The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

reply to post by InSpiteOf


you mean this ISN'T in skunkworks? OMG, I surely thought it was after the OP talked about recon sats in the 20-30 era...

thats is right up there with Gen George Custer fighting at Little big horn in his flying car, My Grandad used to tall me about it all the time when I was little, so it MUST be true doncha know

reply to post by benign.psychosis


You're trying to sound all mysterious and impressive in an attempt to confuse anyone disputing you. (IMO)

"The truth is in the action.." OK, we get it. That still answers zero questions. The only actions that you have done here is start a post on a sensitive subject that would definately bring in a lot of viewers and then do absolutely nothing to support it. Infact, ATS member "scientist" has done a much better job than you at supporting your own views.

Also, I recognise one of the pictures you posted. The one where the man is having his beard cut off. It is actually a jewish man and he had his rather long beard cut-off by that nazi thug in an intimidating and bullying manner. His only intention was to humiliate. I have seen footage of that very incident and he wasn't simply giving him a shave.

You took some photos from the holocaust and sugar coated them to make the nazis look innocent. You can do that with literally any photo on the internet.

ALSO (though this just may be nit-picking now), I think the title of this thread is all wrong. It says that the Holocaust was "carried out" by the allies. That implies that the allies planned it and then took action to carry it out. But in your first post you just say that their bombing cut off their supplies. Personally I don't see that as them carrying it out at all.

I'm not agreeing with the OP.

But, what comes to mind when you see this photo?




Japanese-Americans did get the shaft.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by radardog]

Originally posted by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by scientist
The point being, we did not intervene in the war because of some moral stance. My own opinion is that we didn't intervene on purpose, until it was extremely advantageous to do so.

Capitalists the world round saw NAZI germany as a bulwark against communism. IMO, this is why US business interests were still allowed to trade Oil, Computers, Finances, etc with Germany.

On topic: It seems that the OP is unwilling to provide any evidence to back up his/her claim, also, they refuse to deal with any serious questions that oppose his/her POV. So here's my vote for moving this thread right to skunkworks.

The point of view has no relavence.

When a raindrop falls, it falls. This is reality.

When a human describes it as beautiful, it is not.

When a human describes it as horrible, it is not.

When a human professes that it is from god, it is not.

When a human professes that it is not from god, it is not.

What happens... it has.

This is the truth. Belief is of no relavavnce.

What is said, what is intened, what is implied, what is promised - it is not reality.

Reality is the action.

The action - that is real. The action - it's effect - is real.

When we look back at WWII the methods of the times where based on what we had to work with technology wise.

The OP's insistence that we had satellites during WWII is a very good example of a person who designs, builds and then lives in their little box of reality that has no resemblance to the reality of the world.

People like the OP think that a statement like his satellite one is just a simple slip of satellite technology back 30 or 40 years when in reality it is a slip of basically ALL technology back 30 or 40 years and that would be impossible to keep a secret as the OP feels is his other quick answer to explain this issue.

If a person spent just one minute and thought about every aspect of technology that goes into a spy satellite (one that takes pictures) to build it, get it into space, communicate with it, and finally operate it this quickly shows how extremely removed the OP is from reality.

To look again at the technologies of WWII we saw the infant state of radar form and crude bombing methods with dumb bombs that during the run-in the bombardier would pick a high point of ground to start the carpet bombing of their objective.

To bomb critical infrastructure and supply lines was all part of disrupting the huge Nazis war machine, and the large level of collateral damage was once again due to what limited tools were available for that time. Where The OP starts to wander off back into his little box of self created reality is that he paints a picture that the Germans did not want to systematically kill the Jews in a genocide campaign.

Like the OP’s error in assuming that a satellite can be a small self-contained form of technology he also fails to account for everything that lead up to the holocaust, and concentration camps were also not simple self-contained events that can be debated without looking at the whole picture of what lead up to those events.

Another murky spot for the OP is I’m not sure if he is stating that the Allies targeted camp supplies on purpose to kill Jews, or if the killing of the Jews was collateral damage so to speak from a nationwide bombing of infrastructure and supply lines.

In either case why would the Jews suffer so much (40% of their population) and the rest of the population did not suffer to the same extent since bombing was a nationwide event affecting ALL supply lines?

