The USA was founded by Secret Societies and Not Christianity.

Obviously the creator of this topic can not read, has no real sense of history and is ignorant of exactly what the Constitution of The United States of America really says.

Yes, some of the founders of the Uni9ted States of America were Free Masons. But most were not members of that organization. The Rosicrutions did not exist at that time, so none of our founders could possibly have been members of that society.

I would suggest that people stop looking for "conspiracy" in everything. The "all seeing eye" is historically prominent all over Europe. It is an ancient symbol of the Creator. It did not begin with the Masons.

The use of latin phrases was very common at the time of the founding of this country. The use of that language merely demonstrated that the person was educated, something most of the people on this site are not.

The Constitution of the US specifically prohibits any kind of a state religion, and that INCLUDES ALL FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY.

The founders came from countries where the government established a church that everyone had to at least contribute to, if not actually belong to. They did not want such a practice in their new country.

They came from societies where you had to belong to a certain religion in order to be a government official. They did not want that either, so they specifically prohibited any form of religious test for any elected person in opur country.

They wanted everyone to be able to freely practice their religion, without any form of governmental interference.

Too bad so many people today can't see the wisdom of the founding fathers. Instead, they want to impose their version of Christianity upon everyone, and force everyone to conform to their ideas.

Such a way of being is actually very much anti-american.

Originally posted by OldMedic
Obviously the creator of this topic can not read, has no real sense of history and is ignorant of exactly what the Constitution of The United States of America really says.

Wow, thanks for the personal shots. Can we debate the topic and not the posters please?

Yes, some of the founders of the Uni9ted States of America were Free Masons. But most were not members of that organization. The Rosicrutions did not exist at that time, so none of our founders could possibly have been members of that society.

You live in your fairy tale I'll live in mine. I think they did, and have been around much longer than the origin of the USA.

I would suggest that people stop looking for "conspiracy" in everything. The "all seeing eye" is historically prominent all over Europe. It is an ancient symbol of the Creator. It did not begin with the Masons.

You are aware this is a conspiracy forum? Part of my argument is that these secret societies go back thousands of years.

The use of latin phrases was very common at the time of the founding of this country. The use of that language merely demonstrated that the person was educated, something most of the people on this site are not.

If you dislike this site and it's members so much, why don't you spend your time elsewhere?

The Constitution of the US specifically prohibits any kind of a state religion, and that INCLUDES ALL FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY.

The founders came from countries where the government established a church that everyone had to at least contribute to, if not actually belong to. They did not want such a practice in their new country.

Hmmm wow that may have something to do with this thread and if you read this thread, what you have mentioned has been brought up. But today many Evangelical Christians claim that we are and was formed as a Christian nation. I don't agree.

They came from societies where you had to belong to a certain religion in order to be a government official. They did not want that either, so they specifically prohibited any form of religious test for any elected person in opur country.

Sounds like America since 2000.

They wanted everyone to be able to freely practice their religion, without any form of governmental interference.

I Agree

Too bad so many people today can't see the wisdom of the founding fathers. Instead, they want to impose their version of Christianity upon everyone, and force everyone to conform to their ideas.

Again I Agree!

Such a way of being is actually very much anti-american.

I also Agree!

Just how far back do I think these secret societies go? What is there goal? What is there purpose? Why was America founded?

Originally posted by OldMedic
The Rosicrutions did not exist at that time, so none of our founders could possibly have been members of that society.

Fama Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis, Confessio Fraternitatis, and Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz were all published early 17th century. Leaving plenty of time for our founders to be part of the movement. (AMORC, a modern Rosicrucian movement, claims that Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian.)

My point is, by 1776 the Rosicrucian movement was in full swing.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


Fama Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis, Confessio Fraternitatis, and Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz were all published early 17th century. Leaving plenty of time for our founders to be part of the movement. (AMORC, a modern Rosicrucian movement, claims that Benjamin Franklin was a Rosicrucian.)

My point is, by 1776 the Rosicrucian movement was in full swing.

True. But "historic" Rosicrucianism (and Masonic Rosicrucianism, for that matter) is both Christian and Trinitarian. Franklin and Washington, for example, were both Deists and Unitarians.

