Sicko is nothing but LIES

reply to post by semperfortis

Nobody so far has said that U.S. healthcare wasn't good, or even that it wasn't the best. Only that it isn't accessible to a large number of people. As you're a Marine I would guess that you have military insurance so it isn't a problem for you. My father was a colonel and we had very good healthcare when I was a child. When I was a young adult I didn't have health insurance so I just didn't go to doctors.

It's true that hospitals can't refuse you health care because of your ability to pay, but then they have to absorb the costs and they are passed on to the consumers who can pay. Those who are uninsured have the highest rates. People who are honest often struggle for years to pay the cost of one operation.

Many people who advocate socilaized medicine do not want to live in an entirely socialist economy, or a communist one. It's tiring to hear us "libs" told we hate our country just because we think there's possibly a better way to deal with some social problems.

Sorry that your tired of hearing it my friend, but as long as there are those that advocate the destruction of my way of life, the abolishment of what this country was founded on, you will continue to hear it. Especially from those that can make an argument based on facts and not emotions...

As far as access goes, I have yet to figure that out... Here are the FACTS...

US Census

7,569 Hospitals nationwide

National Health Care laws require every hospital to render appropriate health care to all persons.

See here

Emergency Health Care

Also one must consider the nature and the state of the health care facilities available to those lucky Cubans.. Just watch the films..

Me? I would rather die at home than from an infestation in a Cuban Hospital, or from neglect as my bed sores become infected or even as has been reported, starvation...

No, say what you want, the facts are there for anyone not blinded by emotion to see...

The socialization of America has begun and the only thing standing in the way of the libs destroying this great nation is the conservative base...

Does any thinking individual truly believe that the socialist libs will stop at hospitalization when their leading candidates say things like "I want to take their profits" Hillary, and Obama quoting direct from the communist manifesto?

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


deflection, deflection, deflection, use of the term "lib" and more deflection.

the USA doesn't have the best system in the world, far from it. hell, the USA isn't even t he "best country in the world" as THERE ISN'T A WAY TO MAKE THAT JUDGMENT.

semp, the USA is actually far from the best nation in the world right now, it could be so much better. the healthcare system could be better, people could be slimmer and less ignorant, and the government could stop engaging in useless wars when they could try diplomacy.

right now, there isn't a best nation in the world. there is not a country that stands above the rest. the USA COULD be that nation, if those damn libs actually got what they're planning off the ground...

and accusing the WHO of bias is kind of...um... i don't know what to say really about that other than it's a baseless smear that simply shows that you have no argument. the WHO used a variety of statistics from infant mortality rates to access to healthcare to make the judgments. it's a raw data assessment, nothing more.

you have no argument, semp, that much is apparent.

Much like most of them. Ignore the facts, numbers, statistics, it's anti American if big business and oil and Halliburton don't support it. I love how they have a problem with 350 to a poor person but love that Bush and the GOP gives billions to big business.

Even better when they say welfare to the poor is communism but giving billions to big business is God. "Um, isn't giving billions of tax payer dollars communism?" NO its Gods on Earth! I just sold my house and car and gave it to a billionaire and so should you!

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
That's pretty nice, but the issue here is not Canadian health care, but Cuban health care.

No, the issue here is with Socialized Health Care. Yes, Cuba is being used as an example.. but as an example of socialized medicine. So the Canadian reference is applicable. In my opinion, of course.

Again, all of this is a matter of opinion.

What's better.. Coke or Pepsi? Do you prefer Blue or Red ink?

Both have their ups, and both have their downs. To each their own.

Actually the issue I posted Chissler my good friend, was in reference to Cuban Health Care.. I can see the pertinence in the branches this conversation has taken and feel they are appropriate, however bringing Canada into the discussion broadens the viable topic boundaries to the extreme...

As for the deflection comments prior to the Chissler post, they are so very typical.. Instead of discussing the issue, cry deflection and avoid the hard topics....

Typical lib tactic is to attack the messenger and not the message as the message was laid out with links, videos and factual evidence. To which was presented opinion, emotion and cries of deflection... Isn't that the way most conversations go when a Lib is talking with a Conservative?

Your "OPINIONS" are just that, opinions and you are all of course entitled to them and to express them at every opportunity. However to present them in defense of factual material that was presented by another is the mark of foolishness and a weak stance.

So continue with your opinions and my facts stand on their own...

Semper

I sort of have a problem with any posts/threads that contain the words 'always, never, liar, truth etc.'. This is a closed mindness and lack of vision and/or dismissiveness I abhor. Just my two cow cookes. With all do respect and kindness Semper, it was you who said it was not even worth discussing with us 'blue Libs'. I find that a bit contradictory.

[edit on 1-1-2008 by jpm1602]

The title of the thread is 'Sicko is nothing but LIES'. The opening post does not mention that this is exclusively about Cuba, but does have a clip that relates to Cuba.