To show a little of the picture of what LEAD to the death camps we can start in Poland in 1939 where it was estimated that 3.3 million Jews lived and the majority of them died before the war’s end. To the OP, since the allies didn’t fight or bomb Poland why were so many dying there too?


Chronology of Some of the Anti-Jewish Measures in Poland:

October 1939:
Jews are liable for forced labor. They can be picked up off the streets for work at manual labor jobs such as digging ditches, shoveling snow, and cleaning streets.
Synagogues destroyed throughout General Gouvernement.
Jews forbidden from certain areas of major cities in General Gouvernement.

November 1939:
Jews must wear identifying star on their clothing.
Every Jewish community must elect a Jewish Council. After the formation of the ghettos the Jewish Councils became the governing bodies, trying to provide social services, but also serving the German authorities by delivering Jews for forced labor, and deportations to the death camps.
All Jewish bank deposits frozen. Jews can withdraw only $50.00 per week.

December 1939:
Jews can not change residence.
Curfew for Jews enforced from 9 PM to 5 AM.

January 1940:
Jews can not travel by train without special permission.
Jews are required to register ownership of all property, including clothing, furniture, and jewelry.

April 1940:
First major ghetto built, at Lodz. Curfews in the ghettos are enforced from 7 PM to 7 AM.

October 1940:
Warsaw ghetto built. The city's Jewish population is sealed inside.
Mass deportations of Jews, Gypsies, and Poles from other Nazi-occupied countries to the General Gouvernement area of Poland begins. Since the death camps are not built yet, they are first sent to the overcrowded ghettos.

March 1941:
Crackow ghetto built.

October 1941:
Jews forbidden to leave ghettos on pain of death.
Gentiles who knowingly help Jews are subject to the death penalty.

December 1941:
Lvov ghetto formed, the third largest in Poland. Most of the ghettos in Poland were established by the beginning of 1942.
Death camps begin operations. Poland is the site of six major concentration camps set up to kill Jews: Lublin, Kulmhof, Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, and Auschwitz.

March 1942:
Jews from Lublin ghetto deported to Belzec death camp.

July-December 1942:
300,00 people deported from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka death camp.

March 1943:
Crackow ghetto liquidated.

April 1943:
Attempt to liqudate Warsaw ghetto is met with unexpected armed resistance.

May 1943:
The Warsaw ghetto is liquidated.

June 1943:
The Lvov ghetto is liquidated.

Late 1943 until liberation in 1945:
The pattern is repeated in every city with a ghetto population: Those able to work are organized into slave labor battalions to produce goods for the German military. Everyone else must fend for themselves. Food supplies are at starvation levels. Lack of sanitation and overcrowding promote the rapid spread of disease, especially typhus, resulting in an extremely high mortality rate. Periodic mass deportations from the ghettos to the death camps are followed by an influx of newly arrived Jews from all areas of the German Reich.


[edit on 26-12-2007 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by benign.psychosis


and your inaction speaks Volumes

on a side note, how old are you anyways? you seems to be less then 20 years old

Have you ever seen a Hawaiian sunset? have you ever had tea in China, Bolute (sp?) in the Philippines, been to the outback in Australia? Have you enjoyed a glass of red wine on the banks of the Seine in France, spent a day in Denmark prowling the redlight district ( and hash bars ) seen the morning mist on the fjords of Norway? I have done all of these "actions" and many more.

Tell what "actions" you have done, please enlighten me, oh Worldly one......

Well.

We've gone from "this is indisputable" to psychobabble BS, with no substance inbetween.

And whats been achieved? Benign.psychosis has had his/her 5 minutes in the spotlight, degenerated the memories of those who fought and died in WW2 fighting the Nazi's and offered nothing in return except gibberish and rhetoric. - it all amounts to nothing.

Somebody once told me that the original concentration camps were invented by the British.

Dunno how true that is...

Originally posted by thedigirati
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

and your inaction speaks Volumes

on a side note, how old are you anyways? you seems to be less then 20 years old

Have you ever seen a Hawaiian sunset? have you ever had tea in China, Bolute (sp?) in the Philippines, been to the outback in Australia? Have you enjoyed a glass of red wine on the banks of the Seine in France, spent a day in Denmark prowling the redlight district ( and hash bars ) seen the morning mist on the fjords of Norway? I have done all of these "actions" and many more.

