Sicko is nothing but LIES, page 1

posted on Dec, 25 2007 @ 10:09 PM

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I know that for those of you that are NOT interested in being politically correct, this will not come as a surprise....

BUT

For the rest of you, watch and learn...

Become informed....

Semper

madnessinmysoul

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 05:53 AM

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nothing but lies? excuse me, but this particular mass media segment seems to only be about 1 part of the documentary....

hmm...jumping the gun much?

also, the point of the segment about cuban healthcare wasn't as much about quality of care as the access to care.... mainly how the 9/11 heroes weren't getting treatment in the USA, but would receive treatment (not necessarily better treatment) in cuba

...stossel really ripped that strawman to shreds.

[edit on 12/26/07 by madnessinmysoul]

semperfortis

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:00 AM

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If you believe any of Michael Moores points in any of his various lies/films, then it is established that we have nothing in which to discuss...

Semper

madnessinmysoul

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 09:20 AM

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reply to post by semperfortis

sounds an awful lot like "if you disagree with me, i don't want to talk to you"
very mature... you know, i normally hold quite a bit of respect for you, though i normally disagree with your views completely. this is below you.

honestly, i agree that, overall, cuba's system isn't as good as america's, but that's partially due to that little embargo that's kept the nation crippled. however, in terms of access to care, cuba beats the USA

just look at the facts, the 5 best nations in terms of healthcare have socialized systems, it's just the best way to go about things in this particular situation.

forestlady

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:02 AM

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I can't stand John Stossel. He slants his information to suit his own agenda, which is always very right wing.
Back in 1977, I was traveling in the then USSR and needed to ahve my appendix removed ASAP. I was taken to the Botkin Clinic in Moscow, where I received absolutely wonderful care and it was all for free. In addition, the staff were all very helpful and caring. The food sucked, but that was my only complaint.

The insurance companies are dictating treatment to doctors and I've read many articles written by doctors who are up in arms about this. For profit medicine sucks, the insurance companies are raking in billions and there are many, many stories of insurance fraud.

Socialized medicine is the only way to go. You may have to wait a little longer for the health care, but at least you GET health care and it's good. With the wealth in America, there is no reason that everyone shouldn't be covered.

forestlady

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:04 AM

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reply to post by semperfortis

So you're saying that you refuse to take part in a discussion where you might learn something? Hmm, not exactly how ATS is supposed to work, but oh well.

madnessinmysoul

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 11:58 AM

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reply to post by forestlady

hospital food is hospital food anywhere, i guess... though i might expect better from the french.

though i did always enjoy the jello...

Areal51

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 04:14 PM

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reply to post by semperfortis

Well, gee, is the purpose of your thread only so that you can reply to yourself? What would be the point of trying to persuade only yourself and others who already agree with you? I must have misunderstood the intent of your OP.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by Areal51]

GradyPhilpott

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:04 PM

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There is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with posting material with minimal commentary that is meant to stand on its own.

We are all free to discuss this matter without engaging the original poster, if he has no interest in discussing the matter further.

If you have information that refutes Semper's position, post it.

You don't need his input to do so.

[edit on 2007/12/26 by GradyPhilpott]

HHH Is King

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 06:53 PM

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Nice, he is ripped apart, he cries and says he ain't gonna talk no more, and somehow its our fault for expecting him to learn something new. Why can't our teachers be like you? Make sure our kids are even dumber then what they already are. "What, you want him to learn that 2+2=4 and not 5? How dare you! He doesn't need to learn anything!"

chissler

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 07:45 PM

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So, we are to ignore the opinions of one individual that you seem to disagree with, and accept the opinions of someone else who is in opposition? Both are pieces of information, in opposition of one another, that can be easily perceived as biased in their own sense.

This segment focuses on one aspect of the documentary and tries to pick it apart. In response to this one section, this thread is titled as "Sicko is nothing but LIES". Nothing but lies? It's focused on a five minute snip of the movie. If it's nothing but lies, I think they need to do a little bit more work.

BOTH of these are opinion pieces. To ignore that, is to be biased yourself.

Originally posted by semperfortis
If you believe any of Michael Moores points in any of his various lies/films, then it is established that we have nothing in which to discuss...

Semper

I understand that you disagree with the views of this individual, but how do you base this opinion off of material that can be perceived in the same light? It is a subjective issue. I live in Canada and I support our Health Care system. Socialized Medicine really isn't as terrible as it is said. My step-father had a cancer diagnosis, surgery, and recovery all inside of four weeks. Never cost us a penny. Had a private room and a nurse to answer to his every need. Four months later he had a massive heart attack and spent seven days in a coma. Never cost us a penny.

