It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Sicko is nothing but LIES

page: 3
3
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 08:10 PM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


It may not go against the oath, but do you see it as a conflict of interest?

Do you think it is appropriate to refuse medical treatment to dying people because they can not afford it, or have no insurance? Do you think it is appropriate that insurance companies pay big money to individuals to find loop wholes to avoid having to make payment to sick individuals who may have been paying a premium for years?

In my opinion, health care should not be a business. It should be a service provided by the government. A luxury paid for by our taxes, to recognize the fact that we live in a modern, civilized environment.

And again, this is all a matter of opinion. The above is my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.




posted on Jan, 5 2008 @ 11:04 PM
link   

Do you think it is appropriate to refuse medical treatment to dying people because they can not afford it, or have no insurance?


No I don't think it is appropriate, I also think it doesn't happen. At least not routinely or anymore than similar mistakes happen around the world as a matter of human error.

As such it is merely inflammatory and not relevant to the issue...

Semper



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 06:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
I also think it doesn't happen. At least not routinely or anymore than similar mistakes happen around the world as a matter of human error.

As such it is merely inflammatory and not relevant to the issue...

Semper


All of which is your opinion, and hardly any fact. Agreed?

How can you really know that this doesn't happen on a regular basis, all over the country? In major hospitals in major American cities, or in smaller clinics in small town USA, how can you be really sure? Is it easier to believe as such, because the alternative is a hard truth to bare?

And how exactly is it inflammatory? Is anything and everything that goes against what you believe inflammatory and not relevant?



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 08:26 AM
link   
My cousin works at a medical office and what does she do? Fight with the Insurance companies. The policy for them is to always, ALWAYS, say no first. Then if the medical office fights them they MIGHT agree to pay.

So Semp, spend THOUSANDS of dollar for medical insurance to be told no we won't cover the transplant you need to save your life, or spend a couple hundred dollars in taxes to always be told yes?



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 10:06 AM
link   

Is anything and everything that goes against what you believe inflammatory and not relevant?


No of course not....


But if we are going to pull scenarios out of the air, we could always say that the Reptiles are being treated and taking all of the resources... Makes as much sense.

All I have to go by is what my Wife tells me.

She worked for years as a traveling nurse all over SC, FL, NC. and GA in some of the largest facilities in the nation. Due to her degree, she works in a management position and is privy to the "goings on" of the hospital.

Now according to her Real Life experience in these environments, what you propose NEVER happens. Allowing for human error of course. No system is perfect if run by humans, I'm sure we will agree on that.

She tells me that after 27 years in the nursing profession and 18 of those in management, she has never even heard of ANYONE being allowed to die, or even suffer more, because of an inability to pay or lack of insurance.

So, as this her experience is real life, I must bow to that of course.

(That and I like peace at home.
:lol


So, to answer your question, that is how I can state that I don't believe it happens. Not my opinion, my wifes life experience...

Semper

ps.. HH I normally avoid answering you, but just so you know. I pay THOUSANDS every year in taxes.. Not hundreds...... THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS.. FAR MORE than I have ever used in health care or will most likely ever use. And if I find myself using that health care, guess what? I will still be paying those THOUSANDS in taxes...

In fact, I just checked and I pay 10s of thousands each year now... When will I get that back in health care bonuses, oh yeah, I wont...

S



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 05:42 PM
link   
You obviously missed the point. You are talking about ALL of your taxes. But, you could drop paying 6,000 dollars in insurance to be told no and add 200 dollars to your taxes to be told yes no matter what.

What makes more sense, save 5,800 dollars and always be told yes or spend that 5,800 to be told no we won't cover your surgery to save your life?



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 06:04 PM
link   
reply to post by HHH Is King
 


NO

You are obviously missing the point...

"I" have paid enough taxes to pay for MY health care, yours and a few more people as well.