That one guy I was talking with earlier pointed out a statement in The New Age Magazine, which I don't personally find very convincing. Another Mason who believes the Seal is Masonic and Rosicrucian is Brother and Dr. Paul Foster Case. Case makes his argument in his booklet "The Great Seal of the United States". He still doesn't really convince me, but his argument is better than the statements published in The New Age.

reply to post by Masonic Light


The "statement" was a bit more involved than what CN23 had meagerly quoted. I have a feeling you haven't gone to the link he provided and read the whole thing. If that is the case, here it is in its entirety:

Another interpretation of the Great Seal, Masonic in nature, taken from Masonry in Texas, Background, History and Influence to 1846 by James D. Carter, 33°, G.'.C.'., is as follows:

"Among those who helped design the Great Seal of the United States the following are known to have been Masons: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, William Churchill Houston, and William Barton. Whether they drew heavily upon Freemasonry in this work it is impossible to assert but when an informed Mason examines the Great Seal here is what he sees: On the obverse is an eagle whose dexter wing has thirty-two feathers, the number of ordinary degrees in Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The sinister wing has thirty-three feathers, the additional feather corresponding to the Thirty-third Degree of the same Rite conferred for outstanding Masonic service. The tail feathers number nine, the number of degrees in the Chapter, Council and Commandery of the York Rite of Freemasonry. Scottish Rite Masonry had its origin in France; the York Rite is sometimes called the American Rite; the eagle thus clothed represents the union of French and American Masons in the struggle for Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity. The total number of feathers in the two wings is sixty-five which, by gematria, is the value of the Hebrew phrase yam yawchod (together in unity). This phrase appears in Psalm 133 as follows: 'Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity,' and is used in the ritual of the first degree of Freemasonry. The glory above the eagle's head is divided into twenty-four equal parts and reminds the observer of the Mason's gauge which is also divided into twenty-four equal parts and is emblematic of the service he is obligated to perform. The five pointed stars remind him of the Masonic Blazing Star and the five points of fellowship. The arrangement of the stars in the constellation to form overlapping equilateral triangles and the Star of David calls to the Mason's mind King David's dream of building a Temple, to his God, the Companions who rebuilt a desecrated Temple, and the finding of the Word that was lost. The gold, silver, and azure colors represent the sun, moon, and Worshipful Master, the first that rules the day, the second, the night, and the third, the lodge. While silver, connected with the letter Gimel or G and being surrounded on an azure ground by a golden glory, reminds the Mason of the letter G, a most conspicuous furnishing of a proper lodge room. The shield on the eagle's breast affirms by its colors, valor (red), purity (white), and justice (blue), and reminds the Mason of the cardinal virtues. The value of these colors, by gematria, is 103, the value of the phrase ehben ha-Adam (the stone of Adam) and suggests the perfect ashlar, or squared stone, of Freemasonry. One hundred and three is also the value of the noun bonaim, a Rabbinical word signifying 'builders, Masons.' Thus the national colors spell out, by gematria, the name of the fraternity. The scroll in the eagle's beak, bearing the words E Pluribus Unum (of many one) reminds him also of the unity which has made brothers of many.

...continued below

"On the reserve, is the All-Seeing Eye within a triangle surrounded by a golden glory. Besides the obvious Masonic significance of this design, Color reproductionit has a cabalistic value of seventy plus three plus two hundred, equaling two hundred and seventy-three which is the value of the phrase ehben mosu habonim (the stone which the builders refused) familiar to all Royal Arch Masons. It is also the value of the Hebrew proper noun Hiram Abiff, the architect of Solomon's Temple and the principal character of the legend used in the Master Mason degree. The triangle is isosceles, formed by two right triangles having sides of five, twelve, and thirteen units in length, illustrating the 47th Problem of Euclid. The triangle also represents the capstone of the unfinished pyramid and reminds the Mason of the immortality of the soul and that in eternity he will complete the capstone of his earthly labors according to the designs on the trestle-board of the Supreme Architect of the Universe. The unfinished pyramid cannot fail to remind him of the unfinished condition of the Temple when tragedy struck down its Master architect.

"The blaze of glory found on either side of the Great Seal cannot fail to remind the Mason of the Great Light in Masonry which is the rule and guide to faith and practice and without which no Masonic lodge can exist. It reminds him that only more light can dispel the pall of ignorance in which he stumbles until he enters the Celestial Lodge where all light is given."

The James D. Carter, 33°, G.'.C.'. who wrote the above, I believe, was the librarian at the House of the Temple.

In any case, it's an occult/esoteric/masonic take on the Great Seal, and I'm quite aware that it doesn't hold tangible weight in the eyes of academia or some sort of self-professed authority. Symbolism is best left to mystics, however - not historians.

Manly P. Hall was another Mason/Rosicrucian who held similar views (I'm assuming quite the same as Paul Foster Case), as does Hieronimus, the world's foremost expert on the Great Seal, and the likes of Jim Garrison, the head of the Gorbachev Foundation - see my link above - and even Willis Harman, illustrating that such views are commonplace in elite circles.