To consider our Health Care as a business and their number one goal is to make money.. that's not right. In my opinion, of course.

Everything here is biased, for the most part. It's a subjective issue that doesn't have a right or wrong answer.

niteboy82

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:34 PM

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reply to post by GradyPhilpott

There is quite a difference, imo, between posting something and never coming back to the thread, versus saying "if you agree with someone else, then we have nothing to speak of." Especially when it is coming from who I consider to be a distinguished member who is far too excellent in debating ideas to suddenly close up.

Maybe Semper is just having a bad day folks, I seriously doubt that he would simply refuse to discuss an issue.

I haven't watched the video yet, but frankly I am not a fan of the whole politically correct stuff anyhow, so I am interested to at least watch it and give it a chance. Thanks for posting Semper, and I'll respond again once I have seen the video.

GradyPhilpott

posted on Dec, 26 2007 @ 08:40 PM

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Originally posted by chissler
I live in Canada and I support our Health Care system. Socialized Medicine really isn't as terrible as it is said. My step-father had a cancer diagnosis, surgery, and recovery all inside of four weeks. Never cost us a penny. Had a private room and a nurse to answer to his every need. Four months later he had a massive heart attack and spent seven days in a coma. Never cost us a penny.

That's pretty nice, but the issue here is not Canadian health care, but Cuban health care.

I don't know anything about either, but I think it's safe to say that judging one by the other isn't really valid.

Health care in America isn't as bad as people often claim, but there are some horror stories like the most recent one of the woman dying because of her HMO's lack of conscience.

We have health care programs here for the needy and the fact is that most Americans aren't ready to go the socialized medicine route just yet.

It might happen, but it all boils down to the fact that America is a land of opportunity and setting up an endless supply of entitlements is not an overwhelmingly popular idea, especially when these programs are funded by tax dollars.

Most clear thinking folks know that there is no such thing as free health care. Someone pays. The question is who pays.

[edit on 2007/12/26 by GradyPhilpott]

semperfortis

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:23 AM

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Guys I hate to break this to you, but really I have a life outside of ATS...

I know that's shocking, but it is true...

One sure way to evaluate both Moore's, and John Stossel's work, is to evaluate the material from an outside and/or further prospective.

I present you with some links that establish the true nature of the issue...

[A group of 18 recently exiled Cuban doctors, some of whom arrived in the U.S. within the last six months, released a statement this week condemning recent efforts to hold the U.S. embargo of Cuba responsible for reportedly declining Cuban health standards. ]
We, the undersigned, all medical doctors recently exiled from Cuba, are compelled to speak out against the current campaign in the American press to blame the U.S. embargo for the reported decline of the Cuban health care system. The most recent reports being a study by the American Association for World Health and a column in the Washington Post by Mr. Stephen Rosenfeld.

Cuban Truth 1

And

Cuban Health Care

Cuban Health Care 2

So, emotional outbursts aside, my absence from the boards was announced in a Christmas thread and I apologize if some of you missed it. Suffice it to say, much like tonight I have but a few minutes to read, digest and post. This is the season for me to be busy and we all of a sudden find ourselves short handed until we can hire another Officer.

However thanks to those of you that understood and my apologizes to those that did not...

Semper

madnessinmysoul

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 09:06 AM

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reply to post by semperfortis

and again you're missing the point moore was making. it wasn't a point on the QUALITY of care. if that had been the point, he would have omitted the WHO's listing of cuba's health care system as 2 steps below the USA

he was talking about access to care.

and again, cuba is the way it is MOSTLY due to the ILLEGAL, UNLAWFUL, IMMORAL, and PUNITIVE embargo that has crippled it

Areal51

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 10:36 AM

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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by semperfortis

and again, cuba is the way it is MOSTLY due to the ILLEGAL, UNLAWFUL, IMMORAL, and PUNITIVE embargo that has crippled it

An you know capitalists are just biding their time but lusting longingly to buy up the country and turn it into a resort or amusement part, or something like that.

semperfortis

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 11:57 AM

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According to you madness, I miss points all the time. It's a wonder I mange to post at all....

Maybe it's edumacaton i is in nneds of? I is from weSt VIrgiNia origanl.

No madness, *sigh* no point was missed...