Yet, under YOUR SOCIALIST idea, I'll have to keep on paying. More and More and More in higher taxes.
See I'm in that GROUP you all FORGET about that PAYS, FORKS OVER, HANDS OUT, the majority of the taxes that are paid in this country. Each and every year I support those that "Can't" (No regrets), or "WONT", (major portion) that makes me sick each year making out the check to the IRS.
Yet here you all are, crying for more, more of the money I never thought I would ever make walking off that farm in West Virginia with everything I owned in a knapsack. Go get a job that has health care for crying out loud, or do like I did for YEARS and live without it.
Thats right... Years ago, the police force did not have "Standardized" insurance. You purchased your own or did without. When I started in Police work, I qualified for Food Stamps, so guess what? I did without.

I came from nothing, NOTHING, and worked my way to where I am now, with health care, good pay and a great family. I pay my taxes and yet here are people trying to PUNISH me for my life, my hard work and my success.

Socialist...

Why even try and argue the common sense...

I have a debate to attend to.

Semper



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 08:05 PM
link   
semp, to each their own.

You have solidified your beliefs and are clearly unwavering on this issue. That's fine, and I respect that. But as quick as you are to base your beliefs off of these facts, there are just as many others who base their opinion in opposition off of legitimate facts as well.

I do not dispute what your wife has to say. It would be immature for me to even attempt. But this is the account of one person in the health care field. Since when does one view ever give a justified outlook?

Given your profession, you of all people know this. If we were to ask one person their views on police, we would be left short on an accurate representation.

Just a thought, my friend.



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 10:09 PM
link   
Chissler,

Let me ask you one thing...

Do you remember posting with me on a thread in which we were discussing the economy?

Do you remember talking about how bad it was for the people around you?

Do you remember me saying that ONE persons experiences are not as valid as the facts and figures?

Just hoping you remember.

The simple fact is that any form of universally socialized health care will have me and people like me, that have struggled all our lives to live at the level we wish to live at, paying for those that wont step up to the plate and work hard to pay for themselves.

Just another welfare state action..

Semper



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 11:25 PM
link   
reply to post by semperfortis
 


You're aware that there is not an infinite pool of wealth for the population to draw on, and that for every person that "makes it" there need to be many who never do, in order to support that one person?

I know people who have busted their butts into their 60's and still have next to nothing to show for it. Are you going to tell me that it's because they're all lazy good-for-nothings who want to be spoon-fed from your pocket?

Hate to tell you man, but bootstrap levitation is a myth. You did not get where you are by yourself, because damn you're just that good. You got there because of a combination of luck, and people willing to give you a hand to do so. Initiative counts for something, but there are a LOT of people with that trait, and only a few ever see anything come of it.



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 11:34 PM
link   
Your theory of how I "made it" would of course hit home except for one glaring factor...

I made it in the "Public Service Arena"

NOPE

Didn't step on anyone, or use anyone to "help" me up...

I worked an 8 hour day to get myself through college
I volunteered for the Marines and then volunteered for any and all schools
I went into police work and still worked at a convenience store to put food on my daughters table
I saved money by eating a lot of "Ramen Noodles" and Kraft Mac and Cheese. My Daughters hated it, but they appreciate it now that I can pay their tuitions.

So NO

I am where I am because of MY hard work and MY doing without for years so that my children could have a future and so could I.

My kids grew up for years with no TV, could never justify the expense, and cable? Forget about it. Video games were things they played at other peoples houses.
But they had new clothes each year and they were always clean and healthy because I worked at enough jobs to pay for their health care.

So again, NO

No one takes credit for my success or my daughters current successes ..

Not in this lifetime.

Semper



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 12:27 AM
link   
It is my observation that this thread continues to be about semperfortis and not the topic introduced by semper.

Clearly, it is not my station to police the forum, but there are those here whom I would expect more and those whose job it is to keep threads on topic.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 08:13 AM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
The simple fact is that any form of universally socialized health care will have me and people like me, that have struggled all our lives to live at the level we wish to live at, paying for those that wont step up to the plate and work hard to pay for themselves.


This is a cold, hard fact of socialized health care. But for every "slacker" that we are forced to pay for, we are also paying for that single mother with a new born child who needs immediate treatment for the infant. Some people just can not afford it. There are good people that need this help, and a socialized health care enables this. I am more than happy to pay for a few slackers, if I can be assured that I am also paying for the innocent ones that can not.