Here's a comment I posted on Skilluminati's Harman-Great Seal post:

Same old, same old. Manly P. Hall’s The Secret Destiny of America, Robert Hieronimus’ America’s Secret Destiny and Jim Garrison’s America as Empire: Global Leader or Rogue Power? Check it out ...

Hall: “On the reverse of our nation’s Great Seal is an unfinished pyramid to represent human society itself, imperfect and incomplete. Above floats the symbol of the esoteric orders, the radiant triangle with its all-seeing eye. ... There is only one possible origin for these symbols, and that is the secret societies which came to this country 150 years before the Revolutionary War. ... There can be no question that the great seal was directly inspired by these orders of the human Quest, and that it set forth the purpose for this nation. ...” (pp. 174, 181)

Hieronimus: “The Theosophical and Rosicrucian traditions hold that every nation has a spiritual destiny guided by a hierarchy of beings using all ethical means of manifesting the divine plan through the will of the nation’s leaders.” (p. 95)

“Marilyn Ferguson believes that we are ‘children of transition’

“[...] change in our cultural paradigm may mirror a change in American cultural symbolism. Hence the renewed interest in the seal’s reverse. According to [Willis] Harman (1988, 163), [ie Global Mind Change] the seal’s reverse ‘clearly proclaims the works of men (either individual character or external works) are incomplete unless they incorporate divine insight. This symbol is meant to indicate that the nation will flourish only as its leaders are guided by supraconscious intuition.’

“… Ferguson and Harman identify the contemporary transitional interval with the American revolutionary period from which the Great Seal emerged. They cite the motto Novus Ordo Seclorum as evidence that the nation was consciously conceived as a momentus step in the evolution of the human species.” (pp. 64-65)

Garrison: “ ... all Masons and Rosicrucians. They were all students of Bacon. They believed that what they were creating was the new Atlantis, the new Israel, the new Rome, the new Athens, and they consciously set forth to build a nation around light and power. Look on the back of a dollar bill and see the pyramid and the all-seeing Eye of Horus. It’s important for Americans to understand that we were born out of a mystical vision of human perfection that was basically Atlantean in its impulse. So the challenge today is to reconnect with the Wisdom Tradition that gave rise to Atlantis, that gave rise to the United States of America, and that is ultimately an esoteric pursuit. In order for us to survive the politics of Bush and the Neo-Conservatives we have to bring to the fore the wisdom of the founding fathers. That’s the connection with someone like Carolyn. She’s writing a book which I think will come out in 2005 on the sacred contract of America. It will be a sort of mystical history of the United States. What I’ve done in my book is to trace this Atlantean vision of Francis Bacon and tell the story of how Bacon influenced our founding fathers, and how we have a mystical vision as the origin of the American experiment.” ("A Conversation with Jim Garrison,” URL: /3yhhxx)

As I look over Hieronimus’ book, it seems he cribbed liberally from Harman, with four works cited in the bibliography. Hieronimus vision for the seal and America’s destiny has been in turn promulgated to Presidents and high-ranking politicians since the late 70s. Hieronimus has been the foremost expert on the Great Seal; he has counseled White House occupants on its meaning and has been giving speeches about it, everywhere, since he earned his PhD on the subject.

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


The "statement" was a bit more involved than what CN23 had meagerly quoted. I have a feeling you haven't gone to the link he provided and read the whole thing. If that is the case, here it is in its entirety:

I actually have the original copy of The New Age.

But there's a couple of problems with the article, even in the beginning of your quote:

"Among those who helped design the Great Seal of the United States the following are known to have been Masons: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, William Churchill Houston, and William Barton.

The problem here is that it really isn't true. They all served on the committee at different times to generate a seal, but none of them were really involved in the creation of the seal which was adopted. As I mentioned before, it was the work of two non-Masons, viz., Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

Whether they drew heavily upon Freemasonry in this work it is impossible to assert but when an informed Mason examines the Great Seal here is what he sees: On the obverse is an eagle whose dexter wing has thirty-two feathers, the number of ordinary degrees in Scottish Rite Freemasonry. The sinister wing has thirty-three feathers, the additional feather corresponding to the Thirty-third Degree of the same Rite conferred for outstanding Masonic service.

The brother who wrote the article here makes an interesting connection...but seems to have overlooked the pertinent fact: the Scottish Rite system of 33 degrees was not established until 1801. This was the result of merging two different French Rites. Since the 33 degree system of the Scottish Rite did not exist when the seal was created, it could not have inspired it.

The tail feathers number nine, the number of degrees in the Chapter, Council and Commandery of the York Rite of Freemasonry.

The author here apparently miscounted. The number of degrees in the Chapter, Council, and Commandery are actually 10.

