still the problem----2 pages of back and forth--all sounding good and legit-----yet we still have no answer

right the russo doc is good and made me angry at the same time--

that poor boxer--joe louis??? to donate money to war, was it, and then get screwed for not paying taxes---and died broke--the good ole usa for you

thats the thing---the people i've debated this with always go back to that well the 16th amendment was passed----final argument--

yet someone just posted that the 16th amend wasn;t legit

what is it????

i wish some real legal scholars would do the work and solve this

also ed brown is in jail---yet that guy down south just beat it and was found not guilty

i still can't make heads or tails-

one thing is i won't fill out a w-2 again if i get that opportunity

also i just read most of our income taxes actually go mostly to pay off interest to fed reserve---not social services like we're lead to believe---although in a round about way i guess repaying loans is paying for the social services-----
that's why ron paul is so right---we' are way overspending our means

i wish more people would rally behind paul!!!!

some say he's crazy and i rebuttle with could he be any more crazy or worse than bush---end of argument..haha

posted on Dec, 31 2007 @ 09:24 AM
there is no more need for any arguments if the 16th amendment shouldnt have been added to the constitution in the first place. If this is true regarding the ratificatin process....then it is simply invalid and Ed brown plus many others should be released. Someone please post the information that proves that the 16th amendment was not ratified properly because if its true then we as citizens can challenge the unconstitutionality of its inception in the higher courts and if struck down im sure (if presented with the proper proof) the supreme court will grant a writ of certiorari to review the case.

posted on Jan, 1 2008 @ 11:13 PM
Interesting thread, perhaps one of you guys out there can help me clarify something for me. I remember hearing once that Ronald Reagan gave a speech once where he stated that our income taxes don't get really spent on building roads and what not. Consequently, he was nearly assassinated shortly after. Any else hear about this or can point me to a valid source. Did some digging around the web and couldn't find anything.

posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 02:06 AM
Finding out rather the income tax is legal is rather simple actually.

One doesn't even need to look at the tax code, simple upon the founding beliefs of this country..

The power lies within the people... (atleast its supposed to)

With the income tax we are forced to pay it (slave tax)) or face prison... (land of the free?)

Now if we go to war an illegal one, and no matter who we elect they refuse to pull us out? what options do we The People have? We hold the power right?

We are forced to fund that war... or go to jail...

Now if we only had (indirect taxes) The Constitutional ones...

All we have to do is stop buying, We The People hold the power...

But heres some posts I've made regarding the subject.

posts here

[edit on 2-1-2008 by C0le]

posted on Jan, 2 2008 @ 02:08 AM
reply to post by nwocomic

The Grace Commission Report.

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