Tell what "actions" you have done, please enlighten me, oh Worldly one......

Does what I have done matter? does it impact my action?

Does it matter if I live in a trailer, an apartment, a house, or a mansion?

Does it matter if I've been a garbage man, a soldier, an engineer, or a CEO?

Does it matter if I have killed, if I have saved, or if I have done neither?

Does it matter if I have lost a leg, an arm, or both in combat?

Does it matter if I was born disabled, bound to a wheelchair?

Does it matter if I became paralyzed after 16 years of life?

Does it matter if my mother was murdered?

Does ir matter if I had children who were killed by disease?

Does it matter?

Is it what is truely important to you?

To judge?

To seperate?

Does it matter - to you- to catagorize a human life?

That is the question.

This is the action.

It is your action.

I think you are deliberately trying to frustrate other posters now. I am done with this thread.

Goodnight all

Same here... he hasn't a leg to stand on so he's just trying to obscure and obstruct.

This thread has lost all interest to me. So long.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


yes it does mater, you make outlandish claims, but don't have any evidence to back them up.

have you lived you whole short life in a cardboard box? In a library? As a student? As a garbage man, all these thing color your perceptions of the world around you. It teaches us the CONTEXT of your statements, from whence you get your point of view. without it there is no communication because there is no understanding of your CONTEXT.

the past makes who you are now, that is the "action" that causes you to post in the first place, without that CONTEXT, your words are like urine on a windy day, it exists for only a moment, then is blown away to nothing

[edit on 26-12-2007 by thedigirati]

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
The action - that is real. The action - it's effect - is real.

But how can you relay what the action is without using your point of view? You cant, meaning all the BS your spouting now is meaningless.

So with your attempt to educate us to understand the importance of actions, (something which is a belief IE. you beleave in the importance of actions) you've contradicted yourself.

You went from providing an argument to providing psychobable. So much for relaying the truth.

Edit to add: Thanks to Skeptic Overlord for fixing the title and putting this thread where it belongs. Hopefully this thread will be laid to rest quickly as I see it going nowhere fast.

[edit on 26-12-2007 by InSpiteOf]

it is unfortunate, that those...

They will igore the real,

To accept the easy,

It is the way of authority, the way of power.

Offer the ease of belief, so that many will follow.

The way of religion, the way of government - of power.

The way of truth and consensus.

Accept the truth, accept what is real.

This is our trap.

In this, we are not free.

In this, we will become what we fear.

We become believers.

We do not believe in what is real - it is.

The subject is not relavent - it is only the action.

You know there are so many things that disprove your theory/opinion (which is all it is) that it is pitiful. These include Holocaust survivors (that would prob slap your face if they read this) Former Nazi themselves, who gave (recorded) testimony at Nuremburg and liberators themselves. This is very disrespectful to all involved...and most of all I believe you know that the holocaust is true. Lets just look.

"November 1938 the Nazis took to the streets of Germany and Austria, attacked Jews, broke into synagogues and private houses, murdered, destoyed, and burnt Torah scrolls. The Nazis called the night Crystalnacht – Crystal Night – because of the millions of pieces of glass which remained after the destruction the Nazis themselves wrought. On that one night, 1,300 Jews were killed, thousands injured, arrested and deported to concentration camps, and 1,574 synagogues were burnt or destroyed. German police and firefighters who witnessed the destruction were silent and did not intervene."

The war with the allies was propaganda at this point and Hitler ordered this to purge the fatherland of the Jews, which he himself saw as a economical stumbing block to German economy. Hitler also did not use the wealth of the jewish people which he stole from for German economic rejuvination but to fund his war machine. There are still plenty of records that show that the Third Reich was funneling stolen Jewish wealth through Switzerland (A Neutral Country- yeah right) Including Gold teeth yanked out of the heads of Holocaust victims. Your theory is even more disgusting than the truth, which is horrible in itself.

The truth is self evident through just a meager investigation. Seek it and purge your mind of this junk.....If you believe this it is only because you are wanting to use this as an excuse for some other way of life you are leading or that someone else wants you to lead and is lying to you....