Considering that Canada is covered in the movie Sicko and the premise of the thread is 'Sicko is nothing but Lies', I would think that the topic of Canadian, British and French healthcare is very pertinent, unless you'd like to change the title of the thread to 'Approximately a third of the movie Sicko is lies'.

Don't blame people for wanting to discuss things that are actually in the movie if you are going to dismiss it as a lie in its entirety.



[edit on 1-1-2008 by Duzey]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Typical lib tactic is to attack the messenger and not the message as the message was laid out with links, videos and factual evidence. To which was presented opinion, emotion and cries of deflection... Isn't that the way most conversations go when a Lib is talking with a Conservative?

Funny, because that's exactly what you're doing, in reverse.

All I hear from you is vague and ill-informed generalizations on some loose concept of what a liberal archetype entails.

Hypocrisy.



But anyway, I think that saying America is the greatest country in the world is rather childish. First of all, what defines the greatest country? If it's the nukes,

by God we're the deity itself.

Maybe it's the healthcare. Then at that, who's to say we're better than places like Britain or France? There is extremely poor access for the middle and lower class, which, in my opinion, is the bottom line for determining the efficacy of a medical program.

My boyfriend had alcohol poisoning once and called the ambulance, as he should have. A ride in the ambulance cost $1000.

Gas ain't that expensive yet.

Truly, doctors are overpaid, corporations are far too groomed by our "CAPITALIST" regime, and people are suffering. This could be explainable for a third world country, but for Jiminy's sake, we're the richest country on the globe.

[edit on 1-1-2008 by iceofspades]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Actually the issue I posted Chissler my good friend, was in reference to Cuban Health Care.. I can see the pertinence in the branches this conversation has taken and feel they are appropriate, however bringing Canada into the discussion broadens the viable topic boundaries to the extreme...

I thought the problem was with the film Sicko, as stated in the title. If the problem is with a specific representation of a certain aspect of the film, then it should be stated so. Otherwise, is it not a broad, unfounded generalization?

Originally posted by semperfortis
As for the deflection comments prior to the Chissler post, they are so very typical.. Instead of discussing the issue, cry deflection and avoid the hard topics....

semp, you know I have the utmost respect for you.. but the behaviour you are displaying here is somewhat uncharacteristic for you. You're making allegations of deflection and avoidance on one side, but fail to see how you are guilty of it as well. As you've stated previously...

Originally posted by semperfortis
If you believe any of Michael Moores points in any of his various lies/films, then it is established that we have nothing in which to discuss...

Semper

Do you see what I am getting at?

Originally posted by semperfortis
Typical lib tactic is to attack the messenger and not the message as the message was laid out with links, videos and factual evidence. To which was presented opinion, emotion and cries of deflection... Isn't that the way most conversations go when a Lib is talking with a Conservative?

Are any of these generalizations necessary or constructive?

If I were to take this generalizations and apply them in another sense, would you consider them appropriate? Typical female response, typical black response, typical response for any homosexual.. etc., are any of these relevant? No, they are not. I don't think you'd sit here and generalize the behaviour of an individual on their skin color.. so why do it on their political affiliation?

Because it's their choice? I see this as the lone logical response, but it's still baseless. Its a useless generalization that does nothing to further any discussion.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Your "OPINIONS" are just that, opinions and you are all of course entitled to them and to express them at every opportunity. However to present them in defense of factual material that was presented by another is the mark of foolishness and a weak stance.

Why fault individuals who perceive factual information in another way? I can present a subject with hard facts, and not everybody is going to perceive it in the same way. Are you honestly stating that your way of perceiving facts is superior to others?

Originally posted by semperfortis
So continue with your opinions and my facts stand on their own...

Semper

...It would appear you are.

Whew!!!!

I feel like a wounded "Man O' War" that has had one too many shots fired into the keel....

My fault really though. I have been so very terribly busy at work and wanted to post something to get a lively discussion going, but it seems the film is not being discussed nearly as much as my statements and perceived attitude...Again, I take full blame for not giving myself the time to properly form replies and posting "Off the Cuff" as it were...

Anyway. I apologize for any misunderstandings and hope we can move on...

As far as discussing Canada, I got the impression the film was about Cuba. If I was wrong, again I am sorry. The film mentioned exterminators as well, but I have no desire to discuss the bug business. My impression is the film was centered on Cuba....

As for my direct comment relating to Madness, that was not intended to any other poster. Madness and I have a history and when we differ as much as we do on this thread, the result is, in my opinion, not a healthy conversation. I perhaps worded it wrong and again I find I must apologize.

Now with all the apologizes out of the way, back to the film clip.

How I feel about the issue is a moot point. When you have numerous doctors that have actually worked in those facilities speaking out about the conditions, and an obvious "set scene" for Moore's visit, then the facts are present and substantial. While everyone LOVES giving their opinion, they most often have little to nothing to do with facts.