CHAPTER:

1. Mark Master
2. Past Master
3. Most Excellent Master
4. Royal Arch Mason

COUNCIL:

5. Royal Master
6. Select Master
7. Super Excellent Master

COMMANDERY:

8. Illustrious Order of the Red Cross
9. Order of Malta
10. Order of Knights Templar

There are actually 11 degrees, if you count the degree of Knight of St. Paul, which is conferred during the Order of Malta ceremony.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
They all served on the committee at different times to generate a seal, but none of them were really involved in the creation of the seal which was adopted. As I mentioned before, it was the work of two non-Masons, viz., Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

OK, we're talking about Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, William Churchill Houston, and William Barton here, just to be clear.

As far as proven masons or not, I really don't care at this point. At the moment I take issue with your statement that "none of them were really involved in the creation of the seal." That's poppycock! William Barton and Charles Thomson were the designers/illustrators that contributed the most out of anyone - the pyramid side is Barton, basically, and the Eagle-side and mottoes are Thomson. Where's Jefferson's drawings? Where's Adams' drawings? If they do exist, I haven't seen them; and if so, their concepts certainly haven't made it into the final design.

See these pages: Thomson and Barton.

I'll admit Barton cribbed liberally from Hopkinson's earlier $50 bill design, but the fact remains that the ideas for the finalization of the Great Seal - and the implementation thereof - came from Barton and Thomson, not Adams and Jefferson.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
...33 degree system of the Scottish Rite did not exist when the seal was created

While this is indeed the case, it doesn't mean anything. The final design for the eagle side did not have 32 and 33 feathers on the wings. Every painting or realization of the seal, for quite some time, had the eagle feathers that were seemingly arbitrary. Moreover, the descriptions for the seal - a heraldic Blazon, as it's called - never specifically stated 32 and 33 feathers in the wings.

Thus, it was at a later point that the wings on the eagle were surreptitiously given the 32-feather and 33-feather treatment. Someone needs to document every single realizations of the seal to pinpoint exactly when this became "standard" practice. It may very well be a case of later Masons putting their own particular esoteric-spin upon the design.

Another later implementation imposed upon the design was the arrangement of the stars above the eagle's head. They were always 13 in number, but were never supposed to be placed in a geometric pattern, which would have gone against the rules of heraldry. Robert Scot, mason, engraver for the US, is responsible for the Hexagram pattern (ubiquitous in Masonic art) of the 13-star constellation arrangement. See "The Hexagram of Stars on the Great Seal."

Ha!

Originally posted by Fire_In_The_Minds_of_Men


As far as proven masons or not, I really don't care at this point. At the moment I take issue with your statement that "none of them were really involved in the creation of the seal." That's poppycock!

You're right, I didn't really word that very well. What I meant to say was that the concept of the symbols was not their work. Their work was organizing and drawing them. The basic concept came from others; for example, it was Pierre Du Simitière who came up with the idea of using the Eye of Providence in the Seal.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I think you are a knucklehead. These psychos are luciferians and are totally evil. They hate Jesus and are going to hell. I think your view is wrong to some extent and correct to some extent. I am not sure if this usa was founded with these evil intentions, but it is possible. You seem not to be a christian. Please google Boris Pilipchuck and Ian McCormack and others like Mary Baxter and Don Piper. Jesus loves us all and gives us eternal life with him. James Hunt

This is insanity. The United States was founded by Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer and his gang.

I think they want their country back and they look pissed!

[edit on 8-10-2008 by bruxfain]

reply to post by masonica_esoterica


The Washington Monument is 555 feet tall... Work that out in inches... Go Figure!

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I have read where these secret societies have ruled or attempted to rule for up to 6000 years. They have attempted to combine Paganism with Christianity to form a one world religion to go with a one world rule, and they still are trying to do this today, I believe the Trinity is apart of this conspiracy and just one example of their efforts.

Funny. After all the evil crap he and Cheney cooked up in their first term, he could no longer even dare ask for God to bless the USofA!

Man I am so glad those losers are gone, and wiped away!

reply to post by mcguyvermanolo

Actually it's 555-ft, 5 & 1/8-inches

Looking back over this thread I see masons claiming this and that only to be corrected by the outstanding members here.

If you have nothing to hide, why be a secret? We are surrounded by symbolism, too much to just be a coincidence and much of this symbolism is of masonic secret societies.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
If you have nothing to hide, why be a secret?

We're not. Ask us.

We are surrounded by symbolism, too much to just be a coincidence and much of this symbolism is of masonic secret societies.

Except I'd wager 99% of the symbolism that surrounds you that you suppose is somehow Masonic really isn't at all. It's nothing more than ghost stories conspiracy theorists tell their kids at night.