Here is a theory for you: Hitler was a traitor to the German people. He started a war based on a lie he sold to the German People. He actually crippled the German Economy, enslaved German families for his war effort, and murdered german people (men, women and children) who did not go along with his personal beliefs and none of it was for the Fatherland. All of it was because he was a big baby who blamed his own jewish blood for the fact that he did not get the type of childhood he thought he was deserving of, so he planned to expel and punish what he saw as the blame for his own problems, which he was to weak to deal with himself, thus causing the murder, persecution and wide spread destruction of not only Jewish people, but the people of the world.




[edit on 26-12-2007 by birchtree]

[edit on 26-12-2007 by birchtree]

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Hi There,

I must say that having read through this thread, I now feel sullied and soiled. The OP has deigned it his intention to provide a most contemptuous and asinine thread. Clearly the truth is in his action, which is to create a highly ignorant persepective of a well-documented, well-evidenced event of systematic slaughter commited by one racial identity upon that of many others.

History is littered with the corpses of wholesale slaughters and massacres accountable to the self-serving power-addictions of certain individuals that are rightly condemned and villified by the historical records: yet still, mankind throws up such people whom continue to haunt and plague us with their horrendous machinations and inhumane ideology...genocide (a term coined by Lemkin in 1943), is an appropriate word that lends its usage to contemporary events as well as to historical ones. The problem is that genocide always begins in the minds of those that perpetrate it, but never commited (in their minds) as contextually genocidal, but simply as appropriate measures to be taken to support the 'intent' of the ideology from which the slaughtering is made both consumable and digestible.

The paradox is that ideologies are not born genocidal, but become so as they unfold and expand into regionalities; but the one factual note of significance is that genocide is always committed by the 'stronger' upon the 'weaker'. Lemkin's address to the Legal Council for the League of Nations in 1943, in which he was proposing to the Council to make illegal crimes that fit the term genocide, concerned himself with the massacre of the Assyrians in Iraq in 1933, which ironically, is the year in which the Nazis began their own systematic genocidal cleansing of certain people types under the term of eugenics. Hitler's ideology of a pure Aryan race is what led to the Nazi concentration camps, and to the Jewish Holocaust, and of course, encapsulating these, the European theatre of WW2.

Of course, if Hitler was the only one whom believed in the pure Aryan race ideology, very little would have transpired, but he wasn't the only one, and he surrounded himself with those whom shared in his view, and they disseminated their ideology down through the growing ranks of the expanding Nazi party, whose adherents eagerly carried out their orders.

Although it has become known as the Jewish Holocaust - for Jews were the primary targets of the Nazis, other minorities were also placed into the 'cleansing' program. Bear in mind, that Hitler wasn't seeking to 'relocate' the Jews, or other so-called 'defectives' to some other part of the world, his program was to achieve total and unambiguous cleansing of the Fatherland (and eventually the whole of Europe), not only of the Jewish presence physically, but also ideologically, historically. It was a program of wholesale eradication off the face of the planet! He wanted their extinction...nothing less!

The 'deniers' of these appalling events can obsfucate and spin them all they wish. They can take the records of historical facts and re-rationalise them to fit their own blinkered and blurry panoramas. However, when they seek to disseminate such denial, and dress it up in seeming rationality, they require rebuttals applied with the same force the allies brought to bear upon the Nazi cleansing machine. To deny the holocaust is to support the ideology out of which it came about, and rightfully and humanely, we must deny the denier.

I can understand where Benign is coming from one needs to look at the bigger picture, wars do not just happen they are planned and finnaced from the outset. Hitler may have started ww2 but who gave him the money to do so, who was to gain the most from such a conflict, there are two clear winners in the WW2 conflict and that is the USA and the birth of its super power status and the state of Israel, all other countries involved in that conflict lost out both financialy and in human terms.

So as Benign rightly states look at the real facts of what happened and not the window dressing, who were the bankers who provided the means to prosecute war, who gained the most. Just like now in Iraq many die and suffer but who makes the money and who made it happen, wars are planned by the wealthy and fought by the poor end of.

If blame can be laid at the doorstep of annother all the better, but people do not learn or dont want to, 9/11 was planned and executed by those who want war for proffit and greed and thats exactly what they have got.

i see the staff on this board only agrees with the views of benign.psychosis because the keep deleting my posts whitout telling me why maby the staff should think abouth how many people he offends with this thread