I do have a debate to attend to so I hope you all will forgive me an extended absence. Thanks

Semper

Apology accepted. I have always found your posts informative and insightful. This one was over the top, but I live in a glass house and you know how that goes. We all make our share. Kudos for man upping.

semp, you have apologized several times in this thread for not having the ability to dedicate a certain amount of time to this thread. Unless I am mistaken, nobody is faulting you for not having the time. What we're confused with is the stance being taken, while you are participating. And I still see no reason for apologizing for your own beliefs, and I'm confident you feel the same.

After reading your last post, I am under the impression that you have yet to view this film. Would that be correct?

So then I ask, is it fair to make the statements you have, on a film that you have not taken the time to view?

It's about much more than the Cuban Health Care system.

Our views and personal opinions of Michael Moore aside, it's not that bad of a film. I don't agree with everything in it, but I'd have to say that much of it is based on hard facts. It's a factual documentary with some personal opinions injected, not the other way around.

I'm interested in hearing what you say after having viewed it. Not sure if it will change your opinion on the film, but it would at least validate your current views.

Well 1. I was not in anyway apologizing for my view points... Not at all. Just the way I expressed them and my "tone" as it were.

And 2. Of course I watched the clip, unless your talking the entire movie and then NO, I have not and unless I get it free will not. I have no intention of supporting anything like that.

Now if you want to give it to me, I'll watch it.. LOL

I will accept that you have seen it and your evaluation on the film however. But of course you are a lot more in line with Moore than I will ever be my Friend...

Well, gotta go catch a bad guy...

Semper

How do you fault an individual on their work, if you refuse to give it the time of day? Would it be fair for me to criticize your efforts here on ATS if I didn't even read your posts?

I think I'd need to give your efforts the time of day if I wished to have an opinion on it.

But watching it might educate him on how horrible our system is. In Canada, or Denmark, and other of those evil socialists countries you get sick, you go in, and get better with little to no paying because you already paid for it in taxes.

Here? You feel sick, go in, wait, they say we have to wait for clearance from your insurance company(if you have one) and three weeks later after you died of an exploding spleen they call you and say "Hey, we can look at you now."

Here in America you have the ones who can afford it paying thousands of dollars for medical insurance that MIGHT cover you and your family. In those evil socialist countries you spend a little in taxes to get 100% coverage no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

But no, these people would rather spend 2,000 dollars in insurance payments to get told no we won't cover that instead of 200 dollars to get "Come on in and have a seat we'll be with you in about half an hour."

I've heard or actually read much criticism on this thread on the U.S. health care system. I don't see the issue (and yes I know I'm going to get flamed for this). I've known many people my Dad included who received help when it was needed. When my Mother was dying of cancer the hospital bill exceeded what CHAMPUS was willing to pay. There was no way my Dad could pay it; he was facing losing everything. We finally convinced him to go to DSHS they gave him medical coupons that paid the bill in full. I've known young people who don't have insurance who also asked for and received help from the state.

I know I'm lucky to have health insurance provided through my employer and although I've heard many complain about Group Health they've been good to us. We got my daughter's tonsillectomy approved in 3 days and my cataract surgery approved in 5. We've never been turned down for procedures nor for prescriptions that were requested by my doctor.

Help is available for people who need it all that is required is that you ask for it. Socialized medicine isn't free; it has to be paid for by some one. I'm not ready to have my taxes raised yet again especially when there are programs already in place to ensure health care.

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
Help is available for people who need it all that is required is that you ask for it. Socialized medicine isn't free; it has to be paid for by some one. I'm not ready to have my taxes raised yet again especially when there are programs already in place to ensure health care.

The thing is...medical care is the most grossly over-valued service, financially. The pharma companies have made it something viewed as a luxury, mainly because the surgeries cost FAR more than they cost to perform, not to mention prescriptions. The cost to institute universal healthcare would still, regardless of the current outrageous prices, be but a drop of water to military spending.

The issue is that medical care, by nature, should not be for-profit, especially EXTORTION. That's against the hippocratic oath, which all doctors must follow.

This is not to say doctors shouldn't be well-paid, but trust me, I've talked with doctors from the UK, and they live very nicely on their salary.

Well now...

Here is BOTH the Modern oath, which Doctors now abide by (Supposedly) and the Classic...

Hippocratic Oath

PLEASE do show us where in the oath it says that it should not be for profit....

PLEASE DO

You will find where abortion is against the oath,

the utmost respect for every human life from fertilization to natural death and reject abortion that deliberately takes a unique human life.

but profit? Still looking... looking... NOPE not there...

Feel free to enlighten..

Semper

I agree. Paying for healthcare is for middle class working humps.

First time I went to the ER after I moved I was unemployed. Now, even though I make 6 figures it's like I'm a Mexican. All free, you pay.

Sure, you pay for it in higher premiums, but I don't. This system is PERFECT! (for me, suckers.)

[edit on 5-1-2008 by RANT]