The POINT of the OP (Written by none other, unless I missed my own point

) is that given a choice of languishing away and starving to death alone in one of Cuba's wonderful health care facilities, I would guess some of those REAL people would prefer a capitalist solution. Or at the very least a death at home, one they owned under a capitalist society you libs hate so much.

Perhaps a nurse that was being paid a good wage would at least put salve on the open sores.
Perhaps in a capitalist society you libs hate, they could call an exterminator that was working for a wage in a competitive economic society.
Perhaps there would even be a doctor to treat them, if the doctor was waking enough money to survive on.

Again, perhaps some of us could get off the "I'm politically correct" bandwagon and think for ourselves instead of falling for every Michael Moore, Global Warming, Economic collapse, The end is coming scenario that has been happening for centuries and we are all still waiting on. AT least those that can think independently which is not something conducive to the popularity of Michael Moore's blather.

Semper

[edit on 12/27/2007 by semperfortis]

madnessinmysoul

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:48 PM

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reply to post by semperfortis

ok, so you're going to say that the wages are the fault of the system instead of the embargo....

anyway

a person who knows anything about the world's health care systems would want a socialized system like France or Malta (#1 and #5 in the world according to the WHO... the USA comes somewhere in the 30s, with Cuba just two spots below it)
sure, in the USA you can get the best care in the world... but only if you're able to dish out the millions for it...
but in countries like France, that average citizen gets much better health care. that's what matters most.

tell me, semp, if the capitalist system is so great, if the invisible hand of the free market works SO well, why does a non-capitalist system work better than the capitalist one in the USA?

Sestias

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 12:51 PM

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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott[/i

Most clear thinking folks know that there is no such thing as free health care. Someone pays. The question is who pays.

I always enjoy Moore's movies, even as I know he exaggerates or maybe even lies at times. He focuses on important issues, and generates discussion of them, whether one agrees with him or not. I don't know if that's "politically correct"--that seems to be an epithet for liberal these days. I agree, however, that the segment on Cuba was at least slanted.

I do see some kind of socialized medicine in the future. There are fewer and fewer jobs that provide good--or even any-- health care coverage anymore as the costs of insurance are always going up. At the same time the costs of drugs and health care are always rising too. Soon only the very rich will be able to pay out of pocket for medical services. More and more of the middle class will be affected.

Yes, someone will have to pay, that's very true. Socialized medicine will probably have to be financed with tax money. Personally, I would rather pay more in taxes each year than have to come up with many thousands at one time.

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, but it's the best I know of so far.

semperfortis

posted on Dec, 27 2007 @ 01:14 PM
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why does a non-capitalist system work better than the capitalist one in the USA?

Typical Lib trap question...No correct answer except to answer in a way that suits your agenda..

No one here is gullible enough to fall for that, but I will address the meaning behind the trick question....

I know of none...

Having traveled extensively overseas in both the Marines and on vacations, I have yet to find one... Asia (Extensively) Europe, Philippines, Middle East etc...

(Going to Ireland in the spring..)

This is the greatest country in the world despite the lib efforts at changing it into some reflection of a third world country.

I have had several medical issue, some pretty severe in the recent past and I have yet to pay a million dollars for any of my health care, or all combined for that matter. In fact, I have not even come close.

I am aware of the high cost for PRIVATE medical care, but I am also not blind to the FACT that no one is denied health care for ability to pay. Wife is a Charge Nurse at a major hospital. (Previously advised in a thread of mine)
The ability to pay is NOT a consideration..

I know, your now going to list all those tragic stories about this one not getting this and that one not getting that. The libs pay good money to these tragic individuals for these to be aired after all and we should not neglect their contributions. But I am talking about real life, that which my wife and I experience each and every day. No lib pays me to endorse socialized health care because they hate capitalism.
Just real life, real truth.

So go ahead and post the little sad stories of this one being neglected by that hospital, or this one not getting that operation, still the facts remain...

People from all over the world flock here for the health care they can not get, or have to wait for months to receive. We have the best system and that is a fact.

Do some US citizens go elsewhere to get operations? Sure, as stated no system is perfect except that of the Lord. But it is also a fact that no system is better than ours...

W.H.O.??? HAHAHAHAHAHA

You have got to be kidding bringing that lib supported farce into an intellectual conversation. Come on now, if we are going to have a discourse, you have got to stay serious and stop cracking me up.... Heck what's next, you going to link to the U.N.? HAHAHAHA

Is it perfect? No, but then again neither is the criminal justice system. Something I know a little about. But it is the best in the world because of the capitalism you libs so hate and want to destroy.

Semper