What if someone was in the position you once was, but was not physically capable of maintaining any sort of employment? What if they had a physical or mental disability, and had no insurance?

I'll help pay for the bad, to make sure I'm paying for the good.



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 09:02 AM
link   
As will I my Friend...

Of my OWN FREE WILL...

The problem comes in when the government begins telling me what I should be charitable towards....

That is NOT the business of the government.

I'll make you a deal, you show me that person that really needs the care and I'll pay for it, gladly and without hesitation. But in return you don't advocate the government MAKING me be charitable... Then we would have a deal..

Semper



posted on Jan, 7 2008 @ 09:45 AM
link   
As far as I know, the government doesn't make you pay for the health care of other citizens. We, as in Canadians, have a socialized health care system and we pay for one another on a daily basis. And we like it! Do you pay for the health care of others on a daily basis? A genuine question as I have yet to have a look at one of your pay stubs.


If not, then why haven't you paid for the health care of a poor individual who can not afford it? Or have you?

By your own admission, if the government wasn't making you do it, you would be doing it yourself anyways. So if your government isn't making you, are you?



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 06:10 AM
link   
Ok Semp, simple question.

What costs more.

6,000 dollars to an insurance to die of something simple but couldn't get it fixed because the insurance company said no.

200 dollars to get your entire family covered and always told yes.



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 07:56 AM
link   
Hey I got a question. Let's say we socialize healthcare. Are food, water and shelter not healthcare?

Then say since everything is taken care of we all just quick working. After all if my food, water, shelter and medicine are guaranteed to me why should I bother working? Why not just ride my bike across the country and never live another "productive" day?

Say we all do that.

Sooner or later our government will have to force us to work either at gun point or by requiring employment to be eligible for the socialized programs essentially bringing us right back to the way it is currently. Those who can work do so and if you don't get insurance aid from your employer it is affordable on your own (don't tell me it's not I've bought my own and I'm dirt poor) and those who are unable to work get a free ride from our taxation and the tacked on extra fees of our healthcare.

You end up wasting all this time to go full circle.

I guess the gamble is that people wouldn't quit working if they had everything taken care of? We can take a look at employment figures and work ethic in Europe for the answer to that one.



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 09:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Are food, water and shelter not healthcare?


No, not even close.


Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Sooner or later our government will have to force us to work either at gun point or by requiring employment to be eligible for the socialized programs essentially bringing us right back to the way it is currently.


There are plenty of countries today that have socialized health care. My own being one of them. And what you have described here is absolutely preposterous. But this is the typical response to invoke the typical knee-jerk from those who oppose socialized health care.

Canada and the United States do not differ greatly. Yet on an international scale, it is a much better country to live in. Why is that? The one glowing difference is our approach to health care. Could that be a part of it? Me thinks so.


Take a peak at this link: The Best Countries to Live in

Or how about this? Universal Health Care



Europe

Most of Europe has publicly sponsored and regulated health care. Countries include Austria, Belgium, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Malta, the Netherlands, Norway, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal,[3] Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom




The United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.


The typical gross exaggerations are all that is left, and it all hinges on the knee-jerk response of anything "socialized".



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 09:45 AM
link   
reply to post by chissler
 


So how is food and water and shelter not healthcare? Socialized medicine will sit back and watch me starve, dehydrate or freeze? At some point the thirst hunger and exposure to elements would get me into the hospital, wouldn't it?



posted on Jan, 8 2008 @ 12:15 PM
link   


healthcare, is the prevention, treatment, and management of illness and the preservation of mental and physical well being through the services offered by the medical, nursing, and allied health professions.

en.wikipedia.org...


Our basic human needs such as food, water, shelter, etc., do not fall under the realm of health care. We both know and understand this, but incorporating these as one in the same would help in the stance against socialized medicine. However, it's an inaccurate representation of what we're actually trying to discuss.

Basic human needs is not the health care system.

We have social programs in place to help individuals who require assistance in meeting these basic needs. Homeless shelters, food kitchens, etc., are all assembled to help with this. But then again, I'm confident you already know this.




top topics



 